SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There will be times that the loss of that hand manifests in ways that will need help from my spouse - could be emotional triggers of reliving the moment the axe fell... could be I just can't wipe my arse bc my remaining hand is sprained. Could be a lot of things.

So, I guess I'm confused by what is meant by "climbing down off the cross".

But this goes back to catastrophizing and hyperbole though, doesn't it. The WS didn't take an ax to us or cut off any of our body parts. They lied, they fucked other people, they allowed their APs to be a greater priority to them than us, and maybe a whole host of other insults and transgressions. But we haven't been maimed. So at what point do we allow them to stop punishing themselves and at what point do we stop punishing them when they are truly remorseful and have done the work required to be an acceptable partner again. We aren't talking about WS who are incapable of true remorse or who will not make changes to their flawed character.

I get that there are some BS who, for myriad reasons, just can't leave bring themselves to leave. That's a tough choice to make and a hard way to live. But like you said, that's not R. What we're talking about here is WS who have EARNED their way back.

I also don't agree with the "it's not about me" or not "to" me stuff. We can rationalize bad behavior from now until doomsday. I can see a lot of ways in which my WH's cheating was NOT "about" me. That doesn't remove the myriad ways it WAS "about" me, or the ways in which anyone with half a brain would KNOW how deeply harmful it is... including my WH - who I'm confident was very much aware it would cause me a ton of pain, and very much aware it would likely lead to D, and was equally convinced I would NEVER find out (we keep those secrets because we KNOW the consequences, which includes the pain to another - hell, how many WS will wax on forever about how they lied to "protect" the BS? ). It always reminds me of the drunk driver who says they didn't think anyone would be hurt - another way to relieve their guilt, and doesn't provide much comfort to the grieving family.

It's about motives. I'm not going to say that the primary motive can never be the BS. Certainly, in the Revenge Affair, hurting the BS is the objective. But in the garden variety affair where the boundary-less WS gets too close to a coworker and catches feelings? or the hedonistic WS who sees an opportunity for MORE sex/attention and goes for it? Even the rebel WS who's busting out of his/her make-believe prison is reacting to the angst and resentment they've created in their own minds. Consider that my fWH had made me a target for all his middle-aged misery. I had become a caricature in his mind. But the reality of the situation is that even on DDay, I fed him before I confronted him because I knew he wouldn't be able to eat afterward. That caricature wasn't me. It was his invention.

I honestly don't understand (despite a lot of trying) the having faith in myself (or I trust myself), etc. Maybe that's just bc of my particular situation. I have faith in my ability to walk (TBH, duck gathering has taken more than I thought), but not to somehow glean when he's cheating.

It's not about catching him cheating. I mean, I would, and I know that because I have. He's just not that good of an actor. Like yours, he was stomping around and belligerent. But let's say he's much sneakier and gets away with it for a couple of months. He's still going to get caught. He can't hide stuff like that from me because my eyes are open now. I don't look the other way if I see a red flag because I'm NOT fragile anymore. If he cheats again and gets caught, it's sayonara. Buh-bye. He can hand over half of everything and get gone. And that's NOT going to break me. I'm here because I want to be here, because I'm enjoying my life, NOT because I need anything from him. I don't. He's not meat and potatoes anymore. He's gravy. I am meat and potatoes. I am enough for me. I don't fear the future and I don't fear my fWH. I can afford to be generous with him because I put ME first now. I don't need my old naive, stupid trust anymore because I am STRONGER than I've ever been in my life!

See, that's what's great about you, Dee. You're really in touch with yourself. You knew that you didn't want to go through all that stuff and you were strong enough not to feel pressured about it. You're an SI hero for that.

I think this is what people can miss sometimes. It's that no BS owes a second chance. If we choose it, we're choosing it of our own volition.

I love you too. I so enjoy your perspective because it's always so deep and well thought out. I know that you would be awesome to know in real life.

I second that. I credit SO much of my being able to move forward to you Dee. You too CT!!

You are a powerhouse, woman. You did it yourself.

Certainly didn't hurt having other badasses around to give me a smack upside the noggin when I needed it tho Dee

And I needed it to get my head on straight for sure!

But this goes back to catastrophizing and hyperbole though, doesn't it. The WS didn't take an ax to us or cut off any of our body parts. They lied, they fucked other people, they allowed their APs to be a greater priority to them than us, and maybe a whole host of other insults and transgressions. But we haven't been maimed.

Mmm, wow. This disregards most of the brain science. In fact the harm is very great. It is not a physical maiming. It is not cancer. It is not a terrorist attack. As far as the brain is concerned -- a physical organ -- it might as well be those things.

Really. That isn't hyperbole. That isn't catastrophisizing. The brain is a physical part of your body. Betrayal trauma runs deep and lasts a lifetime. It has lasting effects on the body.

Since the middle of my wife’s affair I've had elevated BP. It reset at a higher level and has never gone back. That is real physical damage and real harm. You can't wave a Vipassana wand and make that go away. That is magical thinking.

It's about motives.

Is it though? This is dangerously close to situational ethics.

People go to jail for negligent homicide all the time. They didn't *mean* to kill anyone. Yet someone died all the same.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And let's be honest: someone committing adultery doesn't have good intentions.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:13 AM, July 30th (Friday)]

I agree. Betrayal trauma lasts a lifetime. It’s the elephant in the room the rest of your marriage. What you do with it well that’s on you. Forgiveness is not for everyone. I truly believe you do not need to forgive. I think you need to accept. Which in my books is something entirely different. Acceptance gives me peace. Forgiveness makes me feel like I’m saying it’s ok. Well it isn’t and it never will be. I think you never feel the same towards your spouse after.There’s something that is different. Something you learn to accept if you reconcile. As for resentment. If your married long enough everybody’ has to have some. We all carry our baggage. How much and how heavy is up to each person. Betrayal has been around forever. Legends, myths , poems and songs. Try watching TV without finding some. It’s everywhere. It’s one of those adult situations that inevitably happens to each and everyone of us. When it does happen it leaves it’s mark on you. You change when you don’t want to. You make decisions you don’t want to make. It’s the shitty part of life.

so why am I up early - having coffee and starting to read SI @ 5 AM?

this:

I agree. Betrayal trauma lasts a lifetime. It’s the elephant in the room the rest of your marriage. What you do with it well that’s on you. Forgiveness is not for everyone. I truly believe you do not need to forgive. I think you need to accept. Which in my books is something entirely different. Acceptance gives me peace. Forgiveness makes me feel like I’m saying it’s ok. Well it isn’t and it never will be. I think you never feel the same towards your spouse after.There’s something that is different. Something you learn to accept if you reconcile. As for resentment. If your married long enough everybody’ has to have some. We all carry our baggage. How much and how heavy is up to each person. Betrayal has been around forever. Legends, myths , poems and songs. Try watching TV without finding some. It’s everywhere. It’s one of those adult situations that inevitably happens to each and everyone of us. When it does happen it leaves it’s mark on you. You change when you don’t want to. You make decisions you don’t want to make. It’s the shitty part of life.

I guess reading here, an analogy, is like looking for the Holy Grail.

jailedmind said it better than me

But we haven't been maimed

And I guess this is where we will just differ, because IMO (and from just about everything I've read about infidelity & trauma), Thumos is right:

This disregards most of the brain science. In fact the harm is very great. It is not a physical maiming. It is not cancer. It is not a terrorist attack. [However] As far as the brain is concerned -- a physical organ -- it might as well be those things.... That isn't hyperbole. That isn't catastrophisizing.... Betrayal trauma runs deep and lasts a lifetime. It has lasting effects on the body.

Every bit I've read about trauma (starting with Van der Kolk) would say that study after study after study shows that trauma (and I thought we all agreed that infidelity is a trauma to the BS) changes a human at a cellular level. Hanson talks about the need to "rewire" our brains after trauma. I have yet to read anything recent that says trauma (whether from infidelity or anything else) won't have a profound, long lasting, physical, impact upon our bodies.

In any event, I think any BS who is successfully R has to decide for themselves what that looks like. Maybe it's "acceptance", or maybe "forgiveness" as any individual defines it.

And as I think about it, I don't know that a BS in a "successful" R is the person who "releases" the WS from the cross (or the guilt, shame, etc). I think that's really up to the WS to forgive themself (cuz we cannot control what the other person thinks/feels/acts upon). And bc to me, if a tif about how the plates get loaded into the dishwasher devolves into "but you cheated" is a pretty good indicator that the R is not at the level of a "success". IOW, if the BS continues to keep the WS "on the cross" in a way that the A is front and center, I just don't see that as R (but that's my view - we all get our own ways of viewing what "success" is in R).

I can't think of anyone on SI who characterizes their R as "successful" does not continue to talk about the A if/when needed. Any more than having my hand cut off means there won't be times I'm triggered by it or need help getting through my activities of daily living. It's a scar. It's real. It may fade, but will never completely disappear. Both the BS and the WS will have to accept that and deal with it and continue to find joy in their shared lives.

Every bit I've read about trauma (starting with Van der Kolk) would say that study after study after study shows that trauma (and I thought we all agreed that infidelity is a trauma to the BS) changes a human at a cellular level. Hanson talks about the need to "rewire" our brains after trauma. I have yet to read anything recent that says trauma (whether from infidelity or anything else) won't have a profound, long lasting, physical, impact upon our bodies.

I think it's like the pain of childbirth or something where it's easy to forget how debilitating it actually was. It felt very much like brain damage to me. It felt like my brain was glitching, like it had a virus. I think it literally does cause brain damage. All the neurons were in disarray and it was total panic because it was like I no longer knew where what or when I was or what my life was. Reality itself felt thin. Hunger ceased to exist. Sleep no longer came naturally. I had to force myself to do things that kept me alive like eat and drink. Needed sleeping meds to sleep. This breaks our brains and that does have long-term effects.

Of course being the victim of intimate betrayal is hard on the brain. It's hard on the body too. Anyone who has read The Body Keeps Score would know that these things are all interconnected. But it's not the same as getting a chunk of your brain lopped off, or losing a hand, or being murdered. We CAN recover from being cheated on and go on to live normal lives with all our limbs intact.

I'm thinking that sometimes people can become really invested in their own misery. Like they become accustomed to it, or find it to be a defining characteristic or something. I'm here telling you that it is possible to feel BETTER, that it is possible to get back to a mostly normal relationship with your fWS, That we don't have to punish a truly remorseful WS, that we don't have to hold a grudge. And yes, of course, we will always remember what happened. We're always going to have some scars from the battle. It's not a small thing to recover from.

JailedMind

Acceptance gives me peace. Forgiveness makes me feel like I’m saying it’s ok. Well it isn’t and it never will be.

Exactly. What happened was NOT okay. I agree. We still have to accept that it actually happened and then make our choices from there. R is NOT for everyone. I also felt like "forgiveness" stuck in my craw, hence my accounting trick of "writing off" the debt.

gmc94

IOW, if the BS continues to keep the WS "on the cross" in a way that the A is front and center, I just don't see that as R (but that's my view - we all get our own ways of viewing what "success" is in R).

That's kind of the purpose of the thread really, as well as when there's a grudge that the WS doesn't realize is happening.

I can't think of anyone on SI who characterizes their R as "successful" does not continue to talk about the A if/when needed.

People should talk about it when needed. No question about it. But let's not act like we're children here and we don't understand that we're asking our WS to go back and re-live their part in our trauma. Like I said, I'm not giving up a single thing I have today in order to go back and relive yesterday's trauma. Triggers are unpleasant. Who would WANT to keep indulging them when you can actually get control of that aspect of your recovery. We have primary control of all the space between our ears. It's a matter of being proactive in healing, getting control, and shrinking those buggers down to size. I don't NEED my fWH to hold my hand, apologize, and feel bad, because some random memory popped into my head at this point. That memory does NOT control me. And of course, it's NOT wrong to need the remorseful WS to be there in the beginning when we need lots of comforting and lots of reassurance. I can even understand need a little support if you've become the victim of a mis-stored memory which brings the whole trauma back in real time. We see folks like that from time to time. But overall, I'm six and a half years out and I don't need my hand held anymore.

DevastatedDee

I think it's like the pain of childbirth or something where it's easy to forget how debilitating it actually was. It felt very much like brain damage to me. It felt like my brain was glitching, like it had a virus. I think it literally does cause brain damage. All the neurons were in disarray and it was total panic because it was like I no longer knew where what or when I was or what my life was. Reality itself felt thin. Hunger ceased to exist. Sleep no longer came naturally. I had to force myself to do things that kept me alive like eat and drink. Needed sleeping meds to sleep. This breaks our brains and that does have long-term effects.

Agreed. But if there are long-term effects, I can't say that I'm feeling them. I'm aware of certain scars, changes in my attitude and expectations with people, but nothing that impairs brain function.

Anyone else hating the new format? The print is all over the place, some too big, some too little. Ugh.

I hate the new format, LOL. The flowers on the garden option are pretty and all, but goodness, ha ha ha. Maybe we'll adapt to it and not notice it soon. I might like it better as I get used to it.

Agreed. But if there are long-term effects, I can't say that I'm feeling them. I'm aware of certain scars, changes in my attitude and expectations with people, but nothing that impairs brain function.

I function perfectly well now too. Some things are ruined for me forever because they just don't feel positive even though I don't have strong triggers at this point. I'm a different person in a lot of ways, though. Some are positive, some are negative. The difference between meeting me in 2016 and meeting me again now would probably be quite noticable. Whether you'd like this version better or the previous version better, the fact that there are two versions in a short span of time says a lot.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 7:14 PM, Friday, July 30th]

1000% with anyone hating the new format. I was a big fan of Simplicity (and loved that the name actually reflected the interface). this is NOT anything like "simple" IMHO.

CT - I really respect you and your willingness to challenge our thinking.

And

I gotta say that I feel kind of rubbed the wrong way when the response to the impacts of trauma seem to sound along the lines of "that's a you problem" (or "I'm thinking that sometimes people can become really invested in their own misery" ). I am A TON better than I was 3 years ago. I'm basically living my own, separate life, despite not being D (while still working on the damn ducks). I find and allow myself to FEEL joy in my life. I don't feel "invested" in my misery - and I do know that sweeping shit under the rug doesn't really heal. I've worked damn fucking hard, with a wholly UNremorseful spouse who has yet to find basic honesty in his life or WRT his As, let alone any of the other growth necessary from a WS in order to even consider R. I know and have experienced healing from this fucked up shit ton of trauma. I also have compassion for the ways in which I am likely permanently scarred by it and to even find ways to love the scars, because from them have borne more than the "healing" but also new ways of approaching life, my emotions, etc. IOW, being cognizant of the trauma (and misery) is not the same as being "invested" in it. I guess I could echo DevDee's last post.

However, I do still have what I consider to be long term issues. I still can't read for pleasure (and reading for work remains a challenge - doable, but a challenge, after 50+ years of being an AVID reader of all things). I still have triggers, sometimes HUGE ones that literally stop me dead in my tracks.. sometimes they are minor... and sometimes the impact of the trigger can last for weeks (I'm actually just coming off one of those "rides" ). I try not to dwell on them. I try to ask for help when I need it. I'm working with my IC (who doesn't know squat about infidelity, but has a VERY long resume WRT trauma and trauma healing). I think folks I've met since dday would be shocked to hear what I've dealt with over the past 3+ years (from dday to WH's suicide attempt to losing my job to my DD's addiction & suicide attempt to my mother's recent stroke/health issues, most of which has transpired since Covid hit). It is what it is, and I learn new ways to manage/cope with life's stresses. To not have anger be my "go to". To have compassion for others' struggles (esp my kids). That list- of how working through the trauma has positive ramifications today - is also long.

it is possible to feel BETTER, that it is possible to get back to a mostly normal relationship with your fWS, That we don't have to punish a truly remorseful WS, that we don't have to hold a grudge.

I completely agree. I DO feel better, I won't have a healthy relationship with my WS, but I have hope there will be another relationship in my future (and thanks to SI, as well as silly TV like Frankie & Grace, to help me see that hope). But that does not mean I don't still have some, as DevDee would say, "brain damage" from the trauma of it all. I do. And it feels - to me - very much like I've lost a limb (at a minimum, I have lost the metaphorical "limb" of my husband, my marriage, my intact and what I thought was a "happy" family).

I am SUPER happy that your experience has been different. I think it's absolutely wonderful (and better yet, provides hope to those in the early throws of the shitshow that is infidelity - including myself). And, your experience does not mean that those of us who still have long term damage from the trauma of our WS's choosing to have an A (or many As) are choosing to be forever tethered to our own misery.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 3:04 PM, July 30th, 2021 (Friday)]

I gotta say that I feel kind of rubbed the wrong way when the response to the impacts of trauma seem to sound along the lines of "that's a you problem" (or "I'm thinking that sometimes people can become really invested in their own misery" )

I'm so sorry if I made you feel like I don't think you deserve compassion for all you've been through. That would NEVER be my intent. You've been through a lot. And of course infidelity is traumatic.

Here's the thing though, taking a proactive approach to dealing with that trauma can help people get unstuck. I know that, because it helped me get unstuck. So, how do I let other people know that there are all these really great ways to challenge your thinking and to make progress and that you can get yourself unstuck and have a successful reconciliation with a truly remorseful spouse so long as they have corrected their deficits?? The fact of the matter is that we really do have a great deal of control over the situation. How can you say "proactive" without inferring that "this is a you problem"?

I appreciate your thoughts on being proactive about healing. I think that's extremely important and it's great that you're here with an alternative to "this sucks and we're screwed for life". Because you're right, we are not screwed for life.

CT,

A lot of the advice you give in this thread following "years of hard work and repair" is sometimes hard to contextualize because it sounds just fractionally different from rugsweeping style advice of, "The past is in the past, you can't change it now, focus on the present. Just let it go. You get to choose whether you trust them now or not." Which is why I, and others here are saying, well, just hold on a second, we shouldn't have to hide our pain, anxiety, or other negative feelings that are affair related, ever.

As I said, it builds emotional intimacy and shows vulnerability. It's not done to punish the WS.

Full disclosure, I did not read all the replies here (just the first few pages) so please forgive me if I missed a change.

From the original post I read it as being this, for true reconciliation, you need to stop punishing your spouse. (On that point I completely agree) In order to do that, after a certain amount of time, you must no longer bring up the affair, because if you do you are preventing your spouse from living a normal life, punishing them and holding a grudge.

I am coming up on five years past DDay. My husband leapt into the work to earn a second chance pretty much immediately. He's a rebuilder in every sense of the word and although I was pretty skeptical for a few years, he has shown nothing but consistent and sustained changes. We both have worked diligently on our own healing through therapy (I did EMDR, somatic experiencing as well as regular talk therapy). We were very lucky and stumbled upon a trauma informed marriage counselor who was experienced in working with couples impacted by infidelity (who DID NOT like Esther Perel) and who helped us both immensely in righting the ship.

Today we have a very equitable AND loving marriage. We contribute pretty darned equally to the finances, child rearing, running of the household, chores, etc. We are both still with therapists who we check in with semi-regularly to ensure we are still in a good position but it doesn't take the time it once did. We both meditate and journal and water our own internal gardens (exercise, hobbies like reading and yoga). We enjoy hanging out together. We have a rewarding love life. We support each other in hard times and we celebrate each others wins. I feel 100% certain and happy when I say that at this point, we are partners in every sense of the word. I love him and I trust that he loves me. We show love every day and we consider it a verb rather than just a feeling. We have lots of romance and our kids often tease us about all the hugging and kisses.

Not long ago, I had the _same_ thought as you OP. I thought - okay, this man is amazing. He has proven he has changed. He has shown good boundaries in so many ways, he has put our marriage and our family above everything else on a daily basis for years now. It's time to put this away.

I don't have triggers often and most of the ones I do are tiny blips that don't last more than a minute. My mindfulness training lets me take note of them but I can easily move on.

But as trauma impacts the brain and body in unexpected ways, sometimes a trigger will come out of left field and knock me on my butt a bit harder.

This happened after I had made the decision to keep triggers to myself, naturally I pulled out my trusty dealing-with-hard-stuff-in-a-healthy-way toolkit and felt my feelings, journaled, did some exercises, etc.

But here's the thing about alllll that work my husband and I had done on ourselves and our marriage to regain emotional intimacy and vulnerability...it means that I have an empathetic man who notices when I don't feel right on my hands. Oops!

So of course, he could tell I was upset and asked me about it and I told him "Oh I'm just a little upset its nothing. I will be fine." Which made my husband feel a little bit like I was hiding my feelings (because I was) and that I was being distant (yep - trying not to "bother him" by bringing up my feelings, so emotional distance) and he sensed that there was something off with us.

And later when he managed to get me to talk, he told me that he doesn't feel punished when I bring up the affair because he feels super lucky that he gets to be the person who is still here comforting me . He knows I can deal with it on my own, but that I should not have to because he wants to know what is going on in my heart so he can be there for me when I feel down. That I can trust him to catch me when I stumble.

Because that is all it is - a stumble. Having a trigger and feeling the emotions that arise from it isn't "wallowing in the past". It's just an emotion, that needs to be felt and released.

Its not a grudge because my goal in sharing my feelings is for him to know what is happening inside me, to see me fully.

"I wouldn't have wanted to stay in a marriage where I won every fight because "he's a cheater" and nothing could ever be authentic or real or normal again." You can't hide your feelings AND be authentic. That isn't being real.

Sadly that is being normal but as everyone on SI knows - true emotional availability and vulnerability is unfortunately rare in that is.

I don't bring up the affair every day nor every week and honestly, it doesn't even come up for months at a time at this point. But I know that I can bring it up whenever it DOES impact me for the rest of our lives together and that I will be heard and comforted and kissed and then we will move on to other things (like going swimming or watching a movie or making dinner together). Just like anything that is bothering my spouse at the time can be brought to me. That's the marriage we both want. One where we can talk about practically anything and support one another.

I now really believe that sometimes when we push down or hide our feelings or just deal with it ourselves, we rob our spouses of the chance to show exactly how great they are at this partnership thing. Leaning on your loved one emotionally strengthens bonds.

(YMMV obviously)

Thanks strugglebus, that exactly where I feel my R is headed.

I think that's why we're talking about timing, This0is0Fine. Once the work is really done, then yeah.. it's time to "get over it". Sure, there will be scars. Sure, there will be new norms. And believe me, I understand the sting of those platitudes in the early days and even in the later days. But, when the work is done and the WS has EARNED their way back into equality, and the BS has decided that they do want to continue the marriage, then yes... those platitudes are going to apply.