SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are right that the wayward’s choices precipitate great harm to the betrayed. I know this as a betrayed.

But what I choose to do having been betrayed is entirely my choice, not my wife’s. If I choose to have a revenge affair, or an affair, then I chose it and my wife’s pain for my misconduct is not her fault, it is mine.

Being betrayed is not a license to behave abominably without recrimination. You’ll never sell that theory here.

A revenge A is an A. A person who cheats because they think that being cheated on entitles them to cheat is ... a cheater.

and

The wayward is 100% responsible ....if the betrayed seeks someone else

I have a more nuanced view of this, presumably fueled by my own experience.

IMHO, a ONS in the wake of dday is not the same as an A. I view that as a trauma response. When I contemplated my own RA (of the ONS variety), I don't think it was nearly as much (if at all) about "entitlement" than about wanting my WH to hurt the same way as I hurt. For reasons I'll never quite understand, something inside me realized that my own RA/ONS would never make my WH hurt the way I did. That turning the tables in that way would require my own decades' long deceit, which would -in the long run- hurt ME way more than it would ever hurt him. Just bc I was able to get to that mindset (which is really astonishing when I look back at how low I was during that 1st year, and the amount of alcohol I'd consumed that evening), doesn't mean others will.

FWIW - and I'm trying to tread lightly given the thread's subject - there is no way I would have ever even considered a ONS had I not been out of my mind with post dday trauma. HOWEVER - and I do think this is important WRT HO and this thread - I have always viewed anything beyond that kind of ONS/RA in the aftermath of dday as being it's own separate A. I guess I could synthesize it to say I give some PTSD deference to the ONS form of RA, that I - personally - would not extend to anything beyond that. And I think I've been clear that I make that distinction WRT HO's WH's eighteen month A. IMHO, that goes well beyond any trauma response.

I recognize that many may disagree and that the logic, if put to other examples, may be seen as flawed (e.g., if my car is stolen, I don't get a "pass" to go out and steal a car myself. But if my car was stolen and I found the perpetrator and stole their car... we may be in different territory).

It just seems to me that the "work" of the MH BS with a ONS/RA in the wake of dday (and I'm talking like 1st 6-12 months, not years down the road), is different. We talk about WS figuring out the "whys" and "hows" of an A, and to me, damn near every "why" or "how" in the ONS RA will point to the PTSD that came about as a result of the initial dday. And TBH, had I gone through with the ONS, I think my answer would be the ultimate "because I could and because I wanted to" that any WS has to face.

And I suppose that my views on the ONS RA are in alignment with ONS generally (and I'm talking about the 'picked up a stranger at a bar' kind of ONS, not an EA with ONS PA with the same AP, as the EA itself -that led to the PA- would last beyond a single, isolated, incident). I do not question that any betrayal (EA, PA, ONS, LTA, etc) is traumatic and painful to any BS (even a former WS). And I don't believe there is any relationship between a BS's pain/trauma response and the type of A. But I do believe there MAY be differences in the WS' "work" in the wake of differing As. And maybe not.

For instance, my suspicion is that while the WS' shame will be there no matter the type of A, the level of shame may be different in a longer A vs a ONS (IOW, getting from "I am a bad person" to "I did a bad thing" is not so vast, even tho the BS getting from "WS IS bad" to "WS did something bad" may still be a long road). I also think about the difference between a single, isolated, moment of weakness, vs a long, drawn out, series of poor choices (which may be more related to the "how" part of things... the "how" a WS can be comfortable repeatedly making the choice to deceive and cheat).

I'm no therapist. I've not researched it. This is just my gut talking. I guess you could say I think there is a difference between stealing ONE cookie ONE time when a person didn't have their head on straight vs spending hours/days/weeks/months/years eyeballing the cookie jar and lusting for cookies, and taking every damn one.

ETA: in light of BSR's post, want to clarify that I don't think the WS is "responsible" for any RA, including the ONS variety. I think the PTSD is what's "responsible", and the BS is still "responsible" for the choice.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:58 PM, March 29th, 2021 (Monday)]

Well, this is interesting. I found out about my BH's affair on the day that I confessed my own. He had had an ONS eighteen months earlier, more than a year before I even thought of cheating. He had tried to confess immediately afterwards but chickened out. I told him about OM at the first opportunity after I voluntarily ended my affair. Then BH had another ONS, an RA.

According to you, tx, one of us is 100% at fault for the other's actions. Which one is it? Him, because he cheated first? Or did he evade all responsibility by hiding the A, because I didn't know I was a BS when I cheated? I had suspicions but no proof, and so I let it go. Or am I completely in the clear for everything I did because of his ONS? Do I get a Get Out Of Jail Free card? It would have been handy if you'd told me that when I got here, so I didn't waste two years working on myself to become a better person. Or is his RA the only justified cheating, because at that point, he knew what I'd done? Again, the moral of that story would be to Always Lie, because if he told me about his first A when it happened, I wouldn't have had a shred of responsibility for fucking the OM. I'm only to blame because I was successfully duped by my H and didn't keep digging for the truth.

Yes, my situation is unusual, but it illustrates the fallacy that anyone is responsible for someone else's behavior. I can be responsible for his pain but not for how he acts on that pain. He cheated, and that's on him. I cheated, and that's on me. No one gets off the hook.

And, as usual, BSR with the "spike, set, match" comment.

Again, we will agree to disagree.

The wayward spouse is 100% responsible for what happens AFTER THEIR Betrayed Spouse is made aware of the affair.

(See my posts before hand).

When the wayward cheats the betrayed will be hurt.

They Betrayed can do any of the following:

- Kick Wayward Out

- Separate

- Divorce

- Yell/Scream Fight

- Seek someone else to confide in.

- Have an affair on their own (the wayward made the marriage an open marriage, just didn't tell their betrayed spouse about it yet)

- Counseling

- Outing their spouse to everyone they know

- Treating their Wayward completely different than prior to the affair.

Any action above from the betrayed is due to the actions of the cheating.

It is 100% the waywards fault. You will not change my mind on this, you will not change many betrayed people's mind on this.

The betrayed spouse has every right at this point to do any thing they want. If the wayward doesn't like it, then the wayward can leave. Just like if the betrayed didn't like the cheating from the wayward, they can leave.

You’re the only betrayed I can remember who maintains that if they have a RA that it is the original wayward’s fault and not their own choice, me included.

Txquail, integrity is currency.

I can say I would never have cheated on my wife if she had not cheated first. Without a fucking doubt. It never even occurred to me to cheat before being betrayed. I was in contact with the woman I ended up having an RA with throughout our entire marriage because she was part of a circle of friends. She was an old FWB\non exclusive girlfriend that I was with for over 2 years before I met my wife. I ended the FWB part and went strictly just friends with her after the first date I had with my wife. This went on for over 7 years before the RA.

I told my wife before I began the RA that I wasn't going to be faithful to her. I didn't ask her permission or get a hall pass, I simply told her what I was going to do. I made no effort to hide it either. I did not lie, steal her agency, or rewrite any marital history. I didn't need to fabricate bullshit reasons or excuses either. I didn't blame any of my FOO bullshit or anything else. I stupidly put up with a bunch of MC assisted blameshifting and a foggy cheater for 18 months before starting my RA. It took about a week of me openly fucking another woman for my wife to shift her perspective. Then her tune completely changed. I had divorce papers drawn up and anytime she would raise hell I would tell her she could sign those papers and GTFO anytime she wanted.

Does that sound just like every other betrayal in JFO? Does that match your betrayal experience? SI paints infidelity with too broad a brush IMO. Society has degrees for shit like murder and sexual assault, but not SI and infidelity, somehow every A is equal.

Derp, don’t want to T/J, but is was something I felt I had to do. I had passed on opportunities from beautiful women for years and was kicking myself after she got to experience fun outside the marriage. I needed my mojo and pride back

To the original thought here. Like I said, infidelity makes one do things they never would. Like the name calling.

We had arguments over the years. As I was thinking back I said things like “ you are being an asshole, or are acting like a bitch.” In 25 years this is expected and I was told the same things. But yet, really I never said “ you ARE an asshole, or you ARE a bitch”. Small distinction, but not really.

On DDay I told her she “was a whore, she was a slut” among other things. No way in my wildest dreams would I have ever done that except for the trauma.

Same as asking for the separation. I was happy as a clam. No way without the affair does that happen

The comments in this thread are perfect case in points of the famous quote:

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions."

Ok, I know this thread has gone.... elsewhere. But in response to the original post, I find it absolutely shocking that anyone would think it's ok to whip out a personal device and watch porn during sex. I guess I am old-fashioned or something? I've heard a few examples of it. Yuck. When did people get the idea this is ok? I mean it's rude to take out your phone and start googling when you are talking to someone, everyone recognizes that, it's 100x worse to do so when you are having sex with someone.

Crazy.

I don't think BS/WS has anything to do with it.

Mods can you close this post please? Thank you.

...sorry.