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TIF.

I’m sorry but marriage (in your case) sounds exhausting. I give you credit for hanging in there. She’s more of a child you are trying to raise than a partner.

I refuse to be my H’s “mother”. He’s an adult. He either gets it or I have to end the marriage b/c I don’t have the patience and understanding any longer. He zapped my last ounce of understanding (in anything related to infidelity) on dday2.

"No friendships with AP's friends" is an agreed upon boundary.

It has been exhausting. Worn down to the bone.

All this would be somewhat encouraging at least a little bit except for one thing... she still works with the AP and has in reality shown very little acknowledgement of how hurtful and actually disrespectful that is to to you.

He is still in your lives as more than just a concept of her past painful choices. She has the ability to see him and no matter how much she promises to keep things “business only” the fact that they interact in any way,’in my opinion, will keep you two in this awful limbo for years to come.

The fact that she does not recognize this would be for me the single reason that I, if I were her BS, would find my path away from her. But you are not me. I know....

What are you going to do when WW cheats again and your mom isn't there to help you out with the kids because you've pissed her off?

What are you going to do when WW cheats again and your mom isn't there to help you out with the kids because you've pissed her off?

I never did end up leaning on my mom to provide help with the kids to get through divorce or separation, though it was available. My mom is very hard to piss off.

I'd like to just say, "Well if she cheats again it's over!" I think that's true.

That said, I've caved and forgiven in places where I thought if I didn't get something it would be over. Certainly I have more than enough to complain about. I'm lucky enough to not have a DDay 2 so far, yet many people seem to work through that...

Westway, I know you and I have both been betrayed, but there are some qualitative and, to be perfectly honest, quantitative differences. I do not in any way envy your position, but I'd like to believe there is a whole other level of clarity when it turns out your WS is a serial cheater. My WW has not shown herself to be a serial cheater.

I'd like to believe she won't cheat on me again. Right now, I don't believe she INTENDS to cheat on me again. But in practice, she started her last affair with intent to start an affair. Maybe the things she learned, the counseling, the more open communication means something and she will recognize when a friendship is on the cusp of crossing that boundary. She will say, "Ah ha, this isn't an appropriate friendship and I'm committed to my husband." That would be nice.

She has improved in important ways. Our conflicts have been more productive and she has been more ready to drop her defensiveness, accept that she hurt me very deeply, and be there to comfort me. Something that was desperately missing for almost a year.

Yesterday, my anxiety levels were through the roof related more to work, but it tends to spiral. She saw I was stressed and dropped something she was doing to just reassure me about our relationship, build me up as a good father and worker, and tell me things will be ok. It was really nice, and previously she would be avoidant if I was in an anxious mood.

Is it all hopium? I don't know. This does seem like a difference compared to waiting until I exploded again and she was backed against the wall.

How is this different from every other time this has happened?

In the past, overand over, she realizes she has to reign you in, so she says some of the right things..she love bombs..she gives you hope..and you jump all over it, stop the polygraph, stop the divorce, stop the distancing and detaching, and after awhile you find yourself exactly where you were just a few days ago. With a WW who is sorry she got caught,only because of the temporary consequences in her life, one who dismisses YOU(not just your pain), and you wind up more hurt,and feeling played all over again.

How is this time different? What BIG things has she done differently this time? Little things are just that..little. And they mean nothing, because that's what she's done in the past. So what big things is she doing to make you believe this time she actually gets it?

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:35 PM, January 13th (Wednesday)]

This0Is0Fine, what about her leaving her job. Any updates there?

I don't know if I am seeing any real progress. Every time you seem resolute on moving on, she does the following: She insists you take a puff of the Hopium, and her proprietary blend seems to be pretty strong. But then a few days later you are back where you started.

Maybe with the Holidays past us and hopefully any trips or whatnot out of the way, this time really will be put up or shut up.

Actually leaving? I don't know. She is frequently at least looking at jobs. Which is better than before, but it isn't a hard commitment.

This0Is0Fine, I am finding it shocking that after all this, you have not insisted upon stronger conditions for you to stay. As in, your WW must do more to protect both herself and you and have specific plans to leave her job.

Meanwhile, the central problem in all this is that you still do not know if your WW's priorities and values have truly changed. There may be evidence she has, but it doesn't seem all that compelling. Who comes first in your WW's eyes--you as her husband, or WW's friends. What will she prioritize--keeping you and your marriage safe from lying and cheating, or keeping her wayward friends' secrets safe from "Captain Infidelity".

You have had several D-Days this year, but in your case, the theme of the D-Days has been repeated "WTF?!" moments where you discover more stuff about your WW's circle of female friends and the moral filth they are living in, and moreover, how accepting your WW herself is of all this filth. Also, included in your D-Days are too many instances where it is all too clear that you aren't your WW's top priority.

It's your life. But I do hope moving forward, that if your WW lets you down, that you express your anger/hurt/unwillingness to accept this, more strongly than you have been.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:38 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]

I’m currently browsing 10 million dollar mansions on Zillow. It doesn’t mean I am seriously on the market to buy anything.

On November 13 (over two months ago), you posted:

Look, you are all giving me advice on the precept that I'm going to cave again. Which is fair. I've done nothing but cave and cave and cave.

She probably thinks I'm going to cave. Hard to blame her when that's all I've done so far.

I'm not going to cave. I have not withdrawn the request for a divorce. I have not "agreed" to anything with respect to reconciliation. The end of our brief time apart will either yield a path to R or D. I'm done with limbo and I'm not going to cave again.

I do not remember how WW met her OM though if it was

they were co-workers or he was a supplier or customer she

must leave that job.

Westway, I know you and I have both been betrayed, but there are some qualitative and, to be perfectly honest, quantitative differences. I do not in any way envy your position, but I'd like to believe there is a whole other level of clarity when it turns out your WS is a serial cheater. My WW has not shown herself to be a serial cheater.

I'd like to believe she won't cheat on me again. Right now, I don't believe she INTENDS to cheat on me again. But in practice, she started her last affair with intent to start an affair. Maybe the things she learned, the counseling, the more open communication means something and she will recognize when a friendship is on the cusp of crossing that boundary. She will say, "Ah ha, this isn't an appropriate friendship and I'm committed to my husband." That would be nice.

She has improved in important ways. Our conflicts have been more productive and she has been more ready to drop her defensiveness, accept that she hurt me very deeply, and be there to comfort me. Something that was desperately missing for almost a year.

Yesterday, my anxiety levels were through the roof related more to work, but it tends to spiral. She saw I was stressed and dropped something she was doing to just reassure me about our relationship, build me up as a good father and worker, and tell me things will be ok. It was really nice, and previously she would be avoidant if I was in an anxious mood.

Is it all hopium? I don't know. This does seem like a difference compared to waiting until I exploded again and she was backed against the wall.

A lot of people have the impression that I am one of those BSs who doesn't believe a person can redeem themselves. I actually do, because back when I was 19-20 y.o. I was told by many who knew me that I was unredeemable. I was a bad kid. Really bad: gang affiliate, drug dealing, violence, theft, racketeering, running numbers... you name it, I was into it. But I went to jail for a few months and during that time I had a chance to think about where my life was going and decided I didn't want that life. Add in a few mentors who extended grace to me and guided me towards education and spirituality and I was able to pull myself up and out of that mess, and today I'm a law abiding schlub. So I am one of those guys who does believe a wayward spouse can redeem themselves if they really want it. I don't see where your WW really wants to do the work to redeem herself.

I am all for giving a person a second chance. I wished I could have done that for my cheating xWW, but her offenses to our marriage were so egregious and long-running that I could not in good conscience stay with her and hope she would change. When she basically admitted she could not an would not change, I pulled the plug on it. I think this in some ways is your situation also. Your WW is only going to do the minimum of what she has to do to heal your marriage.

[This message edited by Westway at 9:04 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]

On November 13 (over two months ago), you posted:

Look, you are all giving me advice on the precept that I'm going to cave again. Which is fair. I've done nothing but cave and cave and cave.

She probably thinks I'm going to cave. Hard to blame her when that's all I've done so far.

I'm not going to cave. I have not withdrawn the request for a divorce. I have not "agreed" to anything with respect to reconciliation. The end of our brief time apart will either yield a path to R or D. I'm done with limbo and I'm not going to cave again.

Following that week of separation she did come up with a plan, ask for my list of needs and wants, and is currently trying to stick to that plan and meeting my needs (that include no friendships with AP's friends).

So, I would say that there is now an "agreed path to R". We are on the path but have had setbacks (I have previously said that we didn't seem to be making progress). This has made it difficult to continue and believe that we will achieve it. The lack of gift at Christmas was a significant hiccup, but at the end of the day, not a dealbreaker. She apologized for the error and bought me a gift. She made significant repair attempts after we talked about it. Yes, it would be better to not have to talk about it then have a repair.

Things seem to be improving because she is making a more concerted effort to care about me and make me a priority. To read and re-read my needs list and keep it on the top of her mind. To own her errors and to reduce her defensiveness.

At the end of the day, I do still love her (I know that's not enough), and think that she can become a safe partner. Maybe that's a horrible error in judgment.

Things seem to be improving because she is making a more concerted effort to care about me and make me a priority.

And this right here sums up what many of us can see. She is your wife. It should not be, in any way, an effort for her to care about you,and make you a priority.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:54 PM, January 14th (Thursday)]

And this right here sums up what many of us can see. She is your wife. It should not be, in any way, an effort for her to care about you,and make you a priority.

I think there is a conundrum here. Everyone says reconciliation is hard work, but then it shouldn't take effort?

I don't know if I'm quite following.

We did make a resolution to have our interactions and her reassurances to not be an effort. To be easy and automatic if there is nothing new. I don't really know if this is along the same lines. Anyway, for me, it's good to see her trying because before it was not apparent to me that she was.

Everyone says reconciliation is hard work, but then it shouldn't take effort?

Of course. It takes effort for the BS to accept and deal with the betrayal,and lies. It takes effort for the WS to be honest, transparent,and rid themselves of their deeply ingrained waywardness..low self esteem,being honest, stop being selfish,stupid using bad coping mechanisms, etc, etc.

But what should not take effort is the WS caring about their spouse.

In many situations here, if the WS doesn't love their BS, if they aren't deeply remorseful, and if working on themselves so they are safe partners for their BS isn't something they truly want to do..it won't work.

You shouldn't have to push and pull your WS through an attempted reconciliation.

Read what you wrote. She has to make an effort to care about you. Meaning, she doesn't. It doesn't come naturally. She cares about how a divorce will affect her life..not you. She has to work at caring about you.

It's heartbreaking that you see this as progress.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:09 PM, January 14th (Thursday)]

It does seem quite bizarre to me that your WW didn't get you a Christmas gift though. After not getting you a birthday gift. I wonder what her thought process could possibly have been, and I don't buy that it was because you are so hard to shop for. Please.

Certain things you do have to "try" but certain things should infact be coming naturally. Yes your WW may have to put in effort towards to not get defensive when you express anger/disappointment with her. But getting you something that will brighten your holiday? Putting in some thought towards you for Christmas? How could she have gone through the month of December without even considering you that way.

You don't owe anyone an explanation here of course. But it sounds to me and I think a bunch of other people that you are rationalizing inadequate effort. Your wife is only finally doing **some** of the things that a good spouse does for her partner ANYWAY. She isn't yet doing enough of them though, nevermind enough to rebuild trust after her affair.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:03 PM, January 14th (Thursday)]

Just as it relates to the Christmas gift, she was basically behind on it completely for everyone except our sons. She ended up getting her close friends belated Christmas gifts as well. She didn't "single me out" in this failure. This is part of her explanation.

I mean, we talked about it for a while, not during the first confrontation but when we were borderline ready to divorce on her asking after I had roasted her about how she and her sister were both cheaters that her father didn't raise properly... I can relay many of the various things she said here:

-Everything is stacked on top of each other and we did a big thing for our anniversary

-She's been very busy and was behind on everyone's gifts

-We were going on a trip for Christmas as well

-She thought about it, but never decided on what to give me and was afraid would ream her out for a low effort gift

-I've given her shitty gifts before that we had to return and she didn't want to get me a chore

-Gifts have never really been that important in our relationship before, and she has not gotten me things before and it didn't matter then

-She actually DID get me something last minute for my birthday so it's not fair to say she didn't get me anything twice in a row

-She got me a classic car for father's day (my dad's old car from his estate which does net turn into taking cash out of our bank accounts for the car and I wasn't expecting to get it).

All of that isn't really important compared to what she said during the main confrontation specifically about the gift, "I'm sorry I didn't get you anything. I understand that things are different now and will make sure not to neglect you on special days. I'll get you something off your amazon wish list. I'm sorry."

As it relates to justifying "insufficient effort". Considering I have relayed to her on multiple occasions that her effort level has been disappointing and not enough, I can tell you that she gets my honest opinion on whether or not she is trying hard enough, which she hasn't been. During our near divorce talk she said, "I can't just keep on disappointing you. It kills me that I'm disappointing you." I say, "Well just think about your actions more and stop hurting me then".

I mean, we are a couple weeks away from that confrontation initiated by her. I can't speak with confidence that things are going to continue to get better or spiral again. As before, I'm genuinely conflicted. I don't want to divorce, and it seemed like the R path my WW laid out wasn't going to materialize at all. I now believe that it could materialize, and so will not divorce.

I guess I'll be damned if I don't try everything as long as I see a positive outcome as possible with M and R. Which, as it turns out, I can't always see, but I do right now. I have not changed anything from what I need from her. I haven't "caved" in that sense. I don't tell her things are ok when they aren't and she is learning to be ok not being either perfect or damned (how she felt before) but improving.

Yeah it sucks that it has taken over a year to get here. I don't recommend it.

Based on our previous cycles give me another two months and we'll see if we are back on the brink of divorce. Because that's been the ebb and flow. If not, hurray! If yes, maybe I just keep coming back for 2x4s in an endless cycle of beatings. Surely it will sink in at some point.

Then, at the very least, I can be an example of the worst possible way to cope with infidelity. Hopefully someone can learn from my errors. :)

You both sound like you are handling things better , so well done there

I think your biggest problem is that she has untreated anxiety and depression and she is in denial ? Sorry if i missed this but how is she planning to manage these very serious issues ?

Till she gets some help for herself she cant possibly be a safe partner