SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Northern:

does your wife have the burden to accommodate you for the rest of her life?

No, I wouldn't say that, it is too general. I feel comfortable with the blanket statement that she needs to be vigilant for the rest of her life. After the A I have needs for safety that I didn't have before, and those needs are very real, and I expect my spouse to understand that. In my example I accommodated moving to a beach community, and I would expect her to come to the table and respond to my concerns with understanding.

I don't understand how you can achieve an equal partnership at all if this is the case. I am curious.

I agree with you. This is why I don't hold the position that she needs to accommodate me in all things. Gottman councils helping your partner reach their dreams. If we're both doing that, we'll have an equal partnership.

find fWW hanging out in the pool talking to guys without me.

If she's in her early 60s hanging around a pool trying to flirt with guys, it's going to be kinda creepy, just sayin’

Thank you. CT, for starting this very thought-provoking thread. I am struck once again by the very thoughtful and articulate postings here on SI. I came across this thread earlier this am and determined to come back to it when I could read every posting slowly and carefully. So much of it is relevant to my own healing and R with my husband. We’ve been at it for over a year now and experienced every one of the emotions described. I was deeply touched reading the quote you posted, Thumos, from Desmond Tutu. In fact, it made me weep. I’ve printed it off to save. Will share with my H. It’s a very important question you posed CT I think and expresses how I’ve felt lately. I also saved from some time ago another CT posting that explained your accountant’s method of needing at some point to “write off” the “remaining” betrayal debt as uncollectible - in order to try to reestablish a balance/equality between partners. And yet I also so resonate to the desire expressed in that earlier posting to demand/exact some sort of justice (murder in self-defense, perhaps?). I don’t have anything nearly as astute to add to all that has already been posted on this thread so far. I really just wanted to chime in with my thanks for this continuing discussion, which is important and helpful. At a little over a year post Dday my H and I are overall doing well in R I think we’d both say – while experiencing (at least speaking for myself) every feeling and thought of the rollercoaster of emotions described so very well in this thread

HowCouldSheDoIt - Sorry to t/j but I have been following your story closely but am now confused. In your original post and profile you explain how your wife went on vacation with your adult daughter in November 2020 and she had a ONS with a forty year old construction worker. In this thread you posted

This is the type of example I'm thinking of... My WW had a fling in a beach condo, hanging around the common area, flirting in the pool, monkey-jungle-sex while looking out on the ocean, etc. As a result, beach condos are on my shit-list.

But fast forward 10 years and we now live in a beach community, and I find fWW hanging out in the pool talking to guys without me. It causes a rift. She feels it has been 10 years, I should trust her.

Because of the A, I feel her insensitivity can lead to me needing to D after all these years, and I will not have sinned.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your post, did your wife have the ONS 10 years ago or in 2020?

TooOld

At a little over a year post Dday my H and I are overall doing well in R I think we’d both say – while experiencing (at least speaking for myself) every feeling and thought of the rollercoaster of emotions described so very well in this thread

Shockt, just be prepared. Do some more reading. Individual counseling. You're only a little over a year post DDAY. I can tell you that some substantial emotions (or lack thereof) haven't really hit you yet. You probably think you couldn't be more angry. You're probably wrong. The depths of your anger will surprise you. Read "Cheating in a Nutshell." Additionally POLF is fairly common in the second year, where you feel nothing.

These fairly common experiences are why I contend that the "2-5 years" timeline so often cited here is NOT about reconciliation. It's really only about a BS getting equilibrium, and even then walking around with some substantial scars. Only after this period do things become more clear. That's why I think putting the arbitrary deadline of "5 years" cited here is unhelpful.

I'm only now figuring out really whether I want to D or R, and I'm nearly 5 years out. That said, my WW did a lot of footdragging on a timeline and polygraph. Because of this I didn't get a timeline and polygraph until three years after D-DAY 1, almost to the day. Then I was told a few weeks after my WW failed her polygraph that I'd had a heart attack. It's crystal clear to me that the stress I endured brought this on. Thankfully for me, I did NOT have a heart attack, and it was a false reading -- but it was an eye opener for me that the stress my WW was almost solely responsible for was creating substantial physical damage and risk for me.

I was dead set on divorce at that point, in early 2020. Then guess what happened? A worldwide pandemic happened.

I figured I'd have to be a real shitheel to divorce my wife and leave my family in the lurch in the midst of a global mini-apocalypse. So I didn't.

Since then, I've been vacillating a lot and giving much thought recently to a therapeutic separation.

So I'm really more like under two years out from a second D-Day in Dec. 2019. Considering the clock really gets reset with each gobsmackingly stupid thing a WS does or says, or doesn't do, I think the "5 years" is not a useful guide for most people.

Hang in there.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:17 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

TooOld:

I can see how the words are confusing. The adultery was Nov 2020, and in my example I was forecasting 10 years into the future. It also might add context that my WW wants to live on or near a beach. I want nothing to do with that lifestyle right now. But as I heal, as she heals, as the marriage heals, I can see changing my mind.

Thumos:

If she's in her early 60s hanging around a pool trying to flirt with guys, it's going to be kinda creepy, just sayin’

That comment sounds just a tiny bit vilifying of older women and their sexuality.

Here's something I've been thinking about for a long time... what is our responsibility as BS's to achieve real healing when we decide to keep our WS? Should there be some kind of unwritten "statute of limitations" where we either need to shit or get off the pot when it comes to REAL forgiveness, meaning that our WS gets to live a normal life again. Or is cheating a "life sentence" and we can just treat that WS like shit for the rest of the marriage?

1) If you R, you never treat your WS like shit. Expressing feelings is not treating WS like shit. Calling names for some months is not treating WS like shit. Rubbing WS's nose in the A for a couple of years is not treating WS like shit. These are pretty normal human behaviors when betrayed.

2) 'Real healing' is for oneself. The BS owes themself healing no matter what they choose to do with their M.

If the BS chooses to stay, I think they owe themself a good relationship. Why stay with someone one hates or even just feels uncomfortable with?

3) Forgiveness doesn't have to be on the table. But harping on the A(s) hurts the harper(?!) as well as the harpee, so if harping goes on too long, it may mean the relationship is best put into the past.

I was shocked to find I had forgiven my W.

But even now, 10+ years out, I'll ask a question if I want to. I'll share significant triggers, but not trivial ones, for example when I watch a show or movie in which someone who reminds me of my W cheats.

4) The SI 2-5 year rule of thumb is for recovery, not for R(econciliation), and it's a guideline, not a rule.

5) Above all, R is not a project. It may have a beginning, but IMO, R doesn't actually end ... it morphs into M. The same skills are needed for R and M. The obstacles to R are analogs of the obstacles to M. The work one does to R is essentially the same work one does to maintain an M. Both R and M are about 2 people living together, and all that involves.

Again, what about the people showing up here 15, 20, 40 years later?

For the most part - maybe for all of these sitches - people whose d-days were 15, 20, 40 years ago who are in agony now generally did a lot of rug-sweeping after d-day.

Rug-sweeping is an understandable choice, but it is one of the riskiest things people do.

The A causes permanent damage and has a permanent price.

Um ... OK.

I had to deal with the trauma of being betrayed (among other traumas). Other people - friends of mine, for sure - have to deal with other traumas. I worked hard to process the pain out of my body. Somewhere between 3.5 and 4 years our from d-day, I felt healed. I know people who needed a lot more time to heal from traumas they experienced. Life is rarely perfect.

Even if genuine forgiveness and reconciliation are achieved....

Again, forgiveness may come; it may not. I never expected to forgive my W, but I have no desire to see her punished or to gain vengeance, etc., and that' my understanding of forgiveness. I'm glad it came to me, but what I was looking for was for us to live moment-to-moment

in a good M, one in which we helped each other be better people, leading more joyful and satisfying lives, together than we would apart.

The A was traumatic, but we also had good times, soul-satisfying times that I just never came close to with other people. And I've had soul-satisfying times since the A.

*****

Statue of Limitations

My W still doesn't get what I think is the secret of life (See Eric Berne). She still hasn't healed from the pain that enabled her to cheat. She's better, but she may never heal completely. That's a problem for me, but I can't change that.

But as someone said above, incremental improvement keeps me going.

My W showed her commitment to me and to our M by consistently telling the truth and by being more and more authentic as time went on. That gave me more confidence that we would succeed in R, and that, I think, in turn made the A have less and less impact in our life.

Dietrich is supposed to have said, 'Once a woman has forgiven her man, she must not reheat his sins for breakfast.' I think that works if you use non-gender-specific words, too. Six months out from d-day i might have played the A card to get my W to do something. Six years out, the A wasn't a factor.

So there is, I think, a time limit for reheating sins, but I think it's so variable that we can't come up with a meaningful heuristic.

*****

Wow, so many good responses and things to think about..

grubs

I think it's only prudent for the BS to trail the WS in healing. Trust takes time to rebuild through consistent actions. The WS has to fix themselves first so they can show that consistency. If the WS takes 2 years to become a true candidate for R, I wouldn't expect the BS to move to a good candidate themselves for 3-4 years.

I hadn't thought about that in terms of "trailing", and I do see your point when it comes to R. In order to reconcile the marriage, we really do have to develop some confidence that our WS is making real and lasting changes. But I've always thought of my own healing as separate from what's happening in the marriage. IOW, I've set goals and challenges for myself that had nothing to do with the marriage. I do see your point though.

NorthernMSB

Hanging that over someone forever and forever is unproductive and if that is what you need to do then divorce. It will hurt you more in the long run and life is too short.

YES. This exactly. One of the first things that occurred to me in the aftershock of DDay was that I did NOT want to become the stereotype "bitter divorcee". My parents divorced when I was a young teen and Lord, the nastiness. He never failed to complain about writing the measly child support checks which didn't even keep us in shoes and she never failed to refer to him as a "sawed-off-son-of-a-bitch". Then, of course, when they got old an sick, it was all "oh, he was my only real love" and "through it all, I always cared about your mother".

It was actually quite terrifying in the moment, the thought of allowing my WH's betrayal to turn me into something I so did NOT want to be. From the first month really, my barometer for making choices was "what's going to result in less bitterness?"

This0is0Fine

The A causes permanent damage and has a permanent price. Even if genuine forgiveness and reconciliation are achieved, this is still true. Don't like losing implicit trust? Don't cheat. Don't like giving electronic transparency? Don't cheat. A good R includes a permanent transference of vigilance from the BS to the WS. My wife should tell me if she thinks something might make me anxious, and she does.

I agree that there are some scars and there are some permanent changes, things like all the passwords going into one book. But I live by our new way of doing business same as he does. There's no "vigilance" really. It's just a very open way of being, not secretive. I didn't WANT a relationship with a partner who's in the permanent one-down and that's not what's going on here. I can check through all his stuff and he can check through all mine. Neither of us bothers doing that though. I'm confident that if he ever gets up to any shenanigans again, I'll catch him... and it won't take me as long.

stubbornft

If I felt that 5, 10, 20 years later I would still think less of him for what he did, still didn't really respect or trust him, then what would be the point?

Exactly. You were able to identify pretty early that your WH wasn't going to fit the bill for R. I think so much of what hinders us as BS's is that we aren't willing to admit that there just hasn't been enough growth in the WS, and maybe even that we don't have enough feeling for them from the outset to put ourselves through all that. Like you, I was thinking about who I wanted to be five or ten years down the pike, and I certainly didn't want to be bitter in my marriage, chained to someone who couldn't do anything right anymore in the marriage.

Seeking2Forgive

WSs have to go through the process of achieving true remorse and full transparency at their own pace. BSs, in turn, have to go through their healing process at their own pace.

Agreed. The thread title is a bit provocative in order to get us thinking.

How do you count it if the WS takes years to provide what the BS needs to heal? How do you count someone like me who would have told you six months ago that they were fully healed only to discover that they weren't?

I think we have to take some responsibility for allowing the WS to dither if they are wasting YEARS, don't you? Maybe we feel like they'll come through and it's a good investment, but we do have CHOICE. We don't have to stand by and allow the dithering. Don't we have to take ownership of how we allowed our time to be spent?

I do have a theory for why a BS can get triggered years after they believed they were healed and then feel like the past has become present again. I think it has to do with memory storage during trauma. Have you ever tried EMDR? I'll tell you what makes me think this... I noticed after my WH's betrayal that even though many years had gone by, I felt angry with my parents again. When I read through a copy of The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson, the author pointed out how our earlier abandonments and trauma can be magnified by the new one. In one of her exercises, a dissociative exercise called Big/Little, she encourages you to imagine yourself very young, like four years old, and to listen to what that inner child has to say. Sounds real goofy, I know. But when I tried it... ...boy howdy, was my "Little" ever pissed at Mom and Dad. lol

My WH's betrayal had broken open these old scars and they were seething under my feelings toward him. The brain makes weird connections sometimes, the more stress and trauma, the weirder it can get. I think sometimes that it's possible to get a trigger and have something that we thought was resolved or buried, suddenly erupt again. And it makes me wonder if the answer isn't reprocessing.

Is only "real forgiveness" considered "real healing" or is acceptance sufficient?

I don't know. Like I said, I can't personally really accept the word "forgiveness" in reference to my fWH's betrayal. I call it "balancing the ledger" or "cleaning the slate" and maybe it amounts to the same thing. Maybe it doesn't. I don't worry much about the semantics of it. I just don't hold him in contempt or debt at this point.

sewardak

But it happened organically and I would suggest that for others.

What happens for people who aren't making progress though?.. particularly if their interactions are volatile, contemptuous, or otherwise actively unhappy? I mean, I think you're right. For most people it works out that way. But what do we say to people who are seriously stuck? Sometimes it's not a WS problem. Sometimes its a BS problem. We do have our own work to do after an intimate betrayal, don't we? And it's not fair that we got thrust into this deep dark hole, but we still have to struggle and climb to get back out into the light, right?

That comment sounds just a tiny bit vilifying of older women and their sexuality.

Oh come on, now. I'd say the same about a dirty old man, and so would you. And in fact, so many have on this very site time after time. No one accused them of vilifying old men. Why does everything have to get so prickly? Sense of humor and all that.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:13 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

It also might add context that my WW wants to live on or near a beach. I want nothing to do with that lifestyle right now. But as I heal, as she heals, as the marriage heals, I can see changing my mind.

Well, it seems pretty far from healing based on your recent reports.

But I think the more important question is where do YOU want to live? Be selfish. You deserve it.

I myself have no interest in living near a beach. If I could choose, I'd live in the Rockies.

Ask yourself where you want to live, not her.

HowCouldSheDoIt, Thank you for the clarification. Sending strength for your difficult journey.

TooOld

HowCouldSheDoIt

I got a lot of comfort from this concept, that there is no statue of limitations, and the "D is always an acceptable response to A" has no expiration.

I agree. I get a lot of comfort from having an active CHOICE about where to plant my feet every day. Taking ownership of that choice, the choice to be here, the choice to keep trying, has been a cornerstone of my healing. For me, I don't care about "biblical" responses to adultery. In most jurisdictions, legally people don't need a reason to divorce these days.

The question I'm turning over in my mind though is "at what point does our inability to forgive and heal become abusive to the WS. Are we morally responsible to shit or get off the pot? Having the CHOICE to stay or go has been an important component in my healing, and still... I can't imagine letting that go. I also can't imagine truly acting on it. After this amount of time and effort, wouldn't that blindside the WS? What if I waited another ten years and then acted on it? You see the conundrum. It's a good tool and I'm loathe to part with it. In fact, I don't intend to part with it. But does that make me a bad person?

NorthernMSB

There has to be a moment when things are normal again and life is not defined by this shit. It can't be brought up again and again, used to win a point, or place the cheating spouse in a "one down" position for the rest of their life. That would also border on abuse I would think. Yes. Affairs obviously leave a lasting scar and there is never a moment when things are the same but it has to end sometime.

Exactly. Shouldn't there be a goal? Shouldn't we have a destination in mind?.. an endpoint? I realize, particularly after my above commentary with HCSDI, that there ARE some leftovers, some scars, some blind spots even? And it's not like we can sit down and predict exactly how long it will take to achieve the benchmarks we set for ourselves along the way, but isn't the eventual goal normalization of the relationship. Equal partners again?

Hippo16

Does the WS get to "live life normal" again? Well, Who defines the normal? Well the NEW normal now includes the memory of the marital vow transgression. I doubt any spouse would want that as a "normal."

Why can't "normal" mean normal? Why does there need to be a Scarlet Letter? I mean, yeah.. there are scars and there are new ways of doing daily business. But that doesn't have to mean that the WS stays in the one-down, right?

Rhetorical question: How much does the WS have to give or do to suppress the pain in the BS? Is the pain the BS experiencing when the memory creeps into consciousness worth the benefits of staying with the WS?

I think only the BS can answer if it's worth it. Why stay with a WS if it's not worth it though? At a certain point, and actually before it was really comfortable for me, I stopped bringing triggers to my fWH. My thought was that if it's something he can do something about, then yeah, bring it. But if there was nothing he could do, if it was just done for the sake of making him feel bad?.. why would I trade what's going on NOW, for what happened years ago? Why ruin a moment in the present in order to share a misery from the past? Instead, I learned to manage the trigger. Triggers suck. But they aren't real. They aren't current. Feelings aren't facts. It's super hard at first, I'll grant you. But we're not talking about the first months or even the first couple of years. But yes, there did come a point for me at which I was unwilling to give in to triggers. Don't get me wrong. This wasn't until AFTER I had allowed myself to be swallowed up by a really nasty bout of depression. And maybe that's what caused me to start looking to myself first when checking emotions. It was like fighting my way back up from a deep black hole, scrabbling for handholds, tearing flesh and fingernails on the way up, just trying to get the scent of fresh air. My WS might have caused the crisis, but that fight was internal, if that makes sense.

Shockt

And yet I also so resonate to the desire expressed in that earlier posting to demand/exact some sort of justice

I don't think there is any justice. My fWH put me through Hell. I never even knew I could hurt like that. I never thought it was possible for anyone to cause me that much anguish. But, like you all know... I was WRONG.

What coin pays for that? What is the set value of pain, agony, existential crisis, abandonment, all of it? Even cheating back can't cover it. Leaving can't cover it. It's utterly unfair, but short of becoming monsters ourselves, there's nothing that can make us even... and nothing that will make what happened okay.

I'm convinced at this point that we simply have to accept that... that NOTHING will make what happened to us okay. It wasn't okay.

I do think we have to make a conscious decision to accept that this bad thing happened and that even though our WS is responsible for it, if we have opted for R, we have also opted to refrain from punishment. And that's hard. Every instinct tell us to get even, to protect ourselves, to teach that WS a lesson. But to harm the WS is to harm the emotional intimacy that you need to reestablish within the marriage. You can't hurt the WS without hurting your own goals, your own self. It sucks, because it goes against every instinct we have. We're not only foregoing vengeance, we're putting ourselves out there and making ourselves vulnerable. It's preposterous! But that's R. We can't achieve the goal and hold onto the need to punish.

sisoon

Calling names for some months is not treating WS like shit. Rubbing WS's nose in the A for a couple of years is not treating WS like shit. These are pretty normal human behaviors when betrayed.

Normal doesn't mean right though, does it? It's understandable that people lose their temper when they've been abused and traumatized. That shouldn't mean that it's okay to abuse and traumatize in return. I never called my WS names, never rubbed his nose in his behavior. I might be the exception to the rule, I dunno. But I like to think that if I had done those things, I'd forgive myself and then correct the behavior going forward, not indulge it. If we felt the need to start plucking our own hairs out in response to the shock and trauma, we would hopefully take steps to stop that behavior before we're bald, right? What makes this different? Why would we accept abuse as "normal" and then let it stand?

Dietrich is supposed to have said, 'Once a woman has forgiven her man, she must not reheat his sins for breakfast.' I think that works if you use non-gender-specific words, too. Six months out from d-day i might have played the A card to get my W to do something. Six years out, the A wasn't a factor.

So there is, I think, a time limit for reheating sins, but I think it's so variable that we can't come up with a meaningful heuristic.

Agreed.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 4:18 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

CT, do you think R is a massive compromise in which the WS gets the longer end of the stick?

It seems to me that the WS is not the one that is "one down", it's the BS. The BS is the loser here. The WS is returning to a marriage where they know the BS considers them before all others. The WS has a faithful spouse and all the perks that go along with that knowledge. This is not the case for the BS. The BS knows that under a certain set of circumstances the WS will choose to risk hurting them for selfish "gain". If nothing else, the WS sees the destruction and devastation of the BS post d day and gets the ego kibbles of seeing the BS go through all of the machinations of coming to terms with what's happened despite being shat upon by the WS.

Maybe I have different definitions or understanding about what healed means. I think there's more than a scar if buying ice cream 5 years into R causes you some mental turmoil. That still sounds like a wound to me.

Here's something I've been thinking about for a long time... what is our responsibility as BS's to achieve real healing when we decide to keep our WS? Should there be some kind of unwritten "statute of limitations" where we either need to shit or get off the pot when it comes to REAL forgiveness, meaning that our WS gets to live a normal life again. Or is cheating a "life sentence" and we can just treat that WS like shit for the rest of the marriage? Once a cheater, always a cheater.. to hell with their remorse.

I do think for those BS's attempting R in earnest that there does need to be a shit or get off the pot moment. That is of course assuming that the WS is also committed to R - transparency, full truth, IC, reading... the works. In my case, I wanted R so bad, but I had a WS that wanted R so long as it meant he never had to do any actual work or deal with his choice to cheat. In my case, I never would have reached the SOGOTP moment because he continued to act like a head up tookas wayward.

I also don't think that the BS choosing to SOGOTP necessarily equals forgiveness. I think it is possible to R without forgiving the infidelity - maybe just me, but infidelity is pretty unforgivable to me. IMHO, forgiveness rarely has anything to do with the other party - that is a state of grace and peace that I reach in myself.

As far as the WS 'living a normal life'... I mean... if I had stayed with mine, I don't see us ever getting back to 'normal'. Maybe that is just because mine wasn't willing to do his work, maybe that is completely different with a WS who is doing all that. But I think that periodic checking by the BS is not only normal, but pretty healthy.

I'm with Dee though - with the benefit of hindsight R never would have worked for me because I wouldn't have ever gotten there. Not that I would have 'held it over his head' or anything, but inside myself it was always going to be there.

Exactly. Shouldn't there be a goal?

Initially, the goal is to get out of infidelity.

After that is achieved, then setting a goal on what you both want out of the M is extremely valuable. Written lists of needs and wants is what I recommend for people. Making a good list often only happens after stumbling around and making mistakes though.

Shouldn't we have a destination in mind?.. an endpoint?

It's not over until you are dead. Life is a journey. Even once you achieve a supportive, equal M, it still requires maintenance.

I realize, particularly after my above commentary with HCSDI, that there ARE some leftovers, some scars, some blind spots even? And it's not like we can sit down and predict exactly how long it will take to achieve the benchmarks we set for ourselves along the way, but isn't the eventual goal normalization of the relationship. Equal partners again?

Yes, but no matter how long its been, the A is a possible subject of reasonable discussion. There is no rugsweeping. It isn't a secret weapon for the BS to pull out whenever they want, but if it is pertinent, it shouldn't be ignored.

Buck

CT, do you think R is a massive compromise in which the WS gets the longer end of the stick?

No. Why would you R with someone who hasn't done the work and who you can never be your equal partner again?? If they don't do the work and if you can't find it in your heart to clean the slate.. D is the healthy choice. And, of course, that's a process.. a long one. It takes time to feel assured that your WS is making those changes and it takes time to recover from the pain and insult of the injury, but the eventual goal has to be there.

EllieKMAS

In my case, I wanted R so bad, but I had a WS that wanted R so long as it meant he never had to do any actual work or deal with his choice to cheat.

I think you saved yourself a whole lot of heartbreak by recognizing within that first year that your WS just wasn't going to come up to snuff. And some of them are like that. Sometimes we see BS's who are beating their head's up against the wall of WS recalcitrance and just can't seem to see that their WS isn't going to change.

This0is0Fine

...no matter how long its been, the A is a possible subject of reasonable discussion. There is no rugsweeping. It isn't a secret weapon for the BS to pull out whenever they want, but if it is pertinent, it shouldn't be ignored.

I haven't found it pertinent to bring up in several years. Most of my internal work has been about ME.

I wouldn't have wanted to stay in a marriage where I won every fight because "he's a cheater" and nothing could ever be authentic or real or normal again.

And yet stuffing down your feelings and declaring infidelity an out of bounds topic is inauthentic and fake.

I thank DevastatedDee for bringing up sexual assault because I was thinking of other traumas I've experienced in life too. You wouldn't simply stop talking about them after a certain amount of time.

I understand that your goal is to speak to people who perhaps are only reconciled in name, but there's no shortcut to a healthy relationship. In fact, a healthy relationship means that each partner is healthy enough, most of the time, to bear witness to their partner's struggles and provide comfort. Their ego isn't so fragile that they can't stand to know that they caused lasting harm.

It's natural to feel frustrated when compatriots here seem to be stuck in self-destructive cycles and to want to help them, but all we can do is share our collective wisdom. When we experience trauma it reveals how we cope, and most of us have a crappy coping mechanism or two. But it's just too simplistic to say, "Move on after X date" when the whole point is that a healthy WS would never expect you to move on. A healthy WS understands that your scars will remain but much joy and trust can exist in your marriage. In other words, two unhealthy choices don't a healthy one make.

It almost reads to me like we're accepting a certain amount of unhealthy behavior, even abuse, heaped upon the WS by the BS. Am I getting that right?

So if that's what people mean, then I would suggest that you can express outrage and pain and you can have healthy boundaries, but none of that is a "sentence" for or "punishing" your WS. Those are natural consequences that the WS caused. If you are being abusive in response to suffering a trauma, then again that is showing you how you cope. But let's not talk like it's a given that a BS will respond this way because I certainly didn't.

The affair was a symptom of my husband's self-centeredness and immaturity. So were his habits of spending a lot of time and money on himself instead of our family. So when, after DDay, he drastically altered those habits, that was not a punishment. That was a course correction. I was not miserly or gloating or punitive because my goal was a healthy me in a healthy marriage and family.

CT,

I'm not nearly as far out as you. The topic comes up less often. We had a long talk about it last Saturday. More open discussion than fight or conflict. I felt very good about it afterward and so did my wife.

I would simply never agree if my wife asks, "Can we stop talking about the A? I don't want to talk about it ever again."

Practically, it should come up less and less. I'm not targeting zero, and wouldn't agree to zero.

Which is sort of what the thread is about. If she said, "Can we aim for not talking about the A ever again starting in four years?" I would say no. There is no statute of limitations on talking about it.

If I were bringing it up to hurt her, that's one thing. I don't agree with that, and think it could become abusive. A lot of the times that I bring it up, I am doing the work on me, and I'm just letting her know what my internal process is. Because before, I would hide it from her, then eventually feel the need to bring up a raft of negative feelings she didn't even know I was processing.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:55 PM, July 28th (Wednesday)]