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If she did enjoy it, does that really change the picture? I get that lying does, if she is in fact lying.

Minimizing in all its forms is LYING. Full stop. Lying is the opposite of reconciling.

Thumos,

I was mostly speaking of women being more physically complicated than men sexually.

Maybe you hit the lotto and you got a wife who climaxes easily and under most circumstances. I don't know. But, what I am saying is factually true, I have read it in about any book on sexuality that I have ever read.

I believe I am a woman who is actually quite a lot more sexual than many of my friends. But, if I am not there emotionally, if the man is not well versed at my buttons, if I am even in just an off time in my cycle, it's just not going to happen. Hormones are not a constant in women. Also, if there isn't enough foreplay, it isn't happening. I have witnessed none of that with a man.

My H, I am pretty sure, could climax in under a minute if he was trying for that result. That would never happen for me that way. Women are slow boiling more often than not. And, in PIV intercourse especially, the majority of women do not climax from that alone. The secret combination from woman to woman varies a good deal. While men also have sexual preferences, there probably aren't many that you could not get them to the finish line based on what you knew about any given man. Not all women are like that.

So, yes, we are a lot more complicated than men sexually. Factual.

What have you and your W done to heal?

I recommend getting some help from a good IC for processing your feelings - anger, grief, fear, shame - about your W's A. Until you stop letting yourself be governed by your feelings, I don't see how you can heal or come to a solution that feels right to you.

Can anyone give me some insight in to how her feeling traumatized and yet being the one that initiated the whole thing could possibly be accurate?

I do not understand why you're stuck on this. Have you never gotten into an activity and hated doing it, even though you expected to love doing it?

Don't get me wrong - I know how painful it is to be betrayed. I'm sorry you're in pain, and I'm sorry it has lasted so long.

IMO, the fact that you're stuck on this one question says to me you will need help to get out of your head and through your feelings, as awful as those feelings are.

IOW, deal with your feelings first. That will free you to decide what you want and what you'll do.

Remember: you have your feelings; they don't have you.

*****

Does it matter whether your W loved or hated the sex? Does that make her cheating better than if she loved it but preferred you? Would your feelings be that much different?

It certainly matters that she tells the truth, but suppose she is doing that?

Suppose she had said 'Stop!' And suppose he stopped before penetration or before orgasm.

IDK for certain, but if my W had started to seduce an old BF and called it off before completion, I think I'd still be betrayed. I'd still be inundated with grief, and, fear, and shame. I'd still have to process the feelings. I'd still have to decide what to do about our M.

IOW, for you to heal, I think you need to change your focus on your W needs into focus on yourself. You've been in pain for 8 years. Is it not time to get help?

Minimizing in all its forms is LYING. Full stop. Lying is the opposite of reconciling

IF she is lying or minimizing. But, it's possible what she is describing is honest. I have had one night stands, they never went well. Ever. I have no reason to lie about this.

But, I have definitely been an instigator, and have greatly anticipated, and the experience be a complete let down or cause me to have negative feelings I wasn't expecting. And, that has happened in most of my sexual relationships at some time or another. But, especially so with casual encounters or new partners

And? This doesn’t make women special. Men have the same experience. But back to OP’s original question - he’s being lied to, she’s minimizing, and he knows this. That’s the defining issue and it has left a gaping intimacy hole at the heart of their relationship she chooses to ignore. That’s a recipe for a failed reconciliation attempt.

I am not saying it makes women special, I am saying it's possible she is telling the truth.

Look, I do think I am a bit more qualified to speak on behalf of the female experience than you are. What she is describing is something I have experienced many times. With nothing on the line here to lie about.

Maybe you hit the lotto and you got a wife who climaxes easily and under most circumstances.

True dat. Although I just don’t see it as a winning lottery ticket. And not to get TMI but I’m pretty stubborn and will do whatever it takes to get there and I know no faked orgasms with me. as for other women, I’ve been faithful but get plenty of radar pings from other women and understand that women like sex every bit as much as men. That’s just my attitude, maybe I’ll be disabused of it after divorce.

Women are slow boiling more often than not. And, in PIV intercourse especially, the majority of women do not climax from that alone. The secret combination from woman to woman varies a good deal.

Also true but it doesn’t take a secret decoder ring, just some awareness.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:35 AM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Women aren’t any more complicated than men. This is an Age of Romanticism notion I simply don’t buy.

Have to agree. I can't deny any woman's experience or sense of complexity, but as a man, I can assure that there are many complexities to sex for men. Perhaps only different, but not less complex. I will agree that the stereotype of men is less complex. My fWW's A sex was the epitome of not complex. It was very, very not complex. Climax was not a requirement for my wife to experience uncomplicated satisfaction with the sex with her A partner.

Any suggestion that sex is more complex for women can only be true if tied to some very specific presumed unique to women element. But, overall, I think men have plenty to say about how complex sex can be.

To the OP, what does is matter to you whether or not it was ok or not ok sex. It is the sex or the perception that she is lying about it? If it is the lying, I would focus on that.

Have you never gotten into an activity and hated doing it, even though you expected to love doing it?

In any case who cares if OP’s WW hates it now? So very convenient. The real issue that is troubling OP is that how WW planned to be penetrated by another man and at least enjoyed the windup and saw no reason to rush away in shame afterward. She’s unable to be truthful about that. Which insults OP’s intelligence and makes him rightfully angry. By definition she’s still a wayward and not reconciling.

Suppose she had said 'Stop!' And suppose he stopped before penetration or before orgasm.

But she did nothing of the kind.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:43 AM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

True dat. Although I just don’t see it as a winning lottery ticket. And not to get TMI but I’m pretty stubborn and will do whatever it takes to get there and I know no faked orgasms with me. as for other women, I’ve been faithful but get plenty of radar pings from other women and understand that women like sex every bit as much as men. That’s just my attitude, maybe I’ll be disabused of it after divorce.

I agree, we do like sex as much as men. Physical affection is my top love language. I would have a hard time being happy in a sexless marriage. I am just saying that women in general are a little more complicated to get off, especially if you do not know them very well. AND - if you are the type to stay with it, and care about her pleasure then you may not ever encounter what I am talking about.

There are plenty of men who lay down with you, make it all about them, and could care less about how you would review it. If she was anticipating it to be this big wonderful thing, with her being a centerpiece, but he really just used her as a humping post, then she really could not love it. It can be insulting, demeaning, and downright disgusting feeling.

Its indisputable that she egged him on and wanted to have sex with him. But, whether or not she enjoyed it really is separate from whether or not she initiated. It's 100 percent possible she is being honest. But, I can't say whether or not she is or isn't being honest.

Also true but it doesn’t take a secret decoder ring, just some awareness.

And caring enough to have that awareness. I hate to tell you but there are many men who do not care.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:43 AM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

From my WW perspective - the sex I had with my AP was traumatizing and horrible. I was the instigator. I told myself I wanted to and it would be fine. I told myself it was “fun” and exciting. I told myself a lot of things. I felt sick the entire time. Like, almost vomited. We went out to breakfast and hung out the next day. We texted off and on for quite awhile after.

Yes, it can happen. I “wanted to” but I was wildly unhealthy. It’s a piece of my whys and your wife’s explanation sounds very plausible to me. Both aspects can be true, that she instigated and was hurting. I think it matters more for you to ask if it really makes a difference to you and if you can accept it, and also is she doing the work to address why she would make that choice. The why is for HER.

I’ve had a few instances where I thought I was going to have amazing sex and it was terrible. I’m sure the guy thought I had a great time because I faked it to get it over with and did anything I could to get the guy finished to end it.

That was obviously many years ago in my youth, but this experience doesn’t sound unbelievable to me at all.

I don't believe it at all either. I'm sorry.

I agree completely with what HikingOut is saying as far as women being sexually more complicated just in terms of getting THERE on a mechanical level (oh how jealous I am of men sometimes for this reason!), but I think in terms of her betrayal and her thought process beforehand it doesn't really matter.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 10:59 AM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Good grief, did you WW's read the fucking OP? This was her high school BF, a previous sex partner. In my experience, and the experience of virtually every male friend I have ever had, is that ex GFs will typically return for another fuck from time to time. Every GF I have ever had has done this.

You mention one of the reasons why Hiking, a previous lover is vetted. He knows what she likes, there's history\nostalgia, and she can show off new moves or show him what he's missing out on. Plus, there's the "what could have been" fantasy.

The other thing is most women are aware of their "number". Fucking an ex is not a +1 on the body count.

Also, what kind of woman invites a man that was a previous lover to a hotel room, gets naked and showers, comes out of the shower with nothing but a robe on, and sits next to him on a bed without intending to have sex with him? That hoe ain't playing with fire, she's building a fire. The bad sex line of bullshit is for the BH, she's trying to control the outcome and avoid a few consequences. She's probably also having a hard time facing her actions in the light of day. She has a shitload of reasons to lie.

Polygraph her.

“Frozen in fear” after she flew out to LA, arranged the circumstance, invited him to her room, showered and came out in a bathrobe, sat next to him and started groping and deep kissing, paused to let him go get a condom, “let him finish” and then went out to dinner afterwards.

Hmm, okay. Let’s say she was “frozen in fear” the entire time. This makes her even more duplicitous and weird than just an average wayward wife who wants get off.

It makes her sound positively psychotic.

I’m being sardonic on purpose, because we all know how stupid and silly this story sounds.

This is why he’s still puzzled and angry and drinking to numb himself out. Because he knows it is stupid and silly too.

By the way, you should feel totally fine with having what Jonathan Haidt has termed moral emotions in his research. These are normal and healthy emotions - like anger and disgust - that form the basis of objective human morality.

You know she’s selling you a story, it’s a version of “little lost girl in the woods” and it insults you. It’s gross actually and it repulses you, I’ll warrant.

it compounds her betrayal and your moral emotions are stirred and won’t give you peace until you deal with it.

That’s the bottom line here.

Gutpunch, I think the reason you are having a hard time healing is because you don't accept the story your FWW is telling you. This is my opinion only, so keep that in mind.

Your FWW is minimizing her actions, and has probably even now convinced HERSELF 8 years later, that what she believes is the truth.

She intended to have the A before she ever left on the trip. Let's look at the facts.

1. She lied to you by not telling you she was seeing XBF.

2. She invited him up to her room. He could have easily waited in the lobby. Any married person should NOT be inviting someone of the opposite sex to their hotel room, unless related. It's a bad idea.

3. She took a shower with him in the room, then came out to see him ON THE BED in a robe. She could have taken her clothes into the bathroom with her.

4. Per your description, your FWW stated that she was not opposed, OM reacted to her. She tells you she didn't react negatively by telling him no or stop, even when he moved away to get protection.

5. She went to dinner with him afterwards.

These actions are all evidence that she planned and executed the A. Did she have any contact with him after? An email or text saying thank you for the visit?

It probably wasn't all she thought it would be and she probably DID realize it was a terrible mistake. I'm not arguing any of the other facts that you've stated regarding her work and the state of your M. She probably really wants to R and make things better. Your stumbling block is that you need her to tell you the truth about the A and she hasn't yet.

I'm not a therapist, just making observations based on my experiences and what I've read from other people.

we all know how stupid and silly this story sounds.

We "all" do not.

Gutpunch Also think about the fact that she’s perfectly willing to watch you being tortured by this and physically deteriorating for the better part of a decade, just as long as it suits her personal agenda (whatever that is). That isn’t the behavior of someone who actually gives a shit about you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:15 AM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

We "all" do not.

*except for Brave Sir Robin

Is she claiming she did not orgasm from the sex with OM?

The whole thing makes no sense, have her write out a timeline. Have her include all communications and contact before the hotel incident as well. Also any other infidelities.

Have her include her emotional state did she love or want OM during your marriage and view you as her plan B.

Then take her for a polygraph. If she is being honest as she is insisting then she will go willingly.

Did you expose the affair to OMW or confront OM?