SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

After a rough couple weeks for me, tonight's deep/heated/difficult/helpful discussion included my FWH saying we could work through a book together. It could give some structure to our conversations, which tend to start in a productive manner then deteriorate. He (rightfully, if I'm being honest) didn't think I would like whatever book he might pick. LOL! The book forum here seems to get very little action. So, any ideas?...

We've got "After the Affair" and I don't love it. Can't put my finger on why.

He has already read "How to help your spouse heal..."

I've listened to a few other infidelity books on Audible and honestly they all seem to say the same stuff.

I'm listening to "The Body Keeps the Score" and I think it's a bit much for him, but I've bookmarked passages to share with him.

The two topics I would most like to learn more about or work on together are how the fact that this was close friend (double/triple) betrayal has made this so much more devastating (so many more layers of pain!), and the genuine element of PTSD I'm still struggling with. I think he doesn't fully grasp either one.

Does "Not Just Friends" address those two topics very much?

I also considered that just a marriage-health book would be a better way to help us more forward. Or if not now, maybe the next book if this "book club" approach goes well.

Drop me some suggestions please!

For me, personally, I believe if our partner doesn't have the empathy needed, then reconciliation is infinitely harder. I mean, if my partner can't understand what I was put through, I wouldn't want my future built on that.

So, at least to me, empathy is huge.

Maybe you should let him read The Body Keeps Score? How did he respond to How to Help Your Spouse Heal?

I have a list of the books and podcasts I have been reading/listening to. Take what you need, leave the rest

Books and resources

- [ ] After the affair by Janis Abrahms Spring

- [ ] Emotional infidelity by m. Gary Neuman

- [ ] Transcending post infidelity stress disorder by Dennis c ortman

- [ ] Feeling good by David d burns

- [ ] The power of vulnerability by Brene brown

- [ ] After a good man cheats. By Caroline madden

- [ ] Fool me once by Caroline madden

- [ ] What makes love last by John Gorman and nan silver

- [ ] The body keeps score by Bessel Van Der kolk

- [ ] Out of the doghouse by Robert Weiss

- [ ] Worthy of her trust by Stephen Arterburn

- [ ] The power of now by Eckhart Tolle

- [ ] Daring greatly by brene brown

- [ ] The mindful way through depression by Jon kabat zinn (didn’t finish. It’s on hold again)

- [ ] Mindfulness for beginners by Jon kabat zinn

- [ ] Feeling good together by David d burns

- [ ] Fighting for your marriage by Howard I mark man

- [ ] The state of affairs by Esther perel

- [ ] Mind sight by Daniel j Siegel (unfinished)

- [ ] The healthy mind tool kit by Alice boyes (unfinished)

- [ ] Love worth making by Stephen Snyder

- [ ] Happily ever after by Gary Chapman

- [ ] How can I forgive you by Janis abrahms spring

- [ ]

Podcasts

- [ ] The recovery room by Tim Tedder

- [ ] Healing broken trust By Brad and Morgan Robinson

- [ ] From Betrayal to breakthrough by debi silber

- [ ] Unlocking us by brene brown

- [ ] Small things often by the Gottman institute

I'm just starting Living and Loving After Betrayal by Steven Stosny and it is very good. I watched his youtube video seminars and really liked what he was saying. It is the right message for me at the right time.

Next up is the Body Keeps the Score. I just finished Cheating in a Nutshell and it was depressing and I don't think it would recommend it for a couple to work through together.

Try transcending post-infidelity stress disorder. Also anything by brene brown.

We listen to podcasts and talk about them too. Some are helpful, some are not. Some just get us talking.

I am re-listening to How can I forgive you by Janis abrahms spring. It could be helpful for you and the friend betrayal.

I think it’s a good sign that your H is open to exploring a book together.

I'm just starting Living and Loving After Betrayal by Steven Stosny and it is very good. I watched his youtube video seminars and really liked what he was saying. It is the right message for me at the right time.

I second this book. Actually, I think it's helpful for life, in general, and not just with regard to betrayal. I like how he reframed his mother's death in order to process it and come to terms with it. I think that's extremely useful.

Next up is the Body Keeps the Score. I just finished Cheating in a Nutshell and it was depressing and I don't think it would recommend it for a couple to work through together.

I'm not reconciling - that being said, would you recommend Cheating in a Nutshell to someone like me?

Yes, if R is no longer a concern, I think Cheating in a Nutshell will put a lot of what you've been through into perspective. It was a very quick read, very good overview with little to no excuses for W behavior, and almost no support or advice to attempt R. It would have been a better read for me if my M was over, because it is so brutally honest and comes from a definite viewpoint that made me uncomfortable because it was not wrong. Maybe not so much healing for me as it was validating.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 9:09 AM, March 10th, 2021 (Wednesday)]

I don't get it. I think it's a way for your H to distance himself from himself, and that's the 100% wrong approach, as hard as it is to be 100% wrong.

Is your H in therapy? If s, what had he been doing to change? Does he need to change what he's doing in therapy? Does he need a new therapist? Or does he still have to start?

Gently, nothing your H can say or do can do much to heal your PTSD. Are you in IC? What are you doing? How much EMDR have you done? Have you tried any of the other techniques that help resolve PTSD? Have they helped? (Look up 'emotional freedom technique' for a weird way to deal with trauma on your own, if you haven't seen EFT before. It's something that's easy to try out.)

Don't get me wrong. It might help to structure conversations, but the structure has to come from the 2 of you, IMO. It won't come from a book.

IOW, your H probably has an idea of what structure he wants. My guess is that he's just not willing to ask for it, or maybe he's not willing to be vulnerable enough to share his thoughts with you.

So he cheats with a good close friend. You suffer. Terribly.

And he doesn’t like the way the conversation goes?

Hmmm.....not sure about this one. If my H during R didn’t like “how the conversation went” I had two responses. There’s the door is 1. Suffer the consequences for your Iying and cheating and kicking me to the curb during your affair is the 2nd.

Your H should be helping you and willing to do whatever it takes IMO. And sometimes maybe figure out what HE can do to support you. Maybe just listening is what you need.

Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by Gottman is a great resources for structuring your conversations/conflicts and using the same language to communicate.

It is NOT really meant for solving infidelity in itself. But if you find you are having communication breakdowns a lot, it will help you set better ground rules. It will also help identify your marital strengths and weaknesses aside from the A.

Would also recommend the imago dialogue technique which you can find online to structure your conversations

Cheating in a Nutshell might give him an idea of how damaging infidelity is for the BS and the odds of getting over it while with the cheater are very slim. It's not a book for R, but it definitely is validating. I actually liked it a lot. Explained why no matter what I did I couldn't move past it while with him. My STBX was also not remorseful though and had no empathy, didn't want to discuss the A's or look at himself in any way just wanted me to go back to how I was before D-Day.

I truly believe the WS has to be the one who takes the initiative to read books and do the introspection on their own. They should be doing everything in their power to make their BS feel safe.

How 'bout, "How to Divorce a Cheating Spouse and Have a Better Life".

I hear it's a best seller.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 2:47 PM, March 10th (Wednesday)]

If you can only read one book together, my recommendation is Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. I think her work on boundaries, specifically her "walls and windows" technique is perhaps the best explanation of what should be expected in a loving, monogamous relationship. It makes it easy to see the importance of keeping the relationship emotionally intimate. Not every incident of cheating is a friendship which got out of hand, but I don't really feel like that's the takeaway. The takeaway is protecting the primary relationship and keeping interlopers at bay.

I suspect you don't like "after the affair" bc it's CHOCK FULL of subtle BS blaming. My favorite example is the chapters "for" the WS and the BS. The WS chapter talks about how there will be a time for the WS to address the (non-infidelity related) problems in the M. No such language exists in the chapter for the BS (bc, the BS would NEVER have an issue with the M or the WS before dday - only a WS would feel the M has problems). I just found waaayy too much of it to be like those 2 chapters - a bunch of inequitable and blaming language to folks who are already in unequitable situations and need to understand they did NOTHING wrong. I know a lot of folks like it, but that book is a HARD "no" for me (which is odd bc I LOVE her "how can I forgive you" book).

I am a fan of Cheating in a Nutshell, tho it is decidedly ANTI R, which is why I think it should be on the "must read" list for any WS to understand the interconnectivity of trauma/PTSD and infidelity and that even the slightest willingness to engage in R is a HUGE effing GIFT and goes against most/all of our biological impulses. However, as other BSs have mentioned, it could be very depressing / triggery to a BS.

I have about a 2' stack of infidelity books, in ADDITION to all the stuff I read thru my library (which is probably in the dozens). And it still comes down to just a handful or two that IMO have much value:

How to Help Your Spouse Heal

Not Just Friends

Cheating in a Nutshell

Help. Her. Heal (by Carol Sheets - a workbook on empathy) '

Living & Loving After Betrayal (which is really for the BS - I began it in year 1 or 2, but put it down... I picked it back up again a month or 2 ago and am getting a lot from it. So, good book, great focus on the BS working on the BS, but probably not very beneficial to a joint read with the WS)

Out of the Doghouse (which has some parts I REALLY disagree with, but overall is pretty good - there's a thread on this book [as well as Cheating in a Nutshell] in SI's book club forum).

Non infidelity books:

The Body Keeps the Score

Resilience (by Rick Hansen) - about incorporating joy into your day-to-day life.

Brene Brown - take your pick, but my fave is the audio of her "Power of Vulnerability" lecture, which is a good synthesis of her first few books.

Journey from Abandonment to Healing

As for podcasts:

2-part Marnie Breecker interview on Duane Osterlind's "The Addicted Mind"

Helping Couples Heal (which is Breecker & Osterlind doing their thing together).

I've listened to a TON of other podcasts (I had two full years of driving a LOT for my job) and didn't find anything else comes close to the Breecker/Osterlind. Mostly bc the others seem to have a lot of episodes, but not as much substance, so you could be listening for hours before you get something with meat on the bones.

I'll listen to anything by Omar Minwalla.

I was not a fan of the PISD (Post infidelity stress disorder) book

ETA: unless you feel responsible for your WH's cheating, I'd stay away from anything by Esther Perel & Mira Kirshenbaum

[This message edited by gmc94 at 10:34 PM, March 10th, 2021 (Wednesday)]

Y’all this thread is amazing. I’m sure it’s not the first one on book recommendations but I hope it remains easy to find as a resource. I need to dive into it more tomorrow.

My FWH is absolutely remorseful and doing lots of things right. I tend not to come in here and post for myself much except when I’m hurting, or I may have painted a more balanced picture. I don’t buy into the notion that if they aren’t doing a every single thing you ask and doing them exactly as you ask them they are failing at R... Especially if they are also doing things with obvious value that just don’t happen to be what you asked for (in our case the best example is that he does the vast majority of the housework and sees it as making my life easier as I heal - but since I’m not a neat freak it doesn’t pack the punch he had hoped for and he feels deflated. I’m learning to hear his love language as he keeps learning to speak mine). It doesn’t mean I stop insisting on improvement obviously.

He’s totally game for working though a book together. That step might make reading on his own feel more productive. I don’t think he trusts himself to pick the right one. He said he worries I would say he picked the wrong one. He’s probably right. But I think I’ll look more into some of these and give him a short list then let him choose. I had a fantastic talk today with my own IC (who I’ve seen off and on for years and we are very well matched. I plan to share some of it with him tomorrow because I want to loop him into what felt like some great insights today. I separately have seen someone lately who is a trauma specialist (I’ve posted about my neurofeedback and EMDR, I need to update that) and she sees us for MC - three times so far.

Anyway, fantastic lists and thank you so so much! I trust this site more than all the Amazon reviews I could have poured through!

GTeamReboot

The Body Keeps the Score & Cheating in a Nutshell

are not 'feel-good' books - they are self help and educational with respect to how homo sapiens works.

To fix something - My Granddaddy said: "If you don't know how it works, how are you going to know when it's fixed?"

For THINGS - schools teach "how it works" and THEN the troubleshooting (It's broke. How do we fix it?) exercises start.

Same for people. Some are irretrievably broken.

Cheating in a Nutshell opens a door to that situation.

To heal and move forward in life you have to decide to "fix yourself" first. Your spouse has to fix himself. Then you can work on your marriage if you get that far. If not the work you have been doing on yourself will be foundation for moving forward in life on your own.

One or the first thing to "fix yourself" is to get out of infidelity.

All of the work is not pleasant - but long term you will be better for the experience and find a new perspective on many things such that you handle the stress of life better.

First thing is be true to yourself. No accepting any kind of abuse. No accepting any kind of disrespect (which is an abuse!)

Working through a book together - kind of a bit suspicious with that one. OK, Maybe a study partner for your differential equations class. But showtime is when you are on your own. So you work through a "book together." Well-showtime is how your relations change and hope (I think that is what you want?) improve. The test is on and it is an individual effort.

So I would study for self benefit and see if spouse does the same.

A side note on books: Look up reviews like maybe Amazon. Read the negatives as well as a few "glowing positives." I have often seen a review where the reviewer posted what they said is a better book to read on the subject of the book.

I hope future bring you happiness -

Hi @GTeaamReboot, so sorry you're having to deal with the aftermath of infidelity in your marriage. From what you're saying, I think you both need to seriously consider IC and MC to help you both in your journey of R.

From my own experience, it was very hard for my H and I to work things through by ourselves because of the intense emotions involved.

Dealing with issues in our marriage and the infidelity were very difficult but thank God we had a wonderful and wise mentor who came alongside us and really helped us, counselling us for many months till we both began to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Of course reading books to help give you structure in your conversations is good but honestly feel you need more to address what has happened. A book suggestion I have for you though not specific to the two topics but hopefully you will find helpful and insightful is 'Unfaithful: Hope and healing after infidelity by Gary Shriver. Available to buy online

I hope and pray that the near future brings healing and true R for your marriage.

@Hippo16 - I’m already well into The Body Keeps the Score and it has been very interesting! I’m very sciencey so it appeals to me. Knowledge is power. I definitely feel more empowered in my healing by understanding how physical the trauma really is.

I understand the idea of he and I reading a book together seems strange to you. It feels very logical to me. It will help guide our discussions. It will give us ideas and tough topics to consider together in a proactive way rather than just reacting to the latest up or down in our lives. It was his suggestion that we read on our own then discuss, like a chapter at a time or something. Maybe I’ll be wrong. It’s worth a try.

@BellaLee - Oh I’m in IC and we see in MC. He did some IC before the pandemic but then that woman hasn’t been an option since. I’m not going to force him or make it an ultimatum. It won’t help if it’s forced. I’m not new here at all. Just hit a bad slump lately. I poured that out in the Reconciliation forum and not long after we had a good talk, which led to the book idea. Baby steps. Two forward and one back. It’s just that the last one back knocked me on my butt! So I’m regrouping.

@sisoon - to answer your questions... he started therapy before the pandemic. That woman has remained phone only the whole time and that just won’t work for him (and I agree. I mean I’m lucky if I can get a five minute conversation on the phone... and they hadn’t met enough times to have a bond that can overcome that). He’s highly skeptical of his ability to open up to a stranger. An ultimatum for forced therapy doesn’t feel very useful. Or I should say... he’s done enough other things that show progress and willingness (even if not all the things exactly as I Rx) that I’m not to that point - yet at least. I’m in IC and have done some EMDR. I go again next week. We do MC with that same woman. She’s a trauma specialist and specializes in first responders - which he is one. So maybe he will warm up to her enough to do IC with her. I would be ok with that. My talk therapy is with a woman I’ve seen off and on for years. Great fit. Our last session was very insightful. One of those breakthrough discussions which I plan to share with FWH. Very possibly my recent slump downward set me up for a meaningful bounce upward. Recovery seems like it’s often punctuated like that.