SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't know about CaptainRogers, but I definitely have been humbled and surprised that not everyone has the same definition of groupie. That probably did make her feel stupid. He felt she was saying she'd like to travel around screwing band members and she now likely thinks he views her as dumb. Sucks. I wouldn't say that's on you, CaptainRogers. It's just one of those misunderstandings that wouldn't be such a big deal had infidelity not been involved.

In no way am I directing this at your W, but before I pulled the plug, I came to realize just how completely dense my STBXWW was. I guess I always knew, but after Dday, Iwas in no mood to make allowances. We had this saying in the army: you can't polish a turd. All you get is a shiny turd. Your WW just might not be a considerate person. If you are okay with that, then cool.

I looked at my WW and thought, yup, that's who you are gonna be till ya die. That doesn't work for me. I deserve way more than that. Simply put, we were unequally yoked...

I am not sure your wife is "thoughtless" (Though I am sure she is) as much as she is "careless" (in that she really doesn't care.)

- I guess it is possible that she didn't understand that she was flirting with your friend and essentially setting up a date with him – right in your face.

- I guess it is possible that she didn't understand that groupies are women (And sometimes men) who hang around famous people to be fucked by them.

But at this point, after she has already betrayed you sexually with another man, I wouldn't give her the "benefit of innocence".

These comments are very plainly disrespectful to you, anyone can see that, especially the one about working out with your friend.

It's not that she didn't think, it's that she didn't care enough to think. She has her impulses and they overrule the importance of you.

Sorry for the negative take, but that's how I see it.

We were having a great time until she decided to talk about how great it would be to be a groupie for them. I just turned my head and looked at her. And she continued to talk about it. How great it would be to go from town to town and enjoying all that time with the band and how she would really love to wait for them at the bus after the show. When we got home. She couldn't figure out why I wasn't interested in talking much.

She was actually supposed to "figure out why I wasn't talking much"? Yikes. I am not seeing the egregiousness in this misstep. Why didn't you just correct her at the time, ask her if she knew what else groupies did? Why the pouting instead?

Count me in as someone that would love to be a groupie but not offer sex. I have friends who do that now with The Avett Brothers--grown women. They go town to town and sing every song, but they never offer sex. They still call themselves groupies and tell me that others do this with The Avett Brothers, too. Sex is not required. People do follow bands.

She was actually supposed to "figure out why I wasn't talking much"? Yikes. I am not seeing the egregiousness in this misstep.

Never said that she was supposed to figure that out on her own. No misstep in any of that.

MC: I guess I'm just thoughtless. I didn't mean to bring up old wounds. Just tell me when it happens. I need you to do that so I can learn.

I’m in a different category than you, I realize. At least I believe you are wanting a close, intimate relationship with your wife, and I’m hoping for a glimmer of life out of my H.

But the above quote from your initial post in this thread made me feel hopeful for y’all...until I read your disappointment in her statement.

Personally, I took her comment to be quite positive… Not that she thought it was your place to always interpret/redirect/be in charge of her thoughts and words. But that she said that she wanted you to let her know, so that she could learn. That just sounds hopeful to me.

Of course, I’m not trying to tell you what you should feel about what happened, because you’re in the middle of this situation and I’m not.

I hope you are mistaken about this conversation, and that she really was not being insensitive or callous… Just less informed than you think she should be. I was born in 1953, so raised in the 60s and 70s. I think I have known that sometimes being a “groupie“ involved sex, but I certainly did not think it was necessarily part of “following the band”.

I wish you good luck.

Cap,

Are you sure this one is actually a WW issue instead of a Cap issue? I know there are plenty of members here who are very quick to jump on Mrs. Cap for even the slightest perception or wrongdoing (rightfully so since she was an iceblock for years), BUT you also know there are many members here quick to jump on Mrs. Cap.

Your last couple posts have given the vibe of being rooted in fear. The more progress your wife makes in her efforts, the more I see you seeking negative feedback about your W from a group likely to give you the confirmation bias type responses your lizard brain needs to keep her at arms length.

It would make sense. She abused you on an emotional level for years. You never thought she would put effort into getting better, and you resigned yourself to putting up with a "roomate/pseudo-wife" for the rest of your days. You got comfortable in your own numbness. You entered into this counseling with a preconceived notion that she was full of shit, and it would lead nowhere. You may have expressed a glimmer of hope, but you never truly expected anything to change.

Now you're starting to see changes, and you're seeking justifications to keep your wall up. If you let that wall down, then you give her the power to hurt you again. Are you really ready to let your wife back on your team again?

FWIW...I could be totally wrong, and that's okay too. It's just the vibe I get from your posting history, and I only hear your side of any story.

When your wife was actually being detached, cold, calculating, and was unwilling to admit she had work to do on herself...that was when you protected her the most. It came across as a sibling-like, protective form of love. You could vent about her, but the minute someone else said something negative, you were (at least on some level) right there to her defense. You made a lot of excuses for her when she was refusing to try, or at least gave plenty of reasons why you chose to stay. Now that she seems to be actually trying, your posts have shifted to a tone of subtly seeking others to confirm she is in fact irredeemable.

From my side over here looking in, it seems as if you are (if only a little) starting to punish her for trying, not because you want to hurt her, but out of your own fear of letting her in again. Self preservation. Can you bear to put yourself in a position where she could truly hurt you again?

She was awful to you for a LONG time. It really is okay for you to never trust her again. If that's the case though, you owe it to yourself to admit your own truth. Cap is worth putting himself first. Admitting your deepest fears to yourself is a huge step in the direction of taking away their power. Ultimately, you get to make the decision of which outcome you desire. You can't force it to be where you actually end up, but there is power in admitting what you truly want.

She could do everything right, have it come from the most authentic places, and it would still never make you a bad person for walking away. At the same time, you don't have to reject her attempts to grow in order to justify staying for reasons that don't include a desire to be vulnerable to her, and love her like you once did.

I get the feeling that, now, the ball is finally really in your court. When you've been battered like you have, that's a scary realization to admit. There is no right or wrong answer, but there is what's right for Cap. Only you can decide what that will be.

Duplicate.

[This message edited by Lostgirl410 at 1:18 AM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

I don't know Lostgirl410, inviting Cap's friend on a workout date is highly inappropriate in almost any circumstance (There may be an exception for some reason regular faithful couples) but in light of the fact she is a) a cheater, and b) went on workout dates with her sleazebag affair partner, I hardly feel that Cap is seeing ghosts in the shadows.

Just my opinion.

My other opinion: Cap! Trust your gut! You know what's up.

Just an observation, with no advice:-

And Im just a guy who grew up in the sticks, 10 miles from a town of 700 people...and my wife grew up in the same place.

Going to paraphrase here:

"You can take the gal out of the sticks, but you can't take the sticks out of the gal."

She seems to be stuck in Bambi innocence mode in her thinking and outlook in life, and does not seem to have any situational awareness in her life.

I get the same vibe as Lostgirl. Idk, but it does feel a little like she can't win. I mean, her personality is not going to change no matter what, Captain. Just her choices.

11. He (she) must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.

She did ask why you were quiet. That reasonably could be perceived as her recognizing you were struggling. That would have been the best time to tell her.

That being said, the invite to work out is a solid indicator that she does not fully get it yet or is not capable of the level of mindfulness that would make you safe from hearing those kind of things again. She may prove herself safe from cheating again, but that does not guarantee she will change who she is and how she thinks or does not think through what she says.

Never again cheating does not mean they will be safe in all ways or even just comforting to be with. That is a different animal all together. Is she who you want to be with, even if not ever cheatnig.

[This message edited by DIFM at 7:29 AM, July 21st, 2021 (Wednesday)]

It does seem like there is an expectation of a personality change, not just an increase in empathy and/or the ability to become a safe partner.

Is that even possible?

Perhaps she is signaling interest in a more liberal sexual life?

Bringing the workout friend as a joke, and them this groupie stuff... seems to me she is trying to bring erotic talk in, and don't know how to do it. It's possible?

Did you ever talked about fantasies? Swing, liberal stuff?

Do you consider yourself as being R with your wife?

I feel like you might be on the edge of being R but your fully not there because your still looking for that one little thing from her to push you guys over to being fully R.

I could be wrong. But it’s the feeling I get. It’s like that one last push you need but she is not getting there. And maybe that’s why it’s so easy for you to be looking at the little things because that’s want you are needing.

No, I don't believe you should be the thought police, or that she should expect you to police her thoughts. Partner-Partner interactive conversations give insight to thoughts and feedback to each other. Your dynamic seems stuck in parent-child type communication where there's a power imbalance. My feedback also goes against your confirmation bias answers:

C: Why don't you go look up what a "groupie" is.

Very much how I might have spoken to my kids about an issue. How about "I think we have different definitions of groupie - what is your definition?" Yes, your definition triggered you, but assuming/projecting she means what it means to you or anyone else is part of the communication issue. After hearing her definition, explain your definition. Going about it by "why don't you go look it up" is a kind of deflection to avoid hearing her thoughts and having a partner to partner interactive conversation on those details.

MC: [after finding the definition] Oh my. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean that I wanted to travel with the band and have sex with them. I guess I didn't know what the word meant.

I'm closing in on 60 and I've learned more than a few new definitions of common words in just the past 5-10 years. Answered like an embarrassed child would.

C: How are you almost 50 years old and have no idea what that word meant?

MC: I guess I'm just thoughtless. I didn't mean to bring up old wounds. Just tell me when it happens. I need you to do that so I can learn.

C: [inside voice...I'm not the thought police...how about you just think about what you say before you say it...you're a grown ass woman for crying out loud...]

Parent-child mode again. But she did say good things in bold. Did that scare you that she might be trying?

I get that you're fearful and frustrated. Hope your MC works on the communication issue you both have. My definition of a marital relationship is not one that goes into parent-child mode to handle issue. Yes, I'm blunt about what I see.

Interesting parent/child analogy. With that I can see why both parties are having issues. Cap doesn't want a child - he wants a partner. Mrs. Cap wants to please to keep feeding that part of her that isn't yet able to fill herself so she looks to Cap to fill it for her. The two parties are at odds with their needs.

My IC called this the infinity loop - and it was very exhausting. We both had to change and it is hard for the BS to want to change when we feel it wasn't our fault. But if we want to make it work we have to address the true issues.

It seems to me that once Mrs. Cap can demonstrate that she is asking to learn from Cap for his sake rather than hers there might be movement. It is too hard to tell right now but there are signs of movement.

Groupie - I always held to the notion that they were women who wanted to get close to the male musicians and hoped to get lucky.

“ It seems to me that once Mrs. Cap can demonstrate that she is asking to learn from Cap for his sake rather than hers there might be movement.”

I think this is the crux of the issue I am dealing with too. For more than five years my wife has asked “What do you want me to do?” followed by “I can do that.” And yet no initiative. I take this to mean it is simply not something she deems important.

Like for instance: during the affair one day the AP said “I haven’t got my hug yet.” And she got her hug that day ... and more. And as anyone who knows me here, for almost 6 years now I have been emphasizing my need for “a hug,” “THE hug,” any “heartfelt hug.”

She’s not asking for ME, she’s asking to sound attentive.