SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Actually, I think I did that rather voluminously in this thread. Just go back and read.

I think I have to disagree, Thumos.

You are quite articulate and verbose. You clearly do a lot of research. You often speak of theories and studies. I have never heard anyone analyze quite like you. You are very matter of fact. Based on your research you make frequent assumptions.

I think what I keep waiting to see is the raw emotion that goes with what you are going through. Maybe that happens off the screen. I hope so, actually. I truly believe (and I’ll admit I only have experience, not research to back this) that the only way to heal is to feel.

If you are researching trauma, you must feel like you have been traumatized. I wonder if exploring that might serve you better without research or fancy words. Like at gut level.

I know it’s incredibly unfair, but really seeing and feeling my BH’s pain is in part how I was able to become genuinely remorseful. I didn’t believe that he loved me in the first place. If I was separated from him until we were in better places, I never would have been able to get to a place to understand the damage I did.

Do you share your feelings with your WW? Like really share the crippling pain that she has caused? What does that look like?

I am not denying that wayward spouses have been abusive. I am also not denying that trauma bonds exist with infidelity. What I am trying to figure out is why you are interested in them. What made you begin to research it. What were you feeling that lead to the thought? I feel like that would be more relevant to your healing than whether or not a therapeutic separation is the best way to go.

I’m not trying to pick on you Thumos. I want to understand you.

WOES - your point is the exact reason why I attempted to return Thumos to relating his post to his personal situation. I too haven’t seen that. I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

In the end, doesn’t much of this depend on the BS’ personality, whether it’s the existence and/or level of a trauma bond, how the BS deals with the WW before and after the A in general, etc?

We can only see a small portion, if any, of a WS snd BS personality in this medium. It’s limiting in this regard, when trying to understand snd provide advice.

It is what it is. What would probably help, as a general statement, is for people to try to provide as much insight as possible into their personality’s. Easier said than done I suppose.

As you said, Thumos is highly analytical and theoretical. Can we assume that this is part of his personality? If so, wouldn’t it be helpful to see Thumos relate how he sees his personality as it relates to: a trauma bond; his interaction with his WW prior to and after the A; and how he intends to put the theoretical into practice to resolve the limbo he finds himself in?

** Posting as a member **

More 2 x 4s, Thumos. Do with them what you will.

SI is a site that aims to help people solve their own problems. It's not a debating society. I know a lot of my posts are argumentative. My goal is not to win arguments, though. My goal is to shine light where I think light is useful.

Is the purpose of this thread to push the idea that because of the trauma bond it should be recommended that all couples have a trial separation post DDay?

I don't think I've pushed that idea....

I disagree. I asked if you thought that and you gave a definite 'yes' in response.

The CYA paragraph that followed was just that ... CYA.

That's JMO, but my perceptions tend to be pretty accurate.

I did suggest that betrayal trauma and trauma bonds in infidelity naturally connect to an abuse framework for viewing infidelity and the natural consequences of it.

But one natural consequence is for the victim of abuse to get to asking, 'How do I get out of this?

You keep getting yourself deeper and deeper into being a victim of abuse. What are you doing to get yourself out of being abused?

Perhaps you may want to discuss how a trauma bond relates to your own situation specifically and how that has affected you, but may not be comfortable with getting that vulnerable.

Actually, I think I did that rather voluminously in this thread. Just go back and read.

WOEz nailed it. Your posts and, probably, your research distance you from your feelings.

You want to discuss how trauma bonding affects people? Then talk about you.

How has it affected you?

What do you feel about your trauma-bonding, if you believe that's what you have done.

What do you think you should be doing about it?

What are you actually doing about it?

*****

You want something intellectual about feelings? You want something really good on 'moral' emotions? Read Sylvan Tomkins.

Here's another question to ask yourself. Have you not D'ed because that allows you 1) to give yourself positive strokes for deciding to D while 2) taking pressure off yourself to actually do something to get yourself out of infidelity?

I don't know the answer to that question, though I lean one way - but you know you better than I do.

Your posts read, IMO, like invitations to get and stay stuck. That's feedback, not criticism.

I think staying stuck is one of the worst things a BS can do for themself.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:25 PM, Saturday, September 25th]

And I disagree with the last few posters.

I think my process is similar to thumos' and I get a lot out of his posts. This one was no different. I found it very helpful. The counterpoints have been helpful to a degree. But some posters here haven't added anything imo than subtly and not so subtly attacking thumbs for not feeling/thinking as they do.

In my case, my feelings do not lead my thinking. My thinking leads my feeling. Analysis and theoretical exploration helps me in many ways.

I don't understand why that seems to annoy others but my experience is that my way of understanding the world around me is not standard in some way. I've had many long, drawn out convos like this thread with friends and colleagues. And while I am energized by it, many people seem frustrated that my process is different.

I think this may be a case of taking what helps and leaving the rest,

And contrary to what was just said, I do think some posters are trying to win the argument.

If im right that my ways are similar to thumos', the goal of an exercise like this post isn't to win or lose. The exercise is to talk out ideas and personally grow.

What thumos and a few others have posted helped me grow. Some of the posts didn't but I still appreciate the process.

What I’m also driving at, with a couple of posts ago and my last, was the import of being direct in conversation, stating needs, wants, and requirements for R. If not, then the potential results can be expected to be x,y, z. This conversation might need to be held multiple times for the WS to understand.

Thumos stated that he’s done this multiple times and there will be no more conversation about it. However, has Thumos’ conversations with his WW been as analytical snd theoretical as we see here? If yes, is it possible that his WW doesn’t really get what’s at stake. Does it sound too theoretical to her?

Thumos may believe otherwise but this is my gut. My recommendation would be to have another conversation. "My requirement to R is that I receive the complete truth verified by a poly. If not, I will make a final decision about what I want to do and you’ll find out what that is at that time. This is the final time I will make this offer."

If trauma bonds snd other theories get thrown into this conversation with WW, I can’t imagine that it would be effective.

In my case, my feelings do not lead my thinking. My thinking leads my feeling. Analysis and theoretical exploration helps me in many ways.

Same same same. I find these types of discussions very interesting. Thumos has had long-running threads about his personal situation and his feelings and his pain. This one is about the experience of infidelity and what it does to people psychologically. I think that's interesting (perhaps due to my own psych degree). I tend to become a massive nerd about things that affect me. Some people's minds work that way. Thumos can be analytical without it being an escape from anything personal about himself. It probably helps him heal to learn and think about infidelity this way. It has helped me to do the same.

So no, this isn't a debate forum, but this exchanging of ideas and perspectives is actually a healing thing for a lot of people. Seeking to understand trauma isn't an escape from feeling it.

I don't understand why this becomes about Thumos the person instead of about the idea itself. It's not like he can just have a good cry and stop thinking. That doesn't work if this is how your mind operates.

DD - very good points indeed. However, wouldn’t you agree that getting oneself out of infidelity leans more towards action oriented work versus theoretical lab work?

Yes, theoretical lab work can of course be helpful but at the end of the day if you don’t take action to cure the disease (surgery, chemo, amputation, etc) the wound/disease will continue to grow snd fester snd eventually do irreparable harm.

Steve Jobs comes to mind. If you resist the cure bad things can follow. Then, when you wake up nine months later after reality sets in and you say, please give me the real cure, it’s already too late in many cases.

Sure, but whether or not anyone thinks Thumos is doing the right things in his personal life really doesn't affect this trauma bond discussion. That's what I'm not understanding. Why is this about Thumos himself? He mentioned the genetic fallacy a few times, which was a good point. Throwing out the idea because of issues with the one proposing it isn't valid. It doesn't make sense to do that. If this was a thread about Thumos' marriage and what he should do next, then yes, all that advice makes sense. If I were Thumos, I expect I'd feel insulted in this thread. I expect I'd feel like people were trying to play mind games with me. To shut me up by poking at my marriage. To discredit an idea by throwing personal stuff at him just doesn't seem kind.

As an aside, not that it matters, but I've taken all the "get out of infidelity" steps and I'm doing pretty darned well. I've healed tremendously. I can talk about it without pain. I have very few things that even approach being triggers. I'm a happy divorced person. I enjoy these discussions because it helps me to understand what I went through. It's quite an insane trauma and understanding it and why it was so damaging has helped me heal these past 4 years by leaps and bounds. I've expressed agreement with the initial idea all throughout this thread and it isn't because I'm not out of infidelity. One doesn't have to be struggling in one's personal life to think about and express these ideas.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 1:36 AM, Sunday, September 26th]

If I were Thumos, I expect I'd feel insulted in this thread. I expect I'd feel like people were trying to play mind games with me. To shut me up by poking at my marriage. To discredit an idea by throwing personal stuff at him just doesn't seem kind.

If you could give an example of the mind games you refer to that would be appreciated. I also don’t see anyone poking at his marriage or discrediting the idea of trauma bonding. What people have been discrediting is the idea that it should be recommended to all newly betrayed to have a therapeutic separation.

The thread keeps turning to Thumos because he is the one who has brought up this topic. When people bring up a topic there is usually a catalyst for that. Figuring out what that is can often help guide the conversation.

If I were to start a thread in the Wayward Forum about codependency I guarantee that the conversation would turn towards me and my marriage. It would clearly be something I am trying to work through as it relates to the work I’m doing. That would be a natural progression to bringing up the topic.

Why is doing so with Thumos considered insulting?

We load JFO new BSs with a lot of do thises and do thats. It is all well intentioned. Many, I'm presuming, are already overwhelmed based on how I felt when I JFO. Asking them to provide a personality profile is adding a lot to an already heavy load. Perhaps it might be appropriate later on.

Personality types interest me. I've mentioned quite a few times the Myers-Briggs profiles and especially David Kiersey's adaptation. Probably more pertinent when courting.

I very much appreciate the last two posts by Devastated Dee. There seems to be a concerted effort to rip Thumos. Thanks for bringing "trauma bonding" to the table, Thumos. It's real, IMO, and it's important that people have some awareness of it, also IMO.

'I've been thinking about the concept of trauma-bonding. I wonder if that's what keeping me here. Thoughts? Feedback?'

Don't name the thread something stupid like the above quote, Thumos. You started this thread by indicating you had just been exposed to the concept of trauma bonding and explained why you thought it a reasonable dynamic in the betrayed behaviour.

It is correct that SI is not a debating society. So why is there a debate? Thumos didn't ask for the debate. He merely brought forward a concept he thought (as I do) could be applicable in the dynamic following DDay.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 8:33 PM, September 25th (Saturday)]

Theoretical work does not necessarily equal no practical steps taken.

I get that many people don't approach problems the way I do. I'm not interested in making them. I am resistant to anyone mandating my process because it's different from theirs.

Again, for me, thinking precedes feeling. It also precedes action for me. I don't prefer reactive action. I prefer careful evaluation before I act.

In EMS this wasn't always possible in the moment and so I reverted to protocols. These were well researched steps based in practical solutions. But they were open for possible change after careful evaluation of statistical analysis and adopting new technology, etc.

In the early days, I was less discerning due to the pain and so I adopted some basic protocols laid out here at SI. A lot are generalities (dare I say generalizations) but are based on anecdotal reports and a sort of consensus.

I engage the theoretical here and engage in actions suited to my good, my healing, and toward a marriage 2.0

I have discussed the info thumos presented with my WW. It was a very good discussion. It benefitted her in some ways (FOO issues), helped us gauge where we are now, and led to talking about where we still can heal as individuals and as a couple.

I get that this topic/thread may not be helpful for everyone, but it was very beneficial to me.

f you could give an example of the mind games you refer to that would be appreciated. I also don’t see anyone poking at his marriage or discrediting the idea of trauma bonding. What people have been discrediting is the idea that it should be recommended to all newly betrayed to have a therapeutic separation.

The thread keeps turning to Thumos because he is the one who has brought up this topic. When people bring up a topic there is usually a catalyst for that. Figuring out what that is can often help guide the conversation.

If I were to start a thread in the Wayward Forum about codependency I guarantee that the conversation would turn towards me and my marriage. It would clearly be something I am trying to work through as it relates to the work I’m doing. That would be a natural progression to bringing up the topic.

Why is doing so with Thumos considered insulting?

I started gathering quotes from this thread, but I decided against it. I'm not sure that wouldn't turn this into a personal argument and there's no reason for that. There have been suggestions that Thumos shouldn't give advice he didn't take. Discussions on his WW being called a Stepford wife. Accusations of him using analysis to avoid confronting his own personal pain. Attempts to redirect this entire conversation into Thumos, you're only thinking of this because you have an ouchie. Making a fairly intellectual discussion into appeals to emotion this feels anti-R and I reject it.

I've seen people arguing against the idea of a trauma bond, and that's okay. That's a discussion. It's an interesting one. Not everyone agrees on the idea of a therapeutic separation and that's okay too. The exchange of ideas is what makes this useful. When the exchange of ideas is interrupted by "but Thumos, your personal life isn't all in order", that isn't contributing anything useful to the discussion in my opinion. It almost felt like reading a thread about how to help people rebuild after a hurricane and someone accusing the author of having no business discussing it because he lives in Florida.

Steadychevy is onto something with personality types. That's the issue, I think. If you personally opened a discussion about codependency, I wouldn't think to say "But WalkinOnEggshelz, is this about you?". I'd come at it as an exchange of ideas. I would add my personal experiences in in my responses, sure, but I wouldn't think to approach a disagreement with you by poking at things I'd read about your own marriage in other threads. I'd go after the idea and dance with it intellectually for a while to see if it rang true and find any aspects of it I disagreed with.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 3:06 AM, Sunday, September 26th]

Why is this about Thumos himself? He mentioned the genetic fallacy a few times, which was a good point. Throwing out the idea because of issues with the one proposing it isn't valid. It doesn't make sense to do that.

I don’t think anyone on this thread is trying to attack Thumos personally. Nor do I think anyone is trying to make this thread “about Thumos himself”. What I do think people are trying to do is provide some context. And for the purposes of this debate context matters.

Thumos has repeatedly proposed in this thread that a therapeutic separation be standard advice as a course of action for all BS’. The question of whether or not he has any personal experience with the outcome of taking that course of action would be one relevant factor to consider when judging the merits of his proposal.

That is not the genetic fallacy. The genetic fallacy would be if that were the only factor by which the merits of the proposal were judged. Look, if you gave me investment advice your past investment performance would be a relevant factor in my decision of whether or not to take that advice. The investment may still be sound regardless, but it’s something I might be wise to consider in the fucking mix.

But that’s neither here no there. The genetic fallacy claims were just sticking in my craw.

Making a fairly intellectual discussion into appeals to emotion this feels anti-R and I reject it.

Again, context matters. Most of the people posting on this thread have been here a while, so you start to get a feel for where people are coming from. Thumos post…. A lot. The dude is downright prolific. I read a lot of what he posts and I find him engaging and thoughtful. But I would be disingenuous if I didn’t also add that I tend to pick up on some pretty hardline and anti-reconciliation leanings in a lot of what he posts. I’m sure I’m going to get some pushback on that statement but hey look: When you tend to keep hitting the same notes you can expect people to start to drawing some conclusions about the tune that you are playing.

And you know what? That is perfectly good great and fine by me. Pro-R anti-R I could not give less of a fuck where anybody comes down on that particular long running debate. You do you boo. But I do think that shit is relevant to note when people are making blanket recommendations about the actions all BS’ should be advised to take. And especially when the person making those recommendations has no relevant experience to draw from when making the fucking recommendation.

What we basically got here was: I didn’t do this thing but I wholeheartedly believe that if I had done this thing it all would have worked out better for me and so I everyone else should be advised to do this thing.

Again, not “I think in retrospect I should have done this thing so maybe it should be something others should consider.” It was proposed as a possible standard piece of advice to be given to all BS. Right up there with no contact and transparency. I think it is more than valid to challenge a blanket recommendation like that and to include the context in which it is being given.

Especially given the tendency that I suspect sometimes crops up here of members (probably unintentionally) attempting to re-litigate their own situation vicariously through other’s. Not saying that’s what’s happening here, just saying it’s something we all need to watch out for.

I mean look, I did not have a “therapeutic separation” from my wife and we are successfully reconciled. Does that mean I should be coming on here saying that every BS should be given the blanket advice to stick it out 6 months with their WS’ trying to reconcile regardless of the specifics of their situation? Fuck I would be laughed off the fucking site for advice like that. I mean hell, at least I would be drawing from some anecdotal experience in making the recommendation. But I would still be fucking wrong to make it and Thumos would undoubtedly be one of the first people to fucking tell me so.

Last thing I want to say here is to repeat: I don’t think anyone here is trying to attack Thumos on this thread. I think what people are trying to do is fucking help him. He is clearly still not in a satisfactory place with his relationship right now, and all of the theoretical debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, all of the mountains of psychological studies read, all the theories about what makes WS’ tick and their “real” motivations, all posts and threads and arguments about best practices and How BS “should” view their situations… don’t seem to be getting him very much closer to reaching that satisfactory place.

And so I think some people here are trying to gently nudge him into exploring alternate direction. To maybe try to suggest that he has done enough analyzing and it might be time to start acting. To start moving in a direction, whatever that direction may be.

There is more than one kind of limbo here on SI, some of them are just more obvious than others. But they are almost always a shitty place to be.

HT - thank you for your comments. I don’t consider myself anti R. It’s about the individual circumstances.

I post a lot in Mr. Flibble’s thread. I made a strong argument for R, and discussed in depth that to me it boils down to the different personalities of the BS. Many people, particularly men, were able to R in much more serious A circumstances than Mr.F’s. Being that in many cases, perhaps most, it boils down to the personality of the BH in deciding whether to R with a remorseful WS.

And, do you know what happened, I was excoriated for recommending R to Mr. F.

Someone just gave SteadyChevy credit for bringing up personality. That’s fine, but I was actually the one who brought that subject up. I truly think that the personality of the BH (sticking to BH for now) is a major, if not the major component of whether a BH can R with a remorseful WW.

I do think this needs to be discussed further.
It’s not a put down, in my opinion, to posit that part of Thumos’ circumstances, what he posts, how he posts it, and thus how his personality comes across, must have some bearing on how he is dealing with his WW, and his unhappiness in his current status of meh.

Yes, Thumos started a thread about trauma bonds. However, I personally think it’s totally relevant to at some point bring this back to Thumos, his present circumstances, and yes, his personality.

Trauma bonds is a fine discussion, snd very thought provoking. However, I don’t find it surprising in the least that Thumos initiated a thread such as this - highly analytical and theoretical.

Ok. Thumos believes he’s experiencing a trauma bond with his WW, which he believes helps explain his current mindset with his relationship with his WW. Now, how can that be translated to action oriented things?

Whether one thinks that point is relevant to his original posting is up course up for debate.

And, do you know what happened, I was excoriated for recommending R to Mr. F.

Honestly, I think that's fair. I don't think anyone aside from the WS should try and talk someone into R. Infidelity is abuse and I can't see it being good to try and talk someone into staying with a spouse who abused them. That entire convincing a BS to reconcile job is on the WS and it is on the WS to make it a good option.

Someone just gave SteadyChevy credit for bringing up personality. That’s fine, but I was actually the one who brought that subject up. I truly think that the personality of the BH (sticking to BH for now) is a major, if not the major component of whether a BH can R with a remorseful WW.

Fair enough, that was me. I think the personality of the BS is a major factor too. My personality isn't suited for it. Lots of other people are more suited for it.

Last thing I want to say here is to repeat: I don’t think anyone here is trying to attack Thumos on this thread. I think what people are trying to do is fucking help him.

Well...I don't think he posted this so that people could help him personally. I don't recall him asking for that help.

Especially given the tendency that I suspect sometimes crops up here of members (probably unintentionally) attempting to re-litigate their own situation vicariously through other’s. Not saying that’s what’s happening here, just saying it’s something we all need to watch out for.

Isn't that part of what makes this site great, though? That we who have experienced this and made mistakes can advise new members not to make those mistakes? That most definitely helped me in the beginning. Here I was believing what a serial cheater would admit to on DDay and others who had walked my path told me that was the tip of the iceberg. And you know, they were 100% correct. I've been here long enough now to see that this is pretty much always true with my type of cheater. All of us think our situations are soooo unique when we show up and we make so many of the same mistakes. It's profoundly helpful to have this sort of think-tank here with a wealth of experience to take us by the hands and say "Here's how it usually goes. Look out for this. Here's what helped me/would have helped me." The intentions are not to re-litigate our own situations so much as having empathy for others going through what we went through, right? We want to help them. This thread looked to me like "Here's something that might help people". I am out of my own infidelity situation. I stay and advise people who want an RA not to do it. I stay and advise people who are with serial cheaters/sex addicts because that is a particular brand of mindfuck that I can relate to and hopefully help those BSs feel less insane. If I didn't care about anyone's situation but my own, I wouldn't bother. My situation is resolved.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 1:00 AM, Monday, September 27th]

Just because this seems to be raised all too often:
The genetic fallacy, like an ad-hominem (etc) is an informal fallacy. It does not actually invalidate a statement; to do that we need to prove a formal fallacy via logic/mathematics (depending on the statement). Anyway,

Having an emotional bond and then suffering a traumatic event does not create a "trauma bond". It's an involved process complicated with power dynamics, a repeated cycle of abuse/rewards and many other emotional, physical and environmental factors. To try and ascertain a diagnosis over other people on an anonymous forum isn't beneficial (and can be downright harmful to some).

You've mentioned several times feeling angry on behalf of others; feeling justified in speaking for others (which you've edited out I see). But that's the issue - you don't get to be angry on behalf of others and you don't get to speak for others or guess the contents of anyone else's reasoning especially not based on incredibly limited information found on an anonymous forum.

SI has a lot of benefits to offer people - both those that cheated and those that were cheated on - but this kind of thread, in my opinion, isn't one of them.

My wife isn't now or hasn't been trauma bonded to me. I know that because we went to therapy, actual real-world therapy, separately and together. She offered me a chance to work things out together because of her reasons and her grace. And I took that chance because I wanted to build a future with her.

Granted, some people must have developed Stockholm Syndrome with their cheating partner. But not all. On an unrelated note, I'm pretty sure my parents have developed some form of traumatic bonding, although again, very complicated situation and it's not really a one-sided abusive kind of thing. As for you, I don't think you've shown any evidence so far how you've developed this syndrome with your wife.

1. A series of abusive adulterous actions (most affair constitute emotional and psychological abuse, including obviously gaslighting).

Maybe. But to develop a trauma bond you'll need to have a overt abusive behaviour followed by an overt compensatory behaviour to embed the punishment/reward cycle <--- note cycle. And usually some form of a power imbalance.

2. Causes significant and ongoing PTSD in the aftermath of discovery. Can trigger profound feelings of abandonment from childhood and worse.

Can cause PTSD (or PTSD-like symptoms, depending on the research you refer to). PTSD can also cause compulsions to repeat the trauma and/or behavioural patterns related to the traumatic event (I had that, yay me...). That's bonding to trauma, by the way.

3. Leads to a strong trauma bond with the unfaithful partner that is exceedingly hard for a faithful partner to sever.

You've asserted without example or evidence. At best we can say, May lead.

Trauma bonding, it turns out, may not be the exclusive province of only relationships with narcissists and abusers, but rather is the norm in most marriages after affairs. It means most, if not all, wayward spouses are perpetrating some level of abuse — not just during the affair but after and perhaps for a long time after.

You've gone again to asserting without evidence. Most of the actual research on this topic that I've found deals with very specific types of abusive relationships. Yes, those happen in a marriage where one of the partner cheats when that partner exhibits those tendencies and those patterns. Not in all relationships/marriages. There are more things in heaven and earth, Thumos, and more types of people and reasons that people cheat, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I believe this accounts for the various phenomena we observe here: the intense hysterical bonding; the cycle of grief, dissociation, anger, depression, and POLF; the inability of a faithful partner to end the marriage right away in most cases.

That's great that you believe. I don't. And neither one of us is a licensed therapist or an actual social researcher.

This raises profound issues many here on SI not be comfortable with, because it suggests the authors of "Cheating in a Nutshell" are correct.

This is basically you being annoyed that not everyone agrees with Wayne and Tamara Mitchell. It doesn't actually raise any other issue with people not being comfortable with that book.

Anyway, it's 3.41am in Israel and I'm going to sleep. I wish you and your wife well (as I've said before). Good luck, it's a shitty journey but it's well worth it :)

I don't think anyone aside from the WS should try and talk someone into R. Infidelity is abuse and I can't see it being good to try and talk someone into staying with a spouse who abused them. That entire convincing a BS to reconcile job is on the WS and it is on the WS to make it a good option.

OK ... I do think it's helpful to convince people to consider both D & R.

Some people react in a way that takes them on a path that ends up hurting themselves. Taking some time - often just a small bit of time - to understand that the BS has many options and to consider each of those options helps prevent taken a wrong path. More important, considering options helps the BS take back some power.

You can't really say 'yes' to an option unless you can say 'no' to it and pursue another option.

I think what people are trying to do is fucking help him.

Well...I don't think he posted this so that people could help him personally. I don't recall him asking for that help.

If one's goal is not to change, then IMO the goal is to continue to stay the same - in this case, to stay stuck. Discussing why one has reason to stay stuck is too likely to be mere mental masturbation.

I read Thumos's posts as continuations of his forst one, which was a call for help. Further, I don;t think SI's mission is to help people stay stuck.

Again, that's meant as feedback, not criticism. If it's accurate, it points Thumos in the direction that may result in him getting himself unstuck. After all, no one else can do that.

*****

forgettable, I'd call your post a 'tour de force'.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:55 PM, Monday, September 27th]

OK ... I do think it's helpful to convince people to consider both D & R.

Some people react in a way that takes them on a path that ends up hurting themselves. Taking some time - often just a small bit of time - to understand that the BS has many options and to consider each of those options helps prevent taken a wrong path. More important, considering options helps the BS take back some power.

You can't really say 'yes' to an option unless you can say 'no' to it and pursue another option.

This is where we differ and likely always will. I view infidelity as actually worse than a spouse calling you names or punching you in the face. I wouldn't try to talk a person into staying with someone who abused them in any way because that would make me feel like a party to the abuse. It would make me feel dirty. Now if the WS can change and become a good trustworthy person and manage to convince a BS not to leave them, then that's where R support is. But to try and convince someone to stay from the outside? Everything in me recoils at the idea. That applies to people in my real life from even my teenage years. If a friend says their partner mistreated them and they want to break up, I would be appalled at the suggestion that I should try and talk them out of it. OMG.

Can we honestly and truly not agree that we should leave people who treat us badly? Yes, we can stay and give them another chance, but that is such a massive thing to ask that no one aside from the one who hurt them has a right to talk someone into it. Is that actually a contentious idea?

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:21 PM, Monday, September 27th]

I am not Thumos and don't know his mind, so I am not discussing whether he needs help or what he should do in this thread that wasn't about that in the first place. He deserves the respect of being able to open a topic for discussion without people pulling all of his personal life into it, IMO.

I think it is extremely important for anyone who is looking for advice from SI, other forums, or in real life, to always consider the source. That’s one reason I made my post about Thumos personally. Another reason is because I genuinely hope for him to find some contentment.

I also think it’s important for those dishing out advice to really evaluate what their true intentions are. Do you genuinely care about the people who come here? Probably not in anyway deeply meaningful. The decisions they make ultimately don’t affect you. You don’t have to witness their children going through the heartbreak of divorce. You aren’t paying anyone’s bills. You won’t be there in any capacity other than to drop your pretty "words of wisdom" and go on with your day. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with forums like these, obviously I’m here, I just think it’s imperative we remember our place as outside observers who only have a small glimpse into the lives of those who find themselves here.

Back to intentions. What are yours when giving advice? I think it’s good to ask of one’s self. Is it to offer help? Is it to show support? Is it to validate your own decisions? Or even to live vicariously through another poster? Is it possible you are projecting? Is it possible because your situation played out one way, you can’t imagine anyone else’s being different?

The only people in real life who have criticized my decision to stay are extremely broken individuals with their own messed up lives. It was easy for them to tell me what I "should" do, because they wouldn’t be around to walk through the divorce journey with me or my kids. Also, misery loves company was more than an obvious factor. However, as a newly betrayed spouse, I wasn’t in a place to recognize that shit. I internalized their harsh words. It took well over a year to be able to reflect back and see they were not coming from a place of honest concern.

So yeah, when I see advice being given by posters whose actions don’t align with their words, it strikes a chord. And it’s not just one person. The more I’ve read the backstories of posters, the more I couldn’t believe I had ever let their words make me doubt my choices.

All of this is part of the R journey. You will be told to leave. You will be judged for staying. You will have every little thing you share picked apart in any attempt to discredit your R. It’s the reality, and I think it’s good to recognize that it’s happening even here.