SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sorry, bit of a threadjack - and feel free not to answer - but I find this really interesting. How come your entire post is properly owned (ie. using your own voice with "I") except this statement?

If I'm to analyze myself, I guess it's because I view this as a universally true statement. We'd be pretty screwed if we couldn't do that. We'd all be stuck with our first loves forever. Few of us are so lucky as to find the first and last love in one person. Love isn't magic, though it can feel like it. Love is a choice. The initial infatuations are ephemeral. You can fall out of love by making life choices that separate you from that person. I can fall out of love by making life choices to separate me from that person. Feelings fade without reinforcement. It can feel like pulling off your own skin to separate from the one you love, but if that person is toxic to you it's possible to lose the feelings that keep you trapped. Hence the "no contact" suggestion when you do decide to divorce.

Now for me personally, my first love at 13 was David Bowie. As I have not taken the steps to separate myself from his music on my playlist, still loving that dude is on me.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:14 PM, Monday, September 20th]

No amount of wonderful R stories changes that they attempt to trauma bond or that cheating is abusive so the potential for said wonderful R doesn’t change the fact that divorce/separation from an abuser is a perfectly valid decision.

No one on this thread or anywhere else I've seen has said that divorce or separation is not a perfectly valid decision. I have never seen a post that failed to support D or S for anyone who pursues those, and I've read here every day for more than four years. I have seen, on the other hand, some pretty ugly things lobbed at those who are not yet ready to take that step (e.g., BH who are described as 'beta', weak, etc.). The "willfull misunderstanding" here is that some of us who have refuted the proposition, thinly veiled, that R is never a perfectly valid decision as well. The argument looks like this:
1. All (or vast majority of) WS are abusive.
2. All (or vast majority of) BS who don't leave or kick out their WS are trauma bonded.
3. Trauma bonding masquerades as R when, instead, it leads to rugsweeping at best and sometimes far worse.
Ergo, R is almost never viable or healthy, but instead only arises from delusion or psychopathology. Based on many many comments on this thread, R is a very rare unicorn that is almost, maybe completely, unattainable. And those that believe otherwise are particularly damaged, deluded, and only posturing about their lack of victimization (or again, deluded). Is that about right?

I just don't buy it, and I don't think it would have been particularly beneficial for me to think along these lines in my own recovery journey. My observation is that making the decision to divorce or separate can be empowering. I find the decision to R can also be empowering if done right, though it can also be disempowering even under the best of circumstances. They are all healthy options. A one-size-fits-all approach that is so completely dismissive of any other possibility, justified with anecdotes that are self-confirming based on who posts here the most or cherry-picking actual research into the issue and dismissing countervailing information as 'delusional,' not so much. I do think the trauma bond framework can be helpful to some of those who are in limbo, and who may be attached to R in a situation where that's not going to work. But when we start dismissing the experiences and feelings of broad swathes of posters here, I do find that problematic, not just for my own interpretations of my experiences, but for the general healing of a lot of those who find themselves here. I knew pretty early on that I was willing to R with my WH. I do not regret that decision, even if he cheats again or otherwise does something that's a dealbreaker short of that, because of the work I have done on myself. In the depths of the first few months after Dday I had read the prevailing narrative here, I would never have stayed to read and learn every day. Difference of opinion is fine, but this whole argument keeps returning to a delegitimization of R. I just don't agree with that.

I've thought a lot about this thread - enough so that I finally felt the need to post my thoughts

First a disclaimer that my experience may not be the same as the average BS. I was 100% blindsided on Dday and the shock was enormous. I also did not experience trickle truth. I essentially got everything that happened on Dday - there were lots of Q&A sessions for months afterwards, but I knew everything major on day 1.

There was certainly a lot of hysterical bonding in my situation but that didn't start until a month after Dday. And if there was any trauma bonding it certainly wasn't right after Dday. For most of the first month my instinct was to withdraw. My husband was in the guest room most of the time and I was in the bedroom. There were many days where I probably didn't spend five minutes talking to him. And many days the only reason I did try to connect with him was because I wanted to keep the option to R open and that felt like it would be helpful.

But here is what I really wanted to write about. 3 weeks and 2 days after Dday I had to travel for work. I spent 6 days 3,000 miles away from my husband. This is an annual work trip (my company holds a Convention & Trade Show) and far from a relaxing vacation. The 20th anniversary of our first date was also the day I flew home. On the second day of the trip I probably worked 4 hours but every other day I was working or working / flying 10-12+ hours a day. Every other year it felt like I did nothing but work and sleep, but that year I was still only sleeping around 3-5 hours a night and I felt like I had sooooo much free time. I spent hours listening to Beyonce, I reread the last two Harry Potter books and still had to buy another book to fill my time, I spent hours reading a (non-SI) infidelity message board, I spent god knows how many hours crying.

This trip was in many ways the worst part of the first month post-Dday. It was awful. There was nothing therapeutic about it. The only way it may have been helpful was that I realized that this would be so f&@*(!& hard to get over even if I were to move to a city 3,000 miles away. The infidelity essentially never left my mind - I couldn't escape from it. Leaving home did not mean leaving infidelity. It was either top of mind or just below the surface. Walking around I would see signs from the company my husband worked for, in conversations with people someone would mention something that reminded me of my situation, happy couples at the airport would make me angry.

Now I'm sure a work trip was not what you had in mind for a therapeutic separation, but really there are few among us who could drop everything and take a month off of work. Even if we spent 30 days in the same city most of us would be working. I also don't know that taking time off of work would have been the right thing to do - at the time I fantasized about being able to leave and spend time hiking in National Parks, but I was also so grateful every day to have work to come to, so I was probably better off working anyway. And this was only 6 days, not 30 but I don't know that extending the time outwards would have helped my healing or helped me to get my head on straight.

(This statement is meant with compassion so I'm hoping it comes across that way). I think the idea of a therapeutic separation probably sounds amazing four years later now that you have your head on straight. And it might be helpful now, so maybe you should do it now! I don't know that you would be in a better place now if you had taken a 30 day separation right after dday. You might be romanticizing a bit about the idea.

If after dday the BS wants to kick the WS out of the house for a month or forever then they should do it! if it feels right it will probably be helpful. But I don't think a separation will help everyone or that it should be a standard part of the post d-day recommended course of treatment. Thinks can be f*(<!|% awful at home or away from home, with your WS or away from your Ws.

I view this as a universally true statement.

I think that illustrates the point and the issue I find with threads like this. You view it as a universally true statement - is not the same as it is a universally true statement. Which you acknowledge by owning your view in this post.

Generalized statements, especially in a thread like this, especially in a place for people in pain (like SI), can too easily be read as "truths" and be taken at face value. And then be used to self-diagnose (ourselves or others). It applies here, it applies with every "Narcissist" or "Sex Addict" proclamation, etc.

I just don't think that's a net positive contribution for healing.

As far as first crush I've ever had, Melissa Joan Hart

Absolutely although in my case I was aware of the sunk costs fallacy before DDAY. It factored into my thinking and always has.

This is why trauma bonding makes more sense to me. Something made me pause on divorcing my wife.

I think it has more to do with the fact that the WS is not the only one to lose in a divorce. Divorce is a life-changing decision and something that should give everyone pause. It does not mean it is the wrong decision or one you should not consider. But, especially in situations of lengthy marriages with children, there is not doubt a tangible cost. The question is how much of does it cost compared to future earning potential. And the problem is there is not market trend to guide us because everyone's situation is unique.

And the sunk cost fallacy does not apply either, because the decision with affect future costs. Sunk fallacy only concerns itself with decisions made related to past, non-refundable costs. For example, paying for a ticket and staying, despite not having fun, just because you purchased a ticket or continuing to eat after you are full because you want to get your money's worth.

I think the point that outofsorts makes is worth considering too. In the aftermath of Dday, everything is going to suck regardless of your decision to stick it out or split. You are going to have to grieve your "old marriage" either way because there is still a loss associated with both.

But what I think is more important and a way to end in the suffering is to commit to either R or D. That is the way out of limbo. Limbo is one foot in; one foot out. You have to make a decision with what is best for YOU and pursue it. Each is going to have its own pitfalls. But you must weigh the totality of the circumstances when making your decision. And most importantly, you must execute.

I think that illustrates the point and the issue I find with threads like this. You view it as a universally true statement - is not the same as it is a universally true statement. Which you acknowledge by owning your view in this post.

Generalized statements, especially in a thread like this, especially in a place for people in pain (like SI), can too easily be read as "truths" and be taken at face value. And then be used to self-diagnose (ourselves or others). It applies here, it applies with every "Narcissist" or "Sex Addict" proclamation, etc.

I just don't think that's a net positive contribution for healing.

As far as first crush I've ever had, Melissa Joan Hart

She is cute, ha ha ha.

Is it not true, though? Was it incorrect that we can fall out of love with people?

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 11:26 PM, Tuesday, September 21st]

Falling out of love with people

My XWH was diagnosed as NPD tendencies with passive aggressive traits. If he had stayed with the therapist, he'd have gotten the full diagnosis.

My XWH ignored me for 10-15 years. His A crushed the last bit of love out of my heart. Yes, I fell out of love, which is difficult for somebody who is loyal and faithful as they come.

How many people would go to the extreme of using Hello Fresh or Home Fresh just to get their spouse to even talk to them? I should have been the one to cheat, but it comes to moral integrity.

ETA: I admit to being trauma bonded.

[This message edited by leafields at 5:26 AM, Wednesday, September 22nd]

Grayshades

No one on this thread or anywhere else I've seen has said that divorce or separation is not a perfectly valid decision. I have never seen a post that failed to support D or S for anyone who pursues those, and I've read here every day for more than four years.

Explain where and when I said anyone said that. I didn’t. Do not misquote me or accuse me of misquoting others when I did not say that. I’ve read her everyday for more than six years but that doesn’t give me the right to misquote people.

Based on many many comments on this thread, R is a very rare unicorn that is almost, maybe completely, unattainable. And those that believe otherwise are particularly damaged, deluded, and only posturing about their lack of victimization (or again, deluded). Is that about right?

Again, where did I say that? If you can’t read, I can’t help you. But I was very clear.

R is not rare. A WS that stops traumatising their betrayed spouse, particularly by trying to bond with them, is rare. Not sure how much clearer I can be but I’m sure you’ll still find a way to interpret this the way you want to.

I wonder why, oh yeah. Because those who rightfully acknowledge that cheating is abusive and therefore cheaters are abusive, aren’t actually allowed to say that without being misquoted and told they chose to be victims.

So yes, they are told that divorce is a valid choice but not when they cite the reason - which is that cheaters are abusive.

And for the record, R is almost unattainable because the WS is let off the hook and the BS is stuck with having to do all the work, perfectly. Because when they say it’s difficult, the pro-reconciliation posters like yourself tell them they CHOSE to be in that difficult situation. Then the divorce option is suggested. Because how dare a BS divorce because cheating is abusive and their WS is ACTIVELY trying to create trauma bonds. No, then they’re lectured with anecdotal evidence for why trauma bonding is fine but we shouldn’t actually use those words even though they are the right words by definition.

By the way, forgetfulDad of course you would tell BS not to diagnose things. That’s for IC. Of course because it’s one of the things your BS has to do while you’re on here invalidating other BS. For your information, if BS have to be lectured by unqualified BS and WS, then I’m pretty sure our thoughts on trauma bonding are valid. Everyone else is quick to throw around terms like ‘abusive’ and ‘withholding sex’ when it’s about chastising BS, but when the word applies by DEFINITION, we’re told that a professional needs to do that.

As I was saying, divorce is a valid option when it’s’ it fair to the WS’ or other silly reasons like that. Because fairness matters when it concerns the WS.

Divorce is a valid choice, when pro R posters think so. When BS make decisions for themselves about staying in R or in a marriage then they get told they’re wrong. But reconciling with an abuser is fine, divorce is suggested when the BS is simply posting about the FACT that their WS is using trauma bonds to keep abusing them aka cheating or to keep them there. Those are fine.

But we can’t simply acknowledge the behaviour for what it is without someone telling us that they overcame abuse so therefore we need to validate the choice to stay with an abuser.

That’s what it comes down to. If anything’s not a valid choice, it’s that. Don’t shoot the messenger. And don’t tell everyone they have a choice just because you have money and your choice if to stay with the guy who made it necessary for you to get STD tests because the trauma bond didn’t feel like a trauma bond.

You were traumatised, on purpose, by him. Then he continued the abuse. And tried to bond with you. That goes for almost every BS but I’m in the wrong for stating it?! If that makes it sound like R is unattainable then too bad. If the shoe fits, wear it. Just there’s a few happy stories here, with BS who don’t know for sure that their WS stopped cheating, doesn’t mean it’s okay to stay with an abuser or that it will turn out well. That’s not true R, so R is unlikely.

Gently, Womaninpain, I don't know where this comes from:

And for the record, R is almost unattainable because the WS is let off the hook and the BS is stuck with having to do all the work, perfectly.

If that is what R is in your mind, don't R.

If that is what your R is, stop. Divorce. The only good reason for delaying D, if you're describing your life, is to get your ducks in a row.

If that is what your R is and you can't start or complete D, perhaps trauma-bonding is the reason. The reason you're stuck doesn't matter, though. Whatever it may be, I just hope you get the help you need to get out of a sitch that seems, from the little you write about yourself, very toxic.

As concisely as possible, the usual counsel from those of us who are open to both D & R is:

- If you both want to R, and if you both are willing to do the work, R is possible.
- If one or both do not want to R, choose D.
- If one or both does not do the work, you're in false R, so choose D.

The above is often said in this way:

- If the BS wants to R AND if the WS is 'remorseful', R is possible. I believe 'remorseful' means 'wants R and is willing to do the necessary work'.

The work, in MY opinion (and not so much in the opinion of others), is:

BS heals BS.
WS heals WS.
Together BS and WS (re)create the M that both want.

Most of us know no one is perfect, Womaninpain.

I think you're filtering what you read here through very dark glasses, and I think that does yourself a major disservice. Especially now, it's important that you be kind to yourself and act in your own best interests.

You were traumatised, on purpose, by him.

This is essentially cheating in a nutshell.

Is it not true, though? Was it incorrect that we can fall out of love with people?

I don't think this is a universal truth, no. I think there are people who retain love to every person they've loved (whether you'd define that emotion as your "love" is debatable I guess). For myself, I've held an emotional connection with every woman I've allowed myself to be emotionally bonded with. It's a small connection granted that was diminished with time - but it exists. Yes, that means my AP as well. But the emotional connection I've learnt to share with my wife overshadows everything else; I liken it to an ocean most of the time.

I think we can talk - maybe in a different thread - regarding what I mean about leftover emotional connections. What I've learnt about managing them, as well as how to set correct emotional boundaries with people other than those I want to love/bond with.

By the way, forgetfulDad of course you would tell BS not to diagnose things. That’s for IC. Of course because it’s one of the things your BS has to do while you’re on here invalidating other BS.

It's difficult to respond to pain as deep as yours and I don't want to add to it. But. And here is the danger in self-diagnosing on the internet and/or attempting to enact universal truths on anonymous boards. You are not my wife. I'm not your husband. Your pain and his actions are yours and his. The only universal truth here is that you should find help in real life. There are resources available for you in your country. The only way to heal (whether to stay or go) is in therapy out there - not in here. I would tell that to someone who cheated and I would tell that to someone who was cheated-on; because both are human. And deserve help/love/healing/happiness. SI has many benefits and just as many drawbacks, this thread is a good example of one of those drawbacks.

I don't know if anyone in this thread suffers from a trauma bond - any more than they know unless they've been diagnosed by a professional. Self-diagnosing a condition (whether physical or mental) from social media is perilous, to say the least.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 9:50 PM, Thursday, September 23rd]

Self-diagnosing a condition (whether physical or mental) from social media is perilous, to say the least.

Once again, coming from a WS, you aren’t qualified to comment on the validity of trauma bonds when you are the one who created it.

You have a vested interest in downplaying the abuse.

Interesting that you mention your wife and how you don’t want to speak on others’ situations because you don’t know them. Well firstly by downplaying something we are speaking for ourselves on, you are commenting.

And secondly you did know your wife intimately and all her insecurities and issues and you still traumatised her. And she knew you and never expected you to be the reason that she gets checked for horrible diseases.

So, maybe it’s not about knowing people and more about the fact that you did, without a doubt, traumatise your wife. And in every lie you told after and every effort you made to control the outcome. Every time you tried to be intimate with her after dday - you were creating a trauma bond.

Because like when you betrayed her, you didn’t care about her. You were trying to get her to stay by bonding, knowing that she would want her family together and for the pain to stop. You encouraged trauma bonding.

Really don’t know why you’re so against a BS speaking about their situation when you know full well that it’s the truth. WS traumatise their BS, they rarely ever stop straight away on DDay - they pretend they will and try to bond.

That’s a trauma bond.

Like any other abuse. But no one here is arguing that domestic abuse isn’t domestic abuse or saying that the state of the victim after said abuse, needs to be diagnosed. No, we’re allowed to talk about the fact that they’re traumatised and that the abuser often apologises and swears not to do it again. And then they become sweeter and more attentive. Try to get the victim to forgive them.

Sound familiar? Because it’s not different.

Maybe you should go to IC if the idea offends you. I don’t need it as much. I don’t give loved ones STIs you see.

I don't think this is a universal truth, no. I think there are people who retain love to every person they've loved (whether you'd define that emotion as your "love" is debatable I guess). For myself, I've held an emotional connection with every woman I've allowed myself to be emotionally bonded with. It's a small connection granted that was diminished with time - but it exists. Yes, that means my AP as well. But the emotional connection I've learnt to share with my wife overshadows everything else; I liken it to an ocean most of the time.

I think we can talk - maybe in a different thread - regarding what I mean about leftover emotional connections. What I've learnt about managing them, as well as how to set correct emotional boundaries with people other than those I want to love/bond with.

I think we're talking about a different kind of love. There's romantic love and then there's that affection and warm feelings you can have about someone you haven't seen in 30 years. I found out recently that a high school friend of mine had been shot by her husband and though I had not seen her in decades, I felt pain over that and sorrow for her. I have ex-boyfriends who I would feel pain over if I heard something terrible happened to them. But I'm not in love with them anymore. I don't feel a need to see them or interact with them. They exist somewhere doing something and I hope they're happy. Having kind feelings about a person isn't the same as being in love.

I think we're talking about a different kind of love.

I think the topic of love in general and how we perceive it, etc, would be an interesting thread. Is there one on SI? (hard to search backwards obviously).

I think the core romantic love (or at least romantic potential) is what I'm talking about. Although, again, hard to really convey a proper deep discussion over text given the medium and the ease of misinterpreting each other.

@Womaninpain
My vested interests aside, I really hope you find your path to healing. This much pain is, hard to bear.
And yes, I took my own advice and went to therapy. A deep dive of twice a week for over a year. And, believe it or not, even though I've stopped seeing my IC these days, becoming a better person, a better father and a better husband is something I work on every day and I plan to keep at it for the rest of my life.

Still an R vs D debate I see. How disappointing on a support forum. Honestly, I have NEVER seen anyone push R on a poster. I have seen people say "you should just divorce" more than a few times. It’s certainly been said to me, even when I made it clear that’s not what I wanted.

I simply don’t give a fuck if anyone thinks I’m stupid, delusional, minimizing my abuse, or weak for choosing R. I’ve literally been told that shit by a woman who is on her 3rd marriage, and her 4th time moving her son to a new city following some man. Glass houses and all that. I’m the only one who has to live my life. All the "you go girl"s for divorcing my cheating husband won’t pay my bills, raise my children, or make me stop loving him. I will never again defend my decision to stay.

Shit, maybe I actually needed this, because I am beyond over the projection, judgment, and hypocrisy that comes with R. I genuinely think this experience has given me some much needed thicker skin, and a far less judgmental attitude.

My advice to anyone reading this as a newly betrayed who wants to R, do what YOU think is best for YOU. There are healthy ways to reconcile, and it IS possible to overcome this and stay married.

If you want to divorce, almost the entire world is in your corner. Hell I’M in your corner. Your decision is valid and I respect the crap out of it.

T/J Rant over. Hallelujah! Holy Shit! Where’s the Tylenol?

I never understood the pain of infidelity until it happened to me.

People who haven’t reconciled also will not understand what it is or what it looks like, unless they have experienced a similar path.

It used to bother me when people told me how I must feel or how I have to somehow fool myself to enjoy life again with my spouse.

But that was fairly early on in my healing.

As the thread drifts off course, I would echo what others have said, some WS continue the trauma well after the A is over, and I wish that level of EXTRA suffering didn’t happen for you.

I think some WS make it far more horrible for their BS.

I can’t know what THAT feels like, because it didn’t happen to me.

I think if people recognize that bad behavior or manipulation is continuing, D is a fantastic option.

I should also point out, this is my second round in life dealing with abuse. Three and half years as kid, starting at age 8 my step-dad beat me like a drum.
I think infidelity is a unique form of emotional abuse.

In each case, I WAS a victim of pain being inflicted on me that I didn’t deserve or ask for.

At the end of the day, I do get to choose how long I FEEL like a victim.

Not you.

Not anyone.

I’m in charge of how I get to deal with what happened to me.

I wake up every day and choose my life.

Each and every day.

I healed each time by facing my pain instead of running from it or worse, holding on to it. It takes YEARS to get to where I’m at, but I made it. It helped me that my focus was on my value and what I wanted from life — married or solo — and that I’m good however it turns out.

I hope everyone here finds a way to heal as completely as possible.

You were traumatised, on purpose, by him.

This is essentially cheating in a nutshell.

I just don't see it that way.. sorry. My WH had no intention of traumatizing me. His intention was, as I posted earlier, to prove he could still find women and fuck them. He had withdrawn into his own story about our marriage and about me, and in that story, no one cared about him. He was just a wallet on legs, disrespected by us all, unloved and unwanted, in full-on victim mode and drowning in a puddle of his own self-pity.
And of course, with his withdrawal was REAL emotional distance. He was acting like an asshole and unwilling to make any efforts at repairing his relationships with me or with his children. He was miserable to be around, moody and bitching all the time, and he was avoided by all of us because of it. He's not the only one who was surprised that I cared on dday. He'd turned our home into a powder keg with all of us walking on eggshells. So, I was SHOCKED at how badly it hurt me because by this time I didn't think I loved him anymore either. He had been so awful to me for so long.

Mine was NOT a case of "traumatized on purpose". His purpose wasn't ME. His purpose had nothing to do with me. He did quite enough wrong to me already having committed adultery and behaving atrociously in the lead up to it, but I'm not going to blame him for more than what was his fault. He could NOT have predicted that his cheating would result in trauma for me. Hell, I couldn't even have predicted trauma myself. And traumatized I was, more than either of us could ever have imagined.

Experiencing trauma though does NOT mean that I was "trauma bonded". I have always been aware of my choices and from early on, I learned the value of taking ownership in my choices and how empowered I felt when I did so. Knowing that I was where I chose to be meant that I had to take responsibility for my efforts and for my feelings and deal with them, or... make a different choice.

I will gladly blame my fWH for everything that was his fault. But it was never his intent to destroy me. Tweak my nose?.. yeah, of course. He had a bullseye painted on my forehead and all his angst directed at it. But to traumatize me? to cause existential crisis, depression and anxiety?.. No. He didn't believe I cared enough at that point to really get hurt. WS's sometimes go to crazy amounts of mental gymnastics to avoid reality, but that doesn't mean their mindset isn't real to them in the moment.

Sounds like he was resentful of you. Without cause, but still. But tell me again how it wasn't about you at all.

ETA: Honestly CT, this makes me angry on your behalf. He sounds like a self entitled, self absorbed jerk who made his family's life miserable -- and then decided to cheat on you for his own short-sighted validation. I'm glad you worked it out, and I hope he has truly (TRULY) become a different person.

But you're telling us here what a complete asshole he was -- and I believe you. I've seen this kind of thing in action. It doesn't compute that it wasn't about you. He resented you and he felt entitled to do this awful transgressive toxic thing: one of the worst things a human being can do throughout human history. An act of toxic awful abuse.

He KNEW THAT. They all KNOW THAT. Forgettabledad knew it, they all did. They all know it's the ultimate trangression, aside from murder, WHILE THEY ARE CARRYING IT OUT.

And if they don't know it, then they have to be among the most low IQ people on the planet.

And it devastated you. So his intent doesn't amount to shit as far as I'm concerned.

His intentions sure weren't kind, noble, altruistic. None of that. That's for damn sure.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:08 AM, Friday, September 24th]

^^^

There it is.

All the judgement and open disapproval.

Seriously-why should any of you keep trying to help so he can keep saying shitty stuff to and about you-while you try to help and he denies that he needs any help?

Maybe he doesn't need help-great. Let's help someone who wants it.

[This message edited by thisissogross at 9:20 PM, September 23rd (Thursday)]

[This message edited by thisissogross at 3:20 AM, Friday, September 24th]

Yes I'm judgemental and openly disapprove of cheating abusers. Yeppers. 110 percent. We read about their toxic abuse here every single day. I judge it. I disapprove of it. Actually I feel a lot more strongly about it than “disapprove.”

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:25 AM, Friday, September 24th]