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Ok, as it relates to orgasming. But, is complex really the right word. Maybe it is just that the anatomy is different requiring different stimulus.

It was an Artic hellscape of "frozen fear" for her, you see. And she just REGRETS it soooo much. It was almost against her will, you see. She was terrified and just had to let him finish. And that's why she had to go to dinner with him afterward, because she was so deeply terrified and frozen with fear.

And she's conflict-avoidant, poor girl. She couldn't bear to tell the AP that his penis was instead like a uranium rod to her and so she simply had to enjoy a lovely dinner with him afterward.

It just doesn't wash with me.

So what? Who cares if you believe it?

You have basically taken what I said in my post,and mocked me.

But you aren't calling me a liar?

JFC.

I'm out. I admit, I'm triggering. I made myself more vulnerable on this thread, than on any other Ive ever posted on. Only to have my words twisted, and mocked. I'm sure I will be told it was unintentional. Was it? Maybe. But probably not. Doesn't matter. I won't bother to return to see the arrogant response you will, no doubt,have.

OP, I suggest you listen to the women who have actually answered your questions, rather than some of the men who are assuming.

Booyah, thank you for once again showing an open mind. You are appreciated, my friend.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:30 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

I'm out. I admit, I'm triggering. I made myself more vulnerable on this thread, than on any other Ive ever posted on. Only to have my words twisted, and mocked. I'm sure I will be told it was unintentional. Was it? Maybe. But probably not.

I am sorry Hellfire. I completely understand. This thread is very triggery. But, I think a lot of people do take you very seriously and respect what you have to say. Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Yes, I agree it is very triggering to be told how we should be sympathetic to a woman who deliberately got on a plane for the purposes of sexually betraying her husband, probably excited and with little thought or regard for her loyal spouse. Very triggering indeed.

No, you are not missing anything, Leavingorbit! That's precisely true.

And, there was nothing that said she didn't admit to giving signals and having him follow them. There is nothing that says that she doesn't take full accountability regardless of her claim not to like the sex. There is nothing that says that he believes anything at all is untrue other than whether or not she enjoyed the sex or if she felt terrible immediately. He even adds that he also fears she had sex with a basketball team staying on the grounds, which if we are voting on that, it didn't happen either.

Thank you, hikingout, and slight t/j, it’s really good to see you posting.

I didn't say the OP himself was trying to posit a little lost girl in the woods narrative, I said others were. Not sure how this was confusing. Hard to miss.

I’m sorry, Thumos, I’ll clarify because I left out a question in my post. I meant to ask, would you please point out where other posters have posited justifications or excuses? I ask because yes, I do seem to have missed that.

Yeah, I hate that " more complex deal just like the propaganda that men are less evolve emotionally or not good at communicating feelings, blah, blah.

Guess the folks who subscribe to that forgot about all the male poets, authors, philosophers, orators, artists, etc.

My male friends are great communicators. We do not talk strictly boxscores, carburetors, etc.

One thousand percent right on.

The only way that we're more "complex" is that it's generally more complicated to have an orgasm with a clitoris than with a penis. Generally, not always.

Stinger

Well lets start from there - that a particular woman might know ahead of time that her chances of an orgasm are 10 percent at best ( changing the stimulus btw often takes a lot of technique on both sides and because of the time involved commitment too )

Dont you think the above womans behavior around sex will be more complex than a man ( or a woman) who climaxes easily

And thats not even taking into account how societal attitudes

can change both women and mens behavior around female sexuality .

In dont think its a compliment to say female sexuality is more complex , i think its just a pretty realistic appraisal.

Also Im with Dee - its ridiculous and false to diminish men and their emotional and intellectual worlds , i for one would never do that,.

[This message edited by siracha at 3:48 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

What I actually said was that "bad sex" is probably at least somewhat enjoyable for both parties if both people are coming to it from a good faith effort trying to please each other. What I meant was not exclusively related to orgasms but rather to intimacy and pleasure derived from the closeness. Think of two awkward teenagers who are deeply attracted to each other. Probably not the best sex they will ever have. Possibly mediocre and even bad. But likely both enjoyed it if they cared for one another. Again, not hard to miss my point unless one was being deliberately obtuse.

And what I am telling you is there are LOTS of men who could give a shit about good faith effort. Especially single ones who watch lots of porn. So, you are assuming that he cared for this woman? I would more assume he saw an easy piece set before him and he probably proceeded exactly how he pleased.

It's unlikely she exhibited any signs to her husband of this alleged trauma in the weeks afterward.

We do not know what she exhibited. We don't know how long it took for him to find out, if it ate her alive and she confessed.

Someone "frozen in fear" doesn't come out of a shower with a robe on and overtly display the wares, likely with a big shit-eating grin on her face.

We have no idea of this woman's facial expression, but I would definitely say she could have come out ready for what's next. DOESN'T mean she enjoyed what actually did come next.

I will share something at this juncture that I haven't in the past because I didn't want to be identifiable to AP or possibly his wife. When I arrived for my trip, I did expect to have sex with the AP. Stone cold had talked about it with him. It almost didn't happen. Why? Because the minute it got real and he made a move I physically ducked like a little kid. What we fantasize is going to happen and how we react, are two different things. I wish I had stayed with the cold feet for sure, this doesn't make me less culpable in my story. It just goes to show that what we think things are going to be like in our head is not always what happens.

So, what she did prior to the sex? That doesn't mean there was a good faith effort on his part. It doesn't mean she didn't feel afraid. As I have already described men who do not care about you do all sorts of shit that is dehumanizing. How you can not accept that as truth is beyond me. You are filling in the blanks of the narrative.

It COULD be the way you are saying. It also MIGHT NOT BE!!!

We do not know what she exhibited. We don't know how long it took for him to find out, if it ate her alive and she confessed.

you're right. I hope OP will come along and enlighten a bit more, bc this part of whether she confessed or was discovered is murky.

You are filling in the blanks of the narrative.

I am. I also don't know if they actually had a charcuterie and cheese tray. Pure speculation. Or if they shared a nice Toscana red together.

As I have already described men who do not care about you do all sorts of shit that is dehumanizing. How you can not accept that as truth is beyond me.

Of course I grok this in the sense that I know it happens, but no I don't relate. As you know, my WW is my one and only. My WW's affair disabused me of my formerly traditionalist notions of one and only, lifelong marriage, a "one in the flesh" intimacy etc. And severely challenged my faith. But I'm just not built to use women, any woman, as a masturbation device. So I can't relate to it. TMI, but I have trouble enjoying it if I don't think my WW is enjoying it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:58 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

I thought we couldnt have been clearer about how this is a mechanical and indisputable fact ie the clitoris is much harder to correctly stimulate than the penis ; how you made a woodland faun out of that I am not quite sure ...

Thats a separate point and now another

When it comes to post rape behavior i think its very clear that people - men women children all have a strong desire to pretend it didnt happen

And now a third

None of this - again - none of this can excuse all her pre sex decisions .

Heres the thing...

Is it possible? Sure

If a guy comes here and says when he confronted his suspicious wife of having semen stained panties in the wash that he did and they haven't had sex in weeks, and her response is, "it's corn syrup. I put it in there bc I like how it feels". He then asks if that's possible she's telling the truth.

Sure it's possible. But very freaking highly unlikely. Just like OP's story. And telling OP that yes it's possible and leaving it at that is doing him zero good. He's already bern getting minimalization, gaslighting and TT from his wife over the years. He doesn't need ppl here backing his wife's nonsense up.

And now he's being told that she got raped.

Smmfh...

Of course I grok this in the sense that I know it happens, but no I don't relate. As you know, my WW is my one and only. My WW's affair disabused me of my formerly traditionalist notions of one and only, lifelong marriage, a "one in the flesh" intimacy etc. And severely challenged my faith. But I'm just not built to use women, any woman, as a masturbation device. So I can't relate to it.

Good. I expect you will never be able to relate to it. You aren't wired like that.

She's right, though. There are a lot of men who absolutely use a woman like a masturbatory device with no concern for what she's thinking or feeling. I don't understand doing that either because so much of what's great about sex is about the pleasure of the other person.

But quite frankly, if you're cheating on your husband and you got used as a masturbatory device and the guy didn't even try to make it great for you, you don't have my sympathy.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:01 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

I thought we couldnt have been clearer about how this is a mechanical and indisputable fact ie the clitoris is much harder to correctly stimulate than the penis ; how you made a woodland faun out of that I am not quite sure ...

Yep, that's a headscratcher. I have been with women, and I have talked to a lot of women about sex. We are all very, very different in the combo that works for us. I think men have different preferences, but generally speaking, you can have sex with one you don't know well, and without any explanation of what they want you can likely make them have an O. It might not be an earth shattering or ideal experience for them, but it will likely happen.

With women, it doesn't even always happen with all the work your poor husband put in to make it happen. We are not just complex in the combonations we need (and jeesh, you have a lot of choices here - some like gspot stuff, some like clitoral stimulation, really fast or really hard, some need very little pressure or you will hurt them. But, we are also complex in hormonal fluxuations, and in the conditioning we receive on sex from an early age. There are far more of us that have been sexually violated at some point or another (again not that men can't be or that doesn't effect them, but just in sheer volume)

It's a lot more than whether you get off from the clit or the vagina. And, there are some men who are freaking clueless out there, clueless. They are using porn as an instructional tape and just ask any woman how much of that stuff looks like it's going well for the woman. In some cases it doesn't even seem like it should be working well for the man.

If a guy comes here and says when he confronted his suspicious wife of having semen stained panties in the wash that he did and they haven't had sex in weeks, and her response is, "it's corn syrup. I put it in there bc I like how it feels". He then asks if that's possible she's telling the truth.

True story, this is actually not far off from part of my confrontation with my WW after DDAY (DDAY she tried to tell me it was an emotional affair and only admitted to the physical "one time" about a week later).

She didn't claim corn syrup, but the lying about it was epic. She also found where I'd hid the panties, took them back and washed them.

And you've hit on precisely another reason why I always bring up possibility vs. probability. Because it was a mental model that kept me sane during her affair and helped me put pressure on her to tell the truth. I never got the full truth, and that's part of why we're headed for divorce but I got enough of the truth. So when I see other BH's twisting in the wind and reading them relate yet another WW gaslighting them with classic cheaters' script lines, I call bullshit on it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:08 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

But quite frankly, if you're cheating on your husband and you got used as a masturbatory device and the guy didn't even try to make it great for you, you don't have my sympathy.

Who said anything about sympathy?

Of course I grok this in the sense that I know it happens, but no I don't relate. As you know, my WW is my one and only. My WW's affair disabused me of my formerly traditionalist notions of one and only, lifelong marriage, a "one in the flesh" intimacy etc. And severely challenged my faith. But I'm just not built to use women, any woman, as a masturbation device. So I can't relate to it. TMI, but I have trouble enjoying it if I don't think my WW is enjoying it.

And that's what I said earlier. I think we have a lot of married men here that feel the same way you do. My h is also in that category. That's how it should be.

It's just not that prevalent. I have a lot of single girlfriends, and they report that it hasn't gotten any better out there since we have aged. It's definitely a con for me in the divorce column.

It's just not that prevalent. I have a lot of single girlfriends, and they report that it hasn't gotten any better out there since we have aged. It's definitely a con for me in the divorce column.

Well, I'm feeling increasingly great about my prospects after divorce then!

If a guy comes here and says when he confronted his suspicious wife of having semen stained panties in the wash that he did and they haven't had sex in weeks, and her response is, "it's corn syrup. I put it in there bc I like how it feels". He then asks if that's possible she's telling the truth.

This story is nothing like the one in this thread. In this thread, we have a woman who had an affair who admits all the things that she did. The point of contention really just boils down to could she have not liked the sex.

Sure it's possible. But very freaking highly unlikely. Just like OP's story. And telling OP that yes it's possible and leaving it at that is doing him zero good. He's already bern getting minimalization, gaslighting and TT from his wife over the years. He doesn't need ppl here backing his wife's nonsense up.

How do you know that he's been gaslighted, TT, etc. What if what she is saying is true? How does saying she is definitely lying help him?

The fact is he can divorce her regardless of the way the question is answered. Instead, he asked a community of people could what she is saying be true? And, he goes on to say she did a tremendous amount of work on herself and has been the picture of remorseful. If whether she enjoyed the sex or not is the death nail on his marriage, and noone knows the truth either way, how are we not helping him giving different perspectives than yours Golden R?

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:20 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

Who said anything about sympathy?

I figured odds were decent someone out there would think I was being sympathetic by saying it was possible.

Hiking

My thoughts exactly ! Specially on the porn and dehumanization aspect .

I have never once met a woman proud of how complex her sexual biology is , i was a little taken aback that my words were taken as a diss to men or female self congratulation.

We all tend to speak in shorthand and make assumptions i guess .

I figured odds were decent someone out there would think I was being sympathetic by saying it was possible.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.