SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm tempted to rasp out "Seven days" in a creepy little child whisper like in the movie "The Ring."

Only it's 9 days away and that spoils the joke a little.

In any case, "Nine days."

Her grandmother just got diagnosed with congestive heart failure after a three day stint at the hospital and doesn't have long. She will probably take a plane out to see her soon. This is not a stalling tactic but reasonably puts stuff on ice. Life and death happen. No need to pile on.

As always, thinking about you and your young family TIF. Hope this holiday season treats everyone all right.

We had an MC session. Surprisingly my wife had a plan ready early to talk about with the MC. She stated that she felt overwhelmed by learning my true feelings and asking her to take the lead on healing my trust in her. She said it was vague and wasn't sure what it meant. After some more thinking, she realized it is on her to figure out what leading the healing is, and to do so. It's a pretty good plan that involves an active job search and going through our books again. It includes meeting all my needs and working toward my wants. It includes not making friends with APs friends. I think it shows a lot of effort that she put this together after getting the news about her grandmother, especially since I said, "I can just be here for you right now and we can figure us out later."

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 1:59 PM, December 4th (Friday)]

Sounds like there are good words there. I know you know that they have to be followed with actions otherwise the words are worthless. You have been setting a good example with what you told her about supporting her through her grandmothers issues. It’s unfortunate if that is what it takes to make her want to try and treat you in a similar way.

I hope she follows through. As always I still believe she’s been given too many chances and you should be open with her about the fact that these words should have come 9-12 months ago and she should already be long into fixing what was broke inside her.

All cheaters offered R are given too many chances from the get go.

Offering R at all is one too many chances. As is often pointed out here, there are essential no stories of regret related to getting a D from a cheater.

Breaking my own rule of comparisons here, other WSs have broken NC worse, other WSs have had multiple affairs, other WSs have completely lied during false R prior to R while having ongoing EA/PA. Somehow they get their head out their ass and somehow their BS finds the good grace to forgive them, even when there is no way I could have done it. Maybe I've pushed through and accepted shit other people here would have already walked away from. I can live with that.

I have given my WW more chances than she deserves, yes. But anyone here that has not gone straight to D has done the same.

The divorce letter might not have quite had the same impact as actually filing, but I think it has had a very real impact. I do not trust my WW, and she has fully absorbed that information, and is now putting in at least some mental effort. Hopefully to be followed by more actions.

It's been almost a year of recovery and limbo (during what amounts to a fundamentally hard year on everyone). R is only just now, potentially beginning. It's a long ass painful road I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I seem to have, at the very least, resolved many of the issues I brought up from the start of the thread. It took a divorce letter to get the hard boundaries written and clarified like I asked for. I appreciate all the advice here. I know all of this can turn around and just be a repeat of the last time she started a job search. I know this could all just be one big fancy version of the dance we already did, with written instead of verbal agreements that she unilaterally breaks again. I get it. Feel free to keep the 2x4s coming. Nothing is actually solved until she has a new job. I get it.

Nothing is actually solved until she has a new job. I get it.

I'll disagree here. Whether or not she gets a new job is not the issue.

The issue is that you need to get to a place of acceptance in your own self Tif. Whether that means accepting that she is not capable of giving you what you need for R to move forward, or whether that means accepting what she IS willing to do, or whether you decide to file... you just need to be able to make that decision in your own being and be okay with the fallout, however it goes. It's okay of you aren't there yet. It's a process to get to that place and sometimes it means taking 5 steps backwards and 2 steps forwards for a while.

IMHO, the important thing is that you are able to make the choice that is best for YOU, regardless of what she does or doesn't do. Because you can make whatever conditions you want to for R, but you have zero control over whether she can or will do any of them.

Good work TIF. I hope she follows thru. If not, my opinion only, you should walk away head held high.

as you know I went thru something similar last September but then my WW created the elaborate psycho drama around the polygraph and dragged that out for four more months before failing it.

That was the final nail for me.

All cheaters offered R are given too many chances from the get go.

Offering R at all is one too many chances.

Are you saying we should all D? If so, you're wrong.

As is often pointed out here, there are essential no stories of regret related to getting a D from a cheater.

Well, first, would there be? Would someone D, feel regret, and then resurrect their SI membership?

And what about the BSes who start down the D path and then R? Does that not imply 'regret related to getting a D'?

What about the couples who remarry after D? Does that not imply 'regret related to getting a D'?

There is simply no single response to infidelity that is best for every BS.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:32 PM, December 5th (Saturday)]

normal for WW to

trickle truth

break NC

lie

repeatedly through recovery for affairs cause addictive brain

chemistry. so the addict, WW as all addicts back slide because

their body craves the fix that being in an affair.

alcoholics, druggies, even cigarette smokers have hard times

breaking free form their addiction. normal response.

though through the decades i have seen many WW eventually

break free from their addiction, recover their marriage, and

become better wives.

mistakes where made entering an affair so logical that

mistakes will be made ending an affair.

Are you saying we should all D? If so, you're wrong.

Well, first, would there be? Would someone D, feel regret, and then resurrect their SI membership?

And what about the BSes who start down the D path and then R? Does that not imply 'regret related to getting a D'?

What about the couples who remarry after D? Does that not imply 'regret related to getting a D'?

There is simply no single response to infidelity that is best for every BS.

I'm saying D is always justified and no WS deserves R. It's a gift, often given multiple times by BSs.

I don't know why someone might regret D and resurrect their SI account. It just seems quite rare to see "don't D, I did and regret it" and quote common to see "I shouldn't have wasted time in limbo/false R"

I think divorcing then remarrying shows R is possible even after D. I would say it doesn't suggest regret about D at all. It's strong enforcement of consequences. Likely setting the WS straight a lot faster than the path I took, for example.

I agree no single response is best and we all have to follow the path that is right for us and our relationship.

Thanks for the clarification. Seriously.

I agree that D is always at least a decent way out of infidelity, if the BS does the necessary healing work. I agree that WSes aren't entitled to R.

My best wishes to you and your family This0Is0Fine, through your wife's grandma passing. I also hope that when it comes to your marriage, your wife is finally turning the corner.

I had a bit of a revelation at IC the other day.

Now, I know that the BS is NOT to blame for the affair. The thread that pulls through this whole thing, my WW's FOO, her affair, her frankly shit attempts at recovering. It's her inability to share pain with me specifically.

She refused to share her pain with me over her mother, though I wasn't very receptive, she could have pushed through. She refuses to share the pain she has caused me in the A and the pain she feels over it.

It's not that she is incapable of sharing pain with anyone, but she fears that sharing pain with her spouse (myself) specifically leads to bad results. Specifically a bad marriage, divorce, then suicide.

This single item by itself explains essentially all of her behavior front to back. I have shared this insight with my WW, and she agrees. She also agreed to work on removing that block as she thinks about what it means to lead the repair efforts.

It's her inability to share pain with me specifically

I thought it was more her inability to empathize when you share your pain that was holding up the show?

It's a two way street on this one. Both receiving and giving are parts of "sharing" pain.

The reason she isn't "empathizing with me", especially considering she is normally a very empathetic person, is because she refuses to share pain with me. She recognizes she had an A, that it was wrong, and that she won't do it again. She refuses to understand my pain

She can empathize with me if I am stressed, worried, anxious, etc. She is refusing/blocking any empathy related directly to pain/suffering.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 12:27 PM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

I don't know. My WW suffered through caregiving and loss. She shared every step of the way, all her confusion, pain, exhaustion. She talked, I listened, I supported and gave advice when asked. It made no difference. I think you're saying you're not to blame, but your WWs inability to share and include you was a problem for the M? If so, I think even problems for the M are not reasons for affair. The problem is the unfaithful spouses own failure of values, selfishness, and poor choices. Am I on the right track?

All cheaters offered R are given too many chances from the get go. Offering R at all is one too many chances.

I get what you are saying here, Thisisfine. And it's very true.

Seems that you have had to defend yourself a lot. At the same time I do think the people who are pushing you just want to see you get the results you want.

At the same time, you are right in that many of us would not have stayed married or even gotten to the point of R without having messy stages. I see you holding your boundaries more and more. I know that there is a lot of back and forth because logic and emotion rarely agree, and we all have to get to the place in our own mind if we are done or not. It's a process that happens on both sides, I would just encourage you to keep your eyes on what you need/require in this situation. You have a lot of empathy for her it seems and that can be dangerous territory.

What I am finding it's most like to me (and I say this very loosely) is more of a parent/child relationship. I don't mean I feel like I am his mother, not at all. It's just when we had to give our kids tough love sometimes it meant that we have the goal in mind rather than their temporary feelings. You almost have to detach from their reactions to things, like we do with our children. I am not at all suggesting we parent our WS, not at all. But, we do set our rules, with consequences, and we don't engage with them on the struggle they may have to meet that rule. I don't know if I am explaining it well, but I find as I do it that's the only other experience I have had prior that feels somewhat similiar.

Apparition, in this case I'm not trying to broaden my WW's individual experiences and motivations to other WSs.

Yes my WW was selfish and made poor choices and had/has shitty boundaries. I know that I'm not to blame for those shitty choices. In attempts at R she has continued to be selfish and make poor choices. Now, it's easy to say, "Oh she is just a shitty person that is selfish and makes poor choices". Sure, and dump her, and once cheater always a cheater. On and on.

That doesn't really help if the goal is to reach a shared understanding. The realization is that there is an underlying failure in the M that was part of the motivation for the A. That SAME underlying failure isn't leading to more As but has been the block in having a real R.

Pointing out and understanding this point around her neither allowing herself to share pain with me, nor allowing herself to feel my pain, makes it something that stretches out over everything. This isn't a personal attack on her value or character. Understanding this as more fundamental problem related to her interactions with me in the M, makes R much more likely. Hell, she could fix her boundary problems, and this would still exist.

It will be much easier to get her to share my pain if she understands this is a broader emotional failing, rather than "You just don't understand how bad you hurt me." It's, "You need to stop refusing to share pain".

This might be a completely useless bit of information for other BSs. For me, it makes a ton of sense.

One thing I’’m learning is that every affair, every recovery, and every divorce are as different as the people involved. The he details do matter. At 1st all I saw were the common behaviors, patterns, and choices. There do seem to be some “best practices”, but R doesn’t come in a shoe size. Makes a lot of sense what you just explained with the added context. You seem to have found a helpful insight for your R and M.