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stubbornft Thank you very much for your post. I am well aware this is probably frustrating as hell to watch from the sidelines. I know.

I know I am not too old. I was thinking the other day about my animals and the fact I have my older dogs who I might have another 3 years if I'm lucky (Giant breed dogs)and my new puppy who is only 8 months old. I for some reason was contemplating the puppy and having her (cross EVERY extremity) another 13 or 14 years. And realized I would be 66 then. That for some reason didn't seem old. Made me pause.

I work ALL the time. Two, three, four jobs, sometimes 36 or 40 hours straight. I am good at what I do. I raised two successful kids. created a pretty spectacular home, not fancy but lovely enough people actually stop their cars to see my garden. I nursed my mom through cancer 14 years ago and that loss is still as fresh as the day she died. Dealt with and basically resolved awful financial choices. Cared for, nursed, and ultimately lost my dad to cancer this year. And the cheating.

The reason I have not made my move is I am fucking exhausted emotionally, physically, and mentally. I just have nothing left. No energy to spare to pull the pin on this relationship, for real. I think I'm depressed too. My dad ended up having a medically assisted end of life and the last week in hospice with him (I never left his side) took every remaining scrap of reserves I had left. The last night was something out of a nightmare and sometimes I feel like I'm still trapped in that room holding his hand and stroking his forehead while the doctor did what seemed like unending injections. I. Have. Nothing. Left.

I KNOW other people have had it worse and even worse situations re: cheating (NO I am not ranking pain, let's not rehash that!) and they move on successfully. I REFUSE to lose all I have worked for, fought for, sacrificed for because he is a dumb ass. So, it isn't just leaving him, it is making sure I can pay him out half the equity in the house, half the value of the one vehicle we bought outright, and misc expenses. We would have to split the one piece of debt we have left. So $22,000. I don't have it yet. When I do, we will have a discussion. Don't lose patience with me please.

That is good Northern that you are working towards buying him out. You have built a great life and don't deserve to lose it. I understand that. Your garden sounds dreamy :)

I am so sorry for the losses of your parents. And all the trauma you have experienced. It is a lot.

I don't mean my posts to sound like you are frustrating, I just think you come through as such a good and loving person and I find your husband to be a cruel person. I hope you will get out. I am glad you see you have a lot of life ahead of you. You have put so much work into your kids and your family and your home. At a point we get to ENJOY our lives. I want you to be happy and peaceful, we all deserve that.

I don't know where you are, but every day you stay with him, you end up further behind on paying out his half of the house assuming you are going to do something like a cash out refi in just your name. The real estate market is ridiculous.

7 months ago, I could have afforded to buy my wife out, now I can't. We'd have to sell.

This0is0Fine Our mortgage was up last week. We JUST refinanced, rolling everything but one credit line into the mortgage. So I know the value of my house since last week. lol AND this would be an incredible deal for him generally because I then am taking on all the debt too, because it is now in the mortgage.

I'm not thinking of waiting years. Our market is hot here too, and if the prices start to fall it only means I pay him less.

NorthernMSB My comment(s) on this thread was coming from a place of not knowing your full situation. Please forgive me. It sounds as though your WS isn't really reconciliation material.

It sounds like you are getting your ducks in a row. That is great and I encourage you to continue to do so. I also would encourage you to try IC. Tell your IC what your goal is. They will help you get the strength to get to your goal and keep you on track when you need it.

Also, maybe see your MD to get some meds for your depression.

Wishing you all the best, NorthernMSB, you deserve it.

SisterMilkshake No worries. The "escape plan" is a plan B. I actually would prefer to stay married but it appears he is not willing to do the work to make that possible.

Don't do meds either, not even Tylenol if I can help it. Never. My pets and garden and work ground me and keep me getting up in the morning. Plus, when my husband was caught cheating and we went to see our doctor for him...apparently the poor soul might have been depressed and having a midlife crisis (for 20 years). The doctor thought this was the reason for "making poor choices." Yuck

[This message edited by NorthernMSB at 11:30 AM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

I don't know what you mean when you say

We have actually been doing ok recently

because he has always been horrible and never been remorseful (based on your posts and his actions).

had a rather in-depth, frank talk about changes we both have to make and if we can't, then we would just call it quits. Been quite peaceful.

Changes you BOTH have to make? And shouldn't the narcissistic cheater go first? But he never has. Ever.

Please understand that lowering your standards by settling for no obvious cheating, no direct disrespect, and by agreeing to his narcissistic demands that YOU are also part of the problem and need to change is NOT reconciliation. Lowering your standards to stay in the R has other names, but 'reconciled' is not one of them.

Cheaters and abusers take breaks. I mean, being an [woops! No name calling] is exhausting, so sometimes you give it a rest and just live life without starting problems every which way. But that is not change; that's just a break in @$$holery. Only meaningful and intentional actions toward healing and change show reconciliation efforts. And even then, some actions are meaningless crumbs. The actions should be big and meaningul. He has done none of that. Ever.

if we can't, then we would just call it quits

That's now then, right? He has shown you that he can't.

There is no working on him. At all. You need to stop. No discussions. No explaining. (Discussing and explaining has only one purpose--the BS trying to help the WS to get it. No. Stop. That is BS work, not WS work. Stop the efforts to fix him.) You need to work on you. You are the one that needs to change and can change because you control you. Detach from him and work on yourself. You've got to stop chasing his love and approval. It is terrible for your psyche.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:39 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

Don't do meds either, not even Tylenol if I can help it. Never

Good, a perfect place to work on yourself! Time to change, right? Change begins with you. This silly pride on avoiding meds is hurting you, not helping you. Take pride over working on yourself and changing, not being stubborn in your over generalized convictions! You will be glad you changed!!!

Be the change you seek in others.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:35 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

Owningitnow

I don't know what you mean when you say

We have actually been doing ok recently

because he has always been horrible and never been remorseful (based on your posts and his actions).

We've been ok. No overt hostility, no sniping, no stupid arguments over nothing. Being nice to each other. And no, he isn't remorseful, never said he is.

had a rather in-depth, frank talk about changes we both have to make and if we can't, then we would just call it quits. Been quite peaceful.

Changes you BOTH have to make? And shouldn't the narcissistic cheater go first? But he never has. Ever.

Yes, changes we both have to make. I am certainly not a great partner on many levels, 100 percent. Is that a reason he should have cheated? no, but it would be very dumb not to see areas I need to improve. He's not a narcissist, just a self entitled asshole.

Please understand that lowering your standards by settling for no obvious cheating, no direct disrespect, and by agreeing to his narcissistic demands that YOU are also part of the problem and need to change is NOT reconciliation. Lowering your standards to stay in the R has other names, but 'reconciled' is not one of them.

Not lowering my standards. Not agreeing to his demands, I just mind my own business and do my own thing. I am part of the problems beyond cheating we have in our marriage and of course change is required for anyone to get through this shit. Just because someone cheated on you doesn't mean you get a pass on your own bullshit.

Cheaters and abusers take breaks. I mean, being an [woops! No name calling] is exhausting, so sometimes you give it a rest and just live life without starting problems every which way. But that is not change; that's just a break in @$$holery. Only meaningful and intentional actions toward healing and change show reconciliation efforts. And even then, some actions are meaningless crumbs. The actions should be big and meaningul. He has done none of that. Ever.

He's not taking a break. He isn't cheating anymore. There isn't going to be any huge changes in his behaviour or actions. I knew what kind of personality he had when I married him, there wasn't going to be deep meaningful talks, introspection, or romantic gestures in my future. Still isn't. Do you think someone with no capacity to look at themselves or patience for that type of process will suddenly become sensitive? No, never expected him to.

if we can't, then we would just call it quits

That's now then, right? He has shown you that he can't.

No, his AP texted him. He didn't ask for it or even know she did it. His reaction to me being upset was less than optimal but I don't see where this is a dealbreaker.

There is no working on him. At all. You need to stop. No discussions. No explaining. (Discussing and explaining has only one purpose--the BS trying to help the WS to get it. No. Stop. That is BS work, not WS work. Stop the efforts to fix him.) You need to work on you. You are the one that needs to change and can change because you control you. Detach from him and work on yourself. You've got to stop chasing his love and approval. It is terrible for your psyche.

I'm not working on him. That is certainly not my responsibility. I'm not discussing or explaining anything either or trying to get him to "get it." He doesn't. Never will. I'm not trying to fix him. I'm not chasing his love and approval. I don't need his approval, I'm leaps above him in every category. Why do I need his approval??

Don't do meds either, not even Tylenol if I can help it. Never

Good, a perfect place to work on yourself! Time to change, right? Change begins with you. This silly pride on avoiding meds is hurting you, not helping you. Take pride over working on yourself and changing, not being stubborn in your over generalized convictions! You will be glad you changed!!!

Be the change you seek in others.

It's not pride to avoid meds. I don't need them, no thanks. I don't drink or do recreational drugs including pot (never in my life) either, is that silly pride or an over generalized conviction? Seriously?? I have changed and change daily as do most people. I am NOT seeking change in others. Never said I was.

This was a shitty triggering incident that I reacted to and I hope it doesn't happen again. Thank you for everyone who helped me through it and gave me some sensible advice and support.

Since you are posting in the Reconciliation forum I am assuming both you and WH want to reconcile.

I haven't been around much so I haven't seen your posts about your whole situation. I am sure I have read some of them as you have been here awhile. So, take this with a grain of salt and assuming you are/want to reconcile your marriage.

As you may notice my d-day was 2010. It has been 11 years since d-day. We are happily reconciled. However, it certainly wasn't linear. It was a freaking roller coaster. Especially when an unremorseful AP keeps popping in and out of your lives to keep you unsettled. If a NC letter hasn't been written it needs to be. If it has, as Chaos commented, you need a Cease and Desist Letter.

It takes a long time to undo lifelong habits/behaviours. I couldn't expect FWH to change overnight. It was a process. Sometimes torturous and ridiculous. I had made a line in the sand about lying. In short, MisterSister lied about throwing fucking fish guts away. I came to SI a wreck because I had to divorce him because he lied. ABOUT. FISH. GUTS. Thank goodness the dear members here talked me down. This was about 2 years post d-day.

Another time, FWH was invited to a private memorial for the father of one of his H.S. BF's. I was not really invited and even if I had been I wouldn't have gone. The sister (daughter of deceased father) of H.S. BF was a wanna be OW to FWH. Anyway, I told FWH I didn't want him to go. He got very angry and upset. Went outside mowed the lawn and came back in. He apologized and wanted to talk. He said he knows he was angry when I expressed I didn't want him to go. I used to be the cool wife where he could go anywhere. But, than he realized he was actually angry at himself. He was angry that he caused this situation that I was uncomfortable with him going somewhere an OW would be and he couldn't be there to support his friend (who he really doesn't have a relationship with for 30 years now). He took his initial anger out on me. Which has almost always been his go to response. Angry and defensive. But, he realized it and talked to me about it. Progress. Slow but sure. Three steps forward and one back.

That is how our reconciliation worked. I think that is the way a lot of reconciliations work. It is a process with lots of stumbles.

Well...here's the thing, though. It might really take a decade + for a %^*& to become a human who does not react like an abusive sociopath to reasonable expectations from the BS. It really might take that long and with lots of stumbles. Those stumbles seem to generally be acts of abuse against a BS. There has to be something left of the BS by the time the WS has reached emotional adulthood. What is R if you wind up with a reformed FWS and a BS who is a mere shadow of who he or she once was because the BS took the hits of this transition to R right in the face all those years? R and D aren't necessarily goals. Getting out of infidelity and healing are goals.

NorthernMSB, I hope you take care of you as hard as you can because this kind of living situation just sucks the absolute life out of a person.

His reaction to me being upset was less than optimal but I don't see where this is a dealbreaker

We had a deal that if she texted or contacted him in any way he would show me and not answer at all or we would handle it together. Well, he blew the fuck up. Told me I wasn’t going to control him. I said so if I ask you not to answer her, you will do it anyway because I can’t control you? He said yes. And that if he had the item she gave him 33 YEARS ago, he would have mailed it back to her.

He literally said he would break your deal, and then maybe he did or maybe he didn't, but he didn't tell you either way.

I'm not saying that you should blow up your life, but I am saying that he'd be relegated to roommate status after that shit.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 1:49 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

I too am extremely confused by the above statements. Not ideal might be huffing, puffing, and complaining while he sticks to the agreement. He said very clearly that he was going to break the agreement AND resume contact with her later. He'd be a real idiot to respond to her text where he knows you will be looking for it but that doesn't mean he didn't email her or send a message to one of her social media accounts.

nekonamida He clearly did not contact her initially and won't be after the fact either. He was just posturing. He is not motivated enough to do so, just took offence at the fact I was telling him what to do.

He doesn't have any other ways to contact her and she did contact him on his one social media account. He's not going to message her back. That I know.

It just pissed me off that she messaged him.

And initially he was perfectly fine to just delete it and not answer at all. When I pushed talking about it is when shit went south. No dealbreaker, just an escalation due to the fact I was pissed.

It really might take that long and with lots of stumbles. Those stumbles seem to generally be acts of abuse against a BS. There has to be something left of the BS by the time the WS has reached emotional adulthood. What is R if you wind up with a reformed FWS and a BS who is a mere shadow of who he or she once was because the BS took the hits of this transition to R right in the face all those years? R and D aren't necessarily goals. Getting out of infidelity and healing are goals.

YES!!! My xWS might someday get it together and be able to stop abusing me but I couldn't take the abuse any longer. And I just feel so much what Dee said here that I bolded. I would be a shell of myself by the time he was done with me. 6 months of dealing with it has caused me much harm.

(OK I guess it didn't bold but it was this part "What is R if you wind up with a reformed FWS and a BS who is a mere shadow of who he or she once was because the BS took the hits of this transition to R right in the face all those years?")

Northern - I see you are saying he isn't responding to her. But his response to you sucked. I think you should keep getting your ducks in a row. If he has a miraculous transformation then you will just have some fun money. But plan for the worst.

[This message edited by stubbornft at 2:38 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

It makes me so sad to watch a BS make so many excuses for a really horrible partner. Because the making excuses means the BS is keeping themselves in this hell. The WS is just being who they are, but the BS will not save themselves.

His reaction was/is never, ever, not in this lifetime, not in any other lifetime acceptable.

Acceptable = he's still my husband.

Absolutely not.

No. Never. Nobody treats me that way or talks to me that way, especially with what he has put me through.

Your WH probably just gave her a different method for contact in the future. This will never end. This is a long term A and both want it to continue. So it will, at whatever level.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:38 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

It just pissed me off that she messaged him.

I know. That's the sad part. His abuse is fine with you; your anger is just at her. Even though he is a terrible person with no respect for you. I guess you don't want to see it because you'd rather stay in this abusive cycle with him. We are all allowed to choose our own paths. He will simply hide it better to avoid dealing with you. After all, the door is open again.

Eta: in my view, the way he talked to you when you brought up her email was as if he hit you. Same thing. He attacked you, but he did it with abusive words. The problem is you saying, "He only hit me because he didn't like me telling him what to do. I am really mad at her emailing him."

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:46 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

OwningItNow You are making assumptions. I am not making a single excuse for him. He is an awful husband, a cheater, and I don't love him anymore. No excuses for his behaviour OR my own.

Some of us here aren't in a position to make all the recommended moves to get out of infidelity in the time everyone THINKS we should. I am not ready and that should be as respected as someone who chucks the cheater's shit on the front lawn and slaps them with divers papers as they are booted out the door.

It is not acceptable how he reacted but it has ended. He is 100 percent NOT cheating anymore. He doesn't have any other method of communication. Literally. You do not know him. He is a fabulously hard worker at work but quite possibly the laziest least motivated person with respect to personal. It is too much work to go out of his way to cheat. He got away with it before because honestly, I wasn't paying the slightest bit of attention to him at all. Like none. Working, doing my own thing, barely even talking to him. So I didn't notice.

He's not cheating anymore. And yes, his reaction was immature and unacceptable to yesterday's incident.

I am pissed off at HIM for putting me in the position where a Facebook message from a trashy woman elevates my heart rate.

And speaking as someone who has been hit; it is very very different and there is no comparison to that and my husband telling me not to control him.

[This message edited by NorthernMSB at 2:51 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

I mean, just recently you wrote an entire thread about him refusing to have sex with you or show affection for years. Everyone told you, "Unacceptable. This is abuse." He gives you a grandmotherly peck or takes a blow job, but that's it.

Narcissistic abuse and rejection. Standard hurtful abuse. Please, please, please leave this horrid person. He's not a husband.

It's not just this.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:50 PM, August 4th (Wednesday)]

You said she tried to call him on his drive home? It seems that would have worked except for the unexpected carpooling.

I am so confused as to why you believe you can lock him down and that's that. None of us can do that. None.

Detach.

Detach.

Detach.

Ihs

Separate bedrooms

No sexual favors

No meals for him (you cook ALL his meals, no. Stop)

No laundry for him

Just do for you and no one else. It will be good for you.

I didn't say she tried to call him?? The Facebook message would have come on his drive home due to the timing, so I wouldn't have seen it. They haven't had any contact since March 22, 2019 when he sent a No contact letter.

And yes, It also pisses me off we don't have sex. I want to have sex, as do most people.

I'm going to be here for a while so why not enjoy a few benefits?