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So, we are going to start Marriage counseling once we can find on that's working my plan is to pursue this line of thought in a more sterile setting to find out exactly at what milli-second during the event that it became traumatic and horrible. I don't think I've ever asked it that way so thanks to whoever brought that question up.

I think the quitting drinking is good because people tend to ruminate. And, marriage counseling is also probably going to be a great step no matter what you decide at the other end of it. A long term relationship is always hard to unwind and I think it unwinds best if you can get on the same page as to why and whether or not you each gave it a good shot or not.

As for the other stuff, I can understand how tremendously painful it is to be told this while your wife was suicidal. I was also having mental health issues, and it made my husband feel like he had to sequester some of his pain so I could get better.

On the other hand, on a logical plane (which is difficult to get your emotions to line up with), you might understand someone who came to the point they had to be hospitalized because they wanted to kill themselves could very well align well with her story about how traumatizing it was for her. I personally feel that I did create some trauma for myself in doing what I did. That isn't comparable to what I did to my H, but it was still something that was a big wake up call to a lot of past trauma I had not ever dealt with, and the ways I manage my life poorly.

I know that's of little consolation, I am not trying to minimize your pain. However, you have stated many, many times in your time here she felt so terrible about what she did. She confessed, and had sunk so low she wanted to kill herself. This just does not ring to me as a woman who is trying to get one over on you. I don't even think it sounds like a woman who could live with harboring a secret.

So in all that, I think it's great that you are looking at healthy ways of trying to come to terms with this by working on being sober and getting some professional help. You deserve to heal, it's been 8 long years that you have been in this pain. I am hopeful for you in taking new steps that you will have peace regardless of what you choose to do about your marriage.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:47 AM, November 13th (Friday)]

On the other hand, on a logical plane (which is difficult to get your emotions to line up with), you might understand someone who came to the point they had to be hospitalized because they wanted to kill themselves could very well align well with her story about how traumatizing it was for her.

True. An important piece of context we did not have before.

GP, another thing for you to think about that might be helpful: have you read the book "Cheating in a Nutshell?" I found it well-researched a quick read and it gave me tremendous insight into what I've been feeling.

The book highlights and touches on briefly Jonathan Haidt's well-documented research around moral emotions that provide the basis for what he and his team call Moral Foundations.

The more I have read of Haidt's work, the more I have found it very compelling stuff related to our shared experience of adulterous betrayal.

The emotions you have after being betrayed -- anger, sadness, revulsion and so on -- aren't unhealthy and they aren't a cover for something else.

They are primary emotions and your brain and body simply won't let you rest until you resolve them. The cognitive dissonance will not let you rest. These emotions will keep resurfacing over and over -- which is one reason I believe we keep seeing BS's show up here like you years later, or even decades later, still struggling.

Among the Moral Foundations are several continuums that relate specifically to adultery:

1. Fairness/cheating

2. Loyalty/betrayal

3. Sanctity/degradation

4. Care/harm

These "modules" are like the receptors on the tongue that tell you if something is bitter, sour, sweet, etc.

When something happens that essentially triggers one of these modules, you react very strongly. Some people react more strongly than others. For example, Haidt has documented that many people who lean conservative (even if they don't think of themselves this way) have a stronger sense of sanctity/degradation. This might in fact be genetic.

The moral emotion associated with this module -- revulsion -- will burn very strong in certain people compared to others. The moral emotion of revulsion (disgust) has been well-documented here on SI. People talk about it all the time. They are revolted by what their partner did to the point of feeling physically ill, and often revolted by their partner's presence even as they long for their presence.

Indeed, this may account for what I have described here on SI in my own experience -- that for a time, even a hug from my WW triggered a feeling of neuralgic discomfort in me (the phantom "burning sensation" in one's nerves that flares up after having something like shingles, which I've had).

Revulsion may have begun as a fight/flight response to poisonous plants, or things like snakes. But Haidt and others believe it ramified outwards to increasingly include mental models to protect against bad people and harmful situations.

Thus, the revulsion many here on SI express all the time may in fact be the body warning them repeatedly that they are in a harmful (aka "poisonous") situation.

If you think about it, adultery triggers almost all of the moral emotions and modules.

I believe this is also why crowdsourced wisdom on SI intuitively came up with the saying "it just may be a dealbreaker for you" because if you betray the right person (or the wrong person) and their sense of moral foundations is particularly acute, then the moral emotions associated with each module will fire up strongly -- and attempts to suppress these fires will fail.

Something to think about.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:08 AM, November 13th (Friday)]

I think "are you telling me that you made the contact, invited him up, showered, sat next to him only in a robe and THEN you were surprised that you ended up having SEX!?" Are you fucking stupid? Anyone that gets those signals and that is giving those signals KNOWS that sex is on the table.

I could accept that once it started she regretted it and starfished it to just get it over with. I could accept that the sex was disappointing and just so/so. I also could accept that at some point between the event in March and telling me in August that you became horrified by what you had done and were traumatized by your behavior. I would really even understand more if you were stoned or hammer drunk and didn't have all of your mental faculties. All of those answers make much more sense.

It seems to me that the above needs to be resolved to help your healing.

Why don’t you sit her down and tell her the above? That you need the truth to help you in your journey of recovery?

ETA: as a man, I sometimes feel it’s difficult to talk about what’s bothering me, and I simmer. When I eventually spill my beans, I wonder why I didn’t have the talk earlier

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 11:03 AM, November 13th (Friday)]

I believe this is also why crowdsourced wisdom on SI intuitively came up with the saying "it just may be a dealbreaker for you" because if you betray the right person (or the wrong person) and their sense of moral foundations is particularly acute, then the moral emotions associated with each module will fire up strongly -- and attempts to suppress these fires will fail.

I second reading that book. It helped explain why I felt like I almost had a full body itch that I couldn't relieve until I left, even during the times when I had a WH who was acting like R material. That isn't me saying that you should leave. It does help put the emotional and nearly physical reactions in perspective.

Slap, we are still married. I just used the xWW to indicate that she's no longer an active WW and she's done a fairly large amount of work to make herself a safe partner

She may have done a lot of work and come a long way, but she has a long long way to go.

You are in the pit you are in because you know she's not being honest. Traumatized? Please. She planned for the hookup, got him up to the hotel room on the pretense of changing for dinner and seduced him. She enjoyed the buildup and enjoyed the sex... a lot. Shame and the fear that you will leave her if she tells you the truth is what is keeping her from being honest and transparent. You know this in your gut, and that is what is tearing you apart.

Until she owns what she did, starts being honest with you and with herself, there will be no healing... just an open festering boil that will never close up.

For example, I never said to my husband "I know it's horrible, but I never had an orgasm". That would have been a really big load of crap to lay on him. Right? Like that's supposed to make him feel better.

Wow, HikingOut, I just caught this comment and this is spot on. It hit me like a ton of bricks.

GP, this may give you some better insight into why you are struggling so much with your WW’s lack of authenticity and intellectual honesty.

I didn’t realize until I read this observation by HikingOut just how damaging the things my WW said were and how she just didn’t get it. She really didn’t understand why it was such a big deal. She kept saying how how minor her affair was compared to others.

I think she sort of gets it now that I want a divorce, but that was a long time coming and too late.

Until reading this from you I never realized just how awful this statement was from my wife. She said exactly this ( in contrast to you ) — or she said something like this that was so close it’s close enough — and it’s yet another nail in the coffin. It reflects such a deep wayward mindset.

When I combine this with her other observations about me being sexually immature because I couldn’t accept it was “meaningless sex,” how she yelled “that’s your problem!” when I told her I was struggling with her being my one and only and her decision to disdain amd dishonor that, how screwing other people’s homes is “what adults do!”, how she sized up AP for STD risk, how she denies planning it, how she denies any other sexual activity of any kind ... I’m just not left with much.

Really hitting me on this Friday. It also just reflects the extent to which BS’s are really paying attention and really listening. We are paying attention to everything and we remember it. If any WS’s are reading this who are still bullshitting themselves and others, I plead with you stop doing that right now. Today.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:01 PM, November 13th (Friday)]

But to be be the one that initiated it ALL, then go to dinner after and THEN tell me it was traumatic and horrible from start to finish makes no sense and makes me realize I'm married to an fucking MORON...

Just to further clarify: when you say “from start to finish”, do you mean from the point of having sex through dinner or the entire day with the AP?

Well, from an outsider's perspective, Thumos, I was always aghast at your wife's comments. They were among some of the cruelest and belittling I have read. Is she half bright? If so, then she must be incredibly stunted emotionally.

She kept saying how how minor her affair was compared to others.

Oh yeah, that is super unhelpful.

I actually had other BS on this site tell me they were JEALOUS of me and that I was LUCKY that my H "only" had a ONS . . . because your drunk husband cheating on you with a prostitute while you're home with the baby is NBD, right??

That stopped as subsequent D-Days piled up - seems like that first one flipped a switch. He went from sobbing in shame after the first one to coldly telling me that it was my fault he cheated on me with a girl in a bar, because my stetch marks were not sexy. I was still on maternity leave with my son (different baby than the first time).

Thumos, the more I read of your story, the more I am heckin' glad you are getting divorced. It doesn't matter than the bare facts of her infidelity may be less atrocious than other stories, it's her unremorseful, uncaring and minimizing attitude that is shocking.

But, Thumos,

You took what I was saying out of context.

My point is sometimes it's relevant on how people receive the information. I mean, I am happy you had an epiphany but now I feel like I should clarify.

Having a conversation in which I am being asked if I had an orgasm (which was a direct question my husband asked to get this information) I said no.

That's different than saying "But I never had an orgasm" as a minimization.

So, this was in context to gut punch's wife, we don't know if all that she has said is in a minimizing way, or it's his summary of what he knows based on their conversations.

Too often we color that information (because it's triggery to many of us in the forum) as being received one way, when in fact, it wasn't.

If my husband had been a poster that sought support, he might have said "she said she didn't have an orgasm but it's hard to believe she didn't enjoy the sex". The posters responses would have been "oh like that makes it better", when in fact, I have never said it made it better, not here and not to him.

At the same time, I can see how you are drawing that the stupid shit WS say (from another conversation you and I briefly had on crazy makers) is not all created equal. There is one thing if the WS is relaying their truth but haven't really gotten to how reality is different than their perception, and in essence just gaslighting, or trying to downplay things.

But, in regards to this poster, some of you imagine her holding her hands up in front of her saying "oh but I didn't enjoy it, so it's not so bad" and that's not the only scenario. It could be answering a question or filling in a timeline of factual information.

Buck mentioned yesterday that his wife had sex 10 times in her affair and said she didn't. He had her polygraphed on that, and she didn't. I don't know if she was using it as a defense in her case, but it's not always used as a defense but just presented factually through disclosure.

Anyway, it's a pet peeve when those conclusions are always drawn but I get that it happens probably way more the other way, that someone is saying it to make it seem better.

Having a conversation in which I am being asked if I had an orgasm (which was a direct question my husband asked to get this information) I said no.

That's different than saying "But I never had an orgasm" as a minimization.

No I got it. I understood the context. My WW offered it up as minimization before I asked it. That was my point.

OP,

The reason I ask for clarification is everyone's rationale in the camp of it is plausible, myself included, seems predicated upon the trauma coming at or after the point of physical intimacy. Which for reasons that others have described, it is understandable when you think in terms of compartmentalization and willful denial of an emotional affair. Shirley Glass wrote an entire book called "Not ‘Just Friends’" that highlights the psychological process of intentionally downplaying or minimizing actions and knowingly ignoring the likely outcomes.

However, the physical act of sex is the cogito, ergo sum of infidelity. This doubtless realization is what can cause the levee to break and the deluge of her own bullshit can inudate, hence the self-inflicted trauma described.

Why did she continue with dinner? Just to get it over with. It was less awkward, and the easiest way out is through sometimes. She is in a strange city and the hotel room is the only "safe haven" she has and she invited the affair partner to occupy it. Her first thoughts could be, how do I get him out and minimize the psychological trauma? Do I A.) play along for another hour, go back to my safe space, and then get back to mental gymnastics in an attempt to bury it? Or do I B.) make a scene, have no idea how he is going to react, cause further self-inflicted trauma because I actually have to deal with the shit that my mental gymnastics were not equipped to handle, risk this blowing up even further, insert more uncertainty, giving up power over my own narrative, compound more bullshit, etc. If we are doing a risk analysis in real time, option A seems much more likely using that thought process. I think we can all relate to that sentiment to an extent. Burying bullshit is sometimes easier than opening up a potential can of worms.

For me, the plausibility quickly diminishes if she is saying that the entire day was traumatic. Simply, there are too many points in which she had the opportunity to deescalate or cut it short. For example, she could of ghosted him at the airport; she could have lied and made an excuse why she couldn't sightsee; if she did sightsee, she could have went to dinner immediately after, etc.. None of this would create a tsunami of awkwardness that was created by the physical intimacy. The "mission" was abortable, although the betrayal was not.

***I know I have to say this so it does not trigger people. Whether she had the time of her life or hated every second of that IT IS IMMATERIAL TO THE BETRAYAL AND THE PAIN IT CAUSED. Hating it or loving it does not matter one scintilla in the work she needs to do to restore her character whether or not the marriage survives. She is still guilty of murder of the marriage. The scope of this post is limited to whether or not the narrative, that every BS needs in order to process the mess, is plausible and does not reflect or imply her culpability, responsibility, or redeemability is either limited or enhanced.

[This message edited by KingRat at 5:41 PM, November 13th (Friday)]

Gutpunch

I heard this said and have read about people that attempted suicided but lived.

They made plans the day before, walked to the bridge, took the final step off and then thought/screamed/realized what they had done but it was too late. (obviously some lived, as you and your wife are alive now!)

Does the above fit what you WW did, think about her trip, plan her trip, enjoy her trip, then realize 'what the hell have I done?'

You and your wife know what she is capable of. You get that, it sucks man I am there, maybe a little farther along but it sucks. It will always suck.

You what is worst?, and I would venture you do, lying. WW not coming to terms with her actions and the damage those actions have caused.

The 'millisecond' may not be your issue. Your issue is the truth.

And if she is lying, the thing about that is it it will hurt both of you. Make a path for her to come clean. Don't enable, rugsweep, whatever. The truth, nothing but the truth. (Be careful of the level of detail as you know your limits.)

Gutpunch, I too drink to much over this very issue for too long. That is on you. Don't lose the joy of a cold beer because you become an addict.

Good help here, some more pointed than others, but almost everyone here is hurting and healing some how. I bet your thread has helped maybe hundreds.

Hiking and Thumos, great points. The discussions are really helpful for me. Even the t/j's are enlightening.

I've had that book in my Kindle cart several times and I've never pulled the trigger on buying it. I will now.

I've always enjoyed drinking and have been known to howl at the moon on more than one occasion. The difference in the last 8 years is that I'm using it as an angry response. Either 1) something angers or triggers me and I consciously go "Fuck it, I'm going to drink" or 2) I drink and wait to see if she'll challenge me on it and in my mind think something like: "how dare you question me, you don't have the moral credits to say anything I'm doing is wrong". I've realized it for a while now, and now I'm ready to stop that childishness.

I'm also ready to meet the counseling head on and be honest with her and myself. I think for 8 years I've been worried that if I press too hard or dig at the truth too much a) I'll push her into a downward spiral (I know, blowing up every 6 months is SO much better) and cause her to end up back in the hospital or towards killing herself. b) if I make waves and push her too much she'll call it quits and then I'll end up as a part time father. My kids mean the world to me, I miss them terribly even now that 2 of them are grown and out of the house and c) I think I will look too closely at it and realize divorce is the answer and I really, really don't want that to be the answer.

Hiking, I agree. I don't think she's trying to get one over on me. I think she's been incredibly honest. That's why this answer is so difficult to comprehend. I've not been raised by a horrible mother that was abusive and cruel so maybe all of this makes perfect sense to someone that's been warped by their childhood FOOs. I'm honestly trying really hard to wrap my head around it. I think that's why I keep coming back around to it, to try to understand and finally be able to put it to bed.

I've put together some clarifying questions for her to answer. I may wait until we see the counselor before I ask them. Mostly because want to have a professional help me to understand the illogic of my fWW's actions that night. Also, it will help me to stay calm. I flood terribly and I can't remember details and I just blow up. And then after, I'm so emotionally wiped out that I'm too far in a hole to ask again so that I might understand. So then those unanswered questions keep getting hashed over and over again.

I think for 8 years I've been worried that if I press too hard or dig at the truth too much a) I'll push her into a downward spiral (I know, blowing up every 6 months is SO much better) and cause her to end up back in the hospital or towards killing herself. b) if I make waves and push her too much she'll call it quits and then I'll end up as a part time father. My kids mean the world to me, I miss them terribly even now that 2 of them are grown and out of the house and c) I think I will look too closely at it and realize divorce is the answer and I really, really don't want that to be the answer.

I get this - I don't think most BS's want divorce to be the answer. But sometimes it just is. I know I kinda shied away from that thought in earlier days, but it isn't the worst thing. IMHO the worst thing is living a lie or being stuck in limbo.

As to the rest of this thought... Hard as I know it is - you can't control her actions. She needs to steer her own mental health and manage that because that's not your job. Now obvs if she is in an acute crisis, then asking for truth may need to be put on the back burner for a minute, but from what you've said that isn't the case. If you need to rehash it, then do so. You have a right to get answers to your questions. And if you asking for that makes her file? Welllll, then that was probably gonna happen anyways.

She broke this. There is an onus of responsibility for supporting you and your healing that she has to be willing to meet and the bare minimum of that is giving you the truth. Just my 0.02.

I don't think she's trying to get one over on me. I think she's been incredibly honest. That's why this answer is so difficult to comprehend.

It’s also possible that she is being honest as she understands it.. Sometimes people’s thought processes are so fucked up that they literally believe the pretzel logic that they tell themselves to justify their own behavior.

Believe me, as a recovering alcoholic I understand just how easy it can be to get caught in a mental trap like that. But unraveling that pretzel logic, learning to see the truth and understand the depths to which one has fooled oneself is a big part of the work involved in getting healthy.

But that work is difficult and she isn’t likely to do it unless she has to. That means that you simply cannot continue on this course:

I think for 8 years I've been worried that if I press too hard or dig at the truth too much a) I'll push her into a downward spiral (I know, blowing up every 6 months is SO much better) and cause her to end up back in the hospital or towards killing herself. b) if I make waves and push her too much she'll call it quits and then I'll end up as a part time father. My kids mean the world to me, I miss them terribly even now that 2 of them are grown and out of the house and c) I think I will look too closely at it and realize divorce is the answer and I really, really don't want that to be the answer.

It is so often said here: In order to save the marriage, you have to be willing to lose it.

That shit is the gospel truth. And don’t misunderstand, that doesn’t mean you that don’t get to hope that you can save it. Doesn’t mean you don’t get to work toward saving it. It doesn’t mean you have to stop caring about the outcome.

It just mean that you need to let go of the idea that you can control the outcome.

What you have right now doesn’t seem to be working for you and you fear that pushing might lead to divorce. But you also fear that continuing on your present course might lead to divorce.....

Try accepting that divorce is a possible outcome of any course of action. And then, when you are able to accept that and let go of the outcome ,you will find yourself better able to identify the course that leads to the maximum available peace of mind for you. And then chose that one.

I’m guessing that course is going to involve you pushing for a lot more introspection on the part of your wife. I, for one, think that MC might be a good venue for that, but not the only one. Reconciliation and true healing require a fuck ton of hard, honest real conversations. It involves both of you getting real and accepting that the chips will fall where they may.

Best of luck to you both.

HT

[This message edited by HoldingTogether at 3:07 PM, November 13th (Friday)]

I completely understand.

a) I'll push her into a downward spiral (I know, blowing up every 6 months is SO much better) and cause her to end up back in the hospital or towards killing herself.

I get that. I didn't try to kill myself, but my husband tip toed around me because of my breakdown when I needed to be there fully for him. But, 8 years later - I would hope she has this more under control. If she does not, then she needs to deal with that. It's not your responsibility to sacrifice your mental health for hers. Does she still have depressive episodes?

b) if I make waves and push her too much she'll call it quits and then I'll end up as a part time father. My kids mean the world to me, I miss them terribly even now that 2 of them are grown and out of the house

Yep, grown kids do get consideration, all of ours are gone but I weigh them when I think about how I want to proceed. However, I am going to say that if you push her on this and that is the tipping point then you never had the remorseful wife that you thought you had. Seems like she has handled the blow ups, and she deals with the drinking even if it's not ideal. Cheating makes us feel like the person could not ever have loved us fully, or can't fully love us again. I have been on the WS side and I can tell you that I loved my husband more than I had at any point of our marriage after I thought we had come through everything. Then crash! Found out he cheated too. But, like you he pushed himself down in order for me to get well. While I love him in many ways even for that, the sacrifice he was making, I wish instead he would have chosen to lean on me. Let me be his rock too. I did everything I could to do that, but the damage was done.

and c) I think I will look too closely at it and realize divorce is the answer and I really, really don't want that to be the answer.

Oh, boy. I know. But, I do believe we can heal despite whatever outcome we choose and despite anything our spouse does. You can't heal if stay in a marriage where you don't feel you have the truth. But, you could also be blocking yourself from accepting you have the truth as a way of protecting yourself from tremendous pain again in the future. You need to know fully that you can have a happy life with her or without her. There is a lot of power in knowing you can do it without her. It means that you then can have confidence to try it with her knowing she probably could never hurt you again the same way as last time, and you will without any further hesitation leave if she tries.

It sounds to me that you may have the truth as she sees it, because affairs are not logical. There is nothing about mine that I can point out and say made a lot of sense in hindsight. I wouldn't buy some of it either if it hadn't happened to me.

I think you will find your answer - I am glad you are taking the right steps to do so. You need to do what you need to do to feel happy with your life moving forward. These are great first steps. Seeing that some of your behavior is still "childish" as you said, might be a good start. And, have some confidence that if she has put up with some "childish behavior" (Your words) then I think she can try and help you to get at what you need to get at. And if she can't, there is your answer clear as day. Not knowing that answer is making it worse for you.

Sounds like you're in this half empty nest stage I'm in. That's the only thing that has been keeping me around. I can't imagine staying with my WW in an empty nest situation at this point. I mean, my God, what would we talk about? All of the issues that I'm able to keep suppressed for the sake of just getting through another week would be staring us in the face. The distractions of kids and schedules would be completely gone. I'd be looking at her and only her across the kitchen table at breakfast and thinking about all the horror of the past few years. Just sitting there looking at her knowing she willfully executed on a plan to betray me, have a boyfriend and arrange to be penetrated by him. I think I would lose my mind. The thought terrifies me actually. I can't do it. The better option is to not put myself through that and find another life instead.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:55 PM, November 13th (Friday)]

gut

Mostly because want to have a professional help me to understand the illogic of my fWW's actions that night

What are you prepared to do when the MC hands you the line "that you had a part to play in the infidelity"?

[This message edited by SlapNutsABingo at 2:49 PM, November 16th (Monday)]

Yeah Slap, zero worries about that! I'll hand him the smack down of all smack downs. Pretty sure my fWW will too. The first MC we tried 8 years ago right after DDay started down that path and she shut it down right then and there. It was the beginning of the end for seeing that MC.

I'm doing a lot better. Had a few drinks over the weekend, but socially a few and no excessive drinking like I would have usually done. The plan is to be dry all week, then have a few on the weekend and only when in social settings, never start when I'm alone or angry.

Read Cheating in a Nutshell over the last 2 days. Highlighted tons of it. It's the first book on affairs that just comes right out and says you will NEVER forget it and the fastest way to healing is to divorce. Most books are more optimistic and lean pro-stay married.

I think I've been writhing around all these years trying find a solution that doesn't exist. I've delayed my healing (and probably it kept my fWW from healing more too) trying to work through it only to have me blow up regularly.

I've been putting together a list of questions for counseling that I want to get on paper. Clarifying questions about him, what he meant to her prior, what happened after, etc. We may have even gone over these before, but being on the receiving end of infidelity is kind of like being on the receiving end of a concussion. Your head is muddled and you experience a lot of memory loss.

I also have committed to being calm and collected this time around so that it may end up being productive. Whatever the end result may end up being. Making a plan for separation or working to heal while still married. Either way, I'm in a better position to handle the outcome.