SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He sounds like a self entitled, self absorbed jerk who made his family's life miserable -- and then decided to cheat on you for his own short-sighted validation. I'm glad you worked it out, and I hope he has truly (TRULY) become a different person.

But you're telling us here what a complete asshole he was -- and I believe you. I've seen this kind of thing in action. It doesn't compute that it wasn't about you. He resented you and he felt entitled to do this awful transgressive toxic thing: one of the worst things a human being can do throughout human history. An act of toxic awful abuse.

That's the thing though, Thumos. I didn't marry a "self-entitled, self-absorbed jerk". I married a sweet boy just shy of his 21st birthday. This moody creature that he became wasn't him. It was a result of how life's disappointments and hardships can twist a mind, at least for awhile anyway. He was covertly depressed and searching out the dopamine band-aid. His choices were NOT about me, although the thought of tweaking my nose wasn't exactly repellent to him.

At the bottom line though, he was trying to feel better; more attractive, younger, sexier, and more vibrant. It wasn't about doing something malicious TO me. He was doing these awful things FOR himself. And behind my back, I might add. He might have secretly enjoyed the thought of tweaking my nose, but he didn't want me to find out.

I think if a person is going to select R that we do have to wade in and untangle the skein. Either we'll find some empathy for what they were going through or we won't. Not every WS deserves that kind of consideration. But this was a guy who had been getting up at 4am for over thirty years and hauling his ass to a job that didn't provide a whole lot of personal satisfaction in order to provide for his family. There were times when I was a SAHM, part-time worker, and even times I was full-time with him picking up the at-home slack, but he has always taken the position of ultimate responsibility in our well-being, the back-stop. The buck stopped with him and he has felt that pressure and even at times allowed it to warp his view. But, he gets back up, dusts himself off, and goes back to providing for his family.

I'm not saying that all people should get in there and try for R or that it's necessary for BS's to attempt any kind of empathy for their WS. Hell, everyone knows the score. No cheater is owed a second chance. But for those of us who DO choose R, yeah... I'd say we need to get in there, untangle that skein, and figure out if what we find is something we can work with.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:53 AM, Friday, September 24th]

I married a sweet boy just shy of his 21st birthday.

I married a sweet 24 year old woman I’d been dating for three years prior.

That isn't the cold entitled creature I encountered five years ago who stuck around.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure - the greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:00 AM, Friday, September 24th]

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure - the greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

I can't disagree with that. But character isn't an insect set in amber either. It's subject to change, and can fluctuate when the mind has become twisted.

I have tons of empathy for the little boy my XWH was. I have tons of empathy for him in parts of his adult life. What I didn't have and never will have is empathy for the man who took all of the love I had to give and repaid me by cheating profusely for a minimum of 14 months and possibly the entire time. No empathy for that guy. I know he was in pain and I do not care. I know that his brain was not kind to him and I do not care. I know that he struggled and I do not care. Fuck that guy. There are things that a person can do to me that I am incapable of empathy for. Perhaps this really does mean that many of you who R are better people than I am. Probably it does.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:28 AM, Friday, September 24th]

he has always taken the position of ultimate responsibility in our well-being, the back-stop. The buck stopped with him and he has felt that pressure and even at times allowed it to warp his view. But, he gets back up, dusts himself off, and goes back to providing for his family.

Ironically this describes almost all of the betrayed husbands here on SI. Faithful, loyal, hardworking men. Who never cheated on their wives.

This may get me banned but here I go…

Thumos, how much do you hate yourself? You despise cheaters. State matter of factly how abusive they are. Allude to them being irredeemable. Yet you stay with your wife. I don’t need to understand your reasoning, it’s none of my fucking business, but you seem like one of the most self loathing people on here.

Are you looking for external validation in essentially hating your wife, while at the same time refusing to divorce her? I’m sure there are plenty of people willing to accommodate you, but holy shit that sounds like a miserable existence. Are you looking for affirmation that divorce is an acceptable option? I can’t imagine it being that, as you would have a whole ass virtual party thrown for you if that’s what you decided.

Do you need someone to say it’s ok for you to stay with your wife even though she fucked up in one of the worst ways possible? Even though she hurt you? Even though she purposefully betrayed you? That it doesn’t make you less of a man, intellect, or victim? That there can be contentment (even happiness) in reconciliation, without having to minimize the trauma you have endured? That there doesn’t have to be some AHA moment that makes your brain click and go " THIS is why I haven’t left her yet. It all makes sense now. I’m not some chump, I’m a helpless victim incapable of making the best decision for me because of HER." Maybe you love your wife in spite of her selfishness and shitty actions, even if it’s not quite the same as before, and that bugs the hell out of you?

What are you really looking for? I don’t think it’s a question of what you are seeking from SI, but more so from within yourself.

I genuinely hope you can find some peace, and let go of the internal shame that seems to weigh so heavily upon you.

Perhaps this really does mean that many of you who R are better people than I am. Probably it does.

Don't say that, Dee. You're someone who knows her own heart and mind, and that's invaluable. Not every WS deserves a second chance... and certainly, no BS owes one. You did what's best for you and did a damned fine job of it.

Most of us don't choose R because we're altruistically focused on what's best for our WS, you know. When it's all said and done, everything is measured and weighed. We make an assessment about what's best for us, for our families, and yes.. even for our WS, and if everything adds up and the possibility of making it work exists, R can be a great choice. It just doesn't work out that way for everyone.

Most of us don't choose R because we're altruistically focused on what's best for our WS, you know. When it's all said and done, everything is measured and weighed. We make an assessment about what's best for us, for our families, and yes.. even for our WS, and if everything adds up and the possibility of making it work exists, R can be a great choice. It just doesn't work out that way for everyone.

I absolutely do understand that. I don't fault your choice. I'm glad you've made it work for you.

Thumos, have you considered that you've maybe bonded to your trauma rather than trauma bonded to your wife?

As far as what I knew or didn't know. I knew I wasn't right in the head during the entire affair (that said, mine wasn't a secret affair, my wife knew who I was with, when and where). My AP saved me from suicide early on when we met and well, that made transferring emotional bonds easier I think - but a debate over my fucked up situation can be for another thread. It was (and I was) a mess...

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

Would you say this quote is true for a betrayed husband that stuck around with a wife who cheated on him? And what exactly is the true character revealed then?

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 8:34 PM, Friday, September 24th]

forgettabledad,

Thank you for the response. I do have empathy for how painful this is for WS. I've been blunt in the past in the Wayward forum, but I strive to be as kind as I can be now. That said, I'm always going to default in my feelings on behalf of BS's. I realize I get my back up on behalf of other BS's, but that is just how it is for me.

Would you say this quote is true for a betrayed husband that stuck around with a wife who cheated on him? And what exactly is the true character revealed then?

Yes, would totally concur with you here. On what is being revealed, well that is sort of up for interpretation. The quote comes from legendary screenwriting coach Robert McKee, and it has always struck me as vitally true for the human condition -- and especially in situations that are high stakes like infidelity.

On the WS side, the pressure of developing an affair reveals at least some strong aspects of true character (at least that is my view). Whether a WS discloses voluntarily or is confronted reveals something. Whether a WS engages in trickle truth and blameshifting, pressures to rugsweep, footdrags on disclosure, etc. All of this reveals something substantial about true character (which we could also probably combine with worldview/life philosophy - everyone has a worldview, even if they claim not to). As CT often points out, WS's often have an algorithmic "if/then" program they run in their heads that allows them to see vows as conditional/contextual in some way. That's a worldview, which is in my view somewhat related to true character.

What is that thing? What is revealed? I don't know precisely, and it really depends on the individual WS, but it ain't great. I'd go back to the fact that the observation was developed by a screenwriter. Watch movies, watch what are called "reversals" in a story, decisions a character makes. Some substantial element of true character is revealed. Take Michael Corleone, for example. What Michael becomes over the course of two movies is actually who he was all along -- it is merely revealed in stages. In the third film (my least favorite and I tend to avoid it) Michael is filled with real remorse over the course of his life. Unfortunately, it is too late.

On the BS side, to answer your other question: What is revealed? Well, I'd argue that what is revealed is largely the common decency of most BS's. With a few exceptions, what I read here on SI over and over is from loyal, stable people filled with pain, anger, sadness, depression and grief trying to overcome one of the worst transgressions a human can endure.

If a husband sticks around, it's mostly because, in my view, he loved the wife he thought he had (although he must now grasp the reality of the real woman in front of him), he viewed the marriage as a good one 10 seconds before discovery (and typically it was an empirically good marriage, notwithstanding the false retroactive narratives WW's often try to perpetrate, or the lurching and absurd claims of being "unhaaapy" for years, or worse the false DV charges WW's try to foment, or even the milder yet still false claims of "emotional abuse"), because he doesn't want to create an awful disruption in his children's lives, because he feels it is his place to "take the hit" for family, and because he's waiting to see if (hoping against hope, or hopium perhaps) his wife can truly (TRULY) reach a state of metanoia and whether that's going to be enough for him. We read this time and time again. I guess we could disregard what BH's are telling us, or take them at their word. I'd say the same for betrayed wives who stay.

For those who leave, it's much the same from where I sit: They are decent, honorable, loyal people who feel that once trust has been fundamentally violated they must move on in their lives. Many BH's who stay feel much the same way, but I find often with those of us who stay we are coping with a worldview/true character in which we have positioned ourselves opposite the flaws of our forefathers and had vowed to create new generational patterns. It is a life-altering event to realize we may not be able to live up to this obligation.

In my own case, I'm only 1.7 years out from D-Day 2 -- which was as substantial a hit and as traumatic as D-Day 1. So I'm giving myself some grace on this front. I'm a bit confused by whoever thought I was resisting divorce. That isn't the trajectory I've taken at all. In point of fact, I was ready to pull the trigger and then the pandemic lockdowns began. Now, I realize divorces happened during the pandemic. But my own feeling has been that I'd be a real shitheel to leave my family in the midst of one of the most massive global crises in our lifetimes. That's where I'm at right now. Other than that, my biggest resistance to divorce is the hit my son will take. I have rational and well-founded fears about failure to thrive academically, behavioral issues, teenage drug or alcohol use, and long-term outcomes for him. My daughter is nearly 20, so while a divorce would still hit her hard, she is well on her way to being an adult on her own.

I do find it revelatory how this thread keeps drifting into some psychoanalysis of Thumos, and my motives or my own situation, rather than staying on point with regard to the actual topic. We've even seen, just in the past few posts ad hominem. We already saw the genetic fallacy repeatedly. I find that odd and somewhat telling.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:53 PM, Friday, September 24th]

There are things that a person can do to me that I am incapable of empathy for.

This is interesting to me because I am very similar. Something just turns off in me after I have been abused never to return. This happened after False R, I could not regain any semblance of respect, love or empathy for my xWS. He said I helped to push him away too and maybe I did. He was incapable of empathy the entire time even pre-A's so that is something that has been consistent with him.

Oh did I want R. I wanted the happy ending. I wanted my cheater to "get it" and no amount of "I wants" led to what I wanted sadly. I was and still am trauma bonded to my xWS. My therapist has diagnosed me with c-PTSD from it.

I am happy for those who R who don't have to experience a "trauma bond" a true trauma bond. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It's like have cognitive dissonance while withdrawing from heroin.

This is interesting to me because I am very similar. Something just turns off in me after I have been abused never to return.

Yep. There's a wall that goes up, never to be taken down. And that applies to friends, family, acquaintances, etc. Permanently changes the relationship.

Thumos, have you considered that you've maybe bonded to trauma rather than trauma bonded with your wife?

This seems like a clever word game and frankly a sly form of victim shaming. Regardless since there is literature on trauma bonds related to infidelity and none that I can find related to the notion you've posited, I feel on pretty firm ground discussing trauma bonding related to infidelity.

I agree that staying with a WS in the midst of a pandemic has its merits. However, it’s been discussed many times that staying with a WS because of children is not necessarily healthy for the BS and in some cases for the child, assuming the BS/WS relationship at home is bad.

However, having given the WS plenty of opportunity during this long pandemic to disclose the truth, i think there should be a post pandemic end game. This assumes that the pandemic reason not to D is real snd of import, and not part of an internal dialogue to continue to drag it out, with all the accompanying unhappiness.

I’m a big believer in plainly stated requirements with understood deadlines. Sometimes these conversations need to be had a number of times to get through to the other side.

staying with a WS because of children is not necessarily healthy for the BS and in some cases for the child, assuming the BS/WS relationship at home is bad.

Yes this corollary assumes the relationship is bad and is displaying a bad model for the kids. But what if the post-infidelity relationship isn't? Someone said something weird about me hating my wife. There's been no evidence for that at all here so I can't imagine where that person came up with that. Being angry as a primary moral emotion (Jonathan Haidt again) isn't the same as hating someone. In fact, far from it. I'm nothing but kind to my wife. Being critical of a person’s bad choices and actions and judging that as harmful isn't hateful. It seems a really confused point of view to see it that way.

I’m a big believer in plainly stated requirements with understood deadlines. Sometimes these conversations need to be had a number of times to get through to the other side.

This is generally good advice. In my own case I feel I've reached the end of further disclosure. Another conversation asking for the truth seems fairly pointless at this stage. I've asked and asked.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:41 PM, Friday, September 24th]

And is the answer essentially we’re good now so what’s the point in causing further unnecessary pain?

It’s always amazing that the WS doesn’t understand the serious nature of the game of chicken they’re playing.

The problem is that generally they think they’re terrific at that game. Logical thinking people never play the game of chicken because the results are always but uncertain.

I do find it revelatory how this thread keeps drifting into some psychoanalysis of Thumos, and my motives or my own situation, rather than staying on point with regard to the actual topic. We've even seen, just in the past few posts ad hominem.

In order to get the thread back on topic, I think it would be helpful if there was a clear direction you hoped it would go.

Is the purpose of the topic to explore trauma bonds and how they may relate to post DDay dynamics with your (general term)?

Is the purpose of this thread to push the idea that because of the trauma bond it should be recommended that all couples have a trial separation post DDay?

Perhaps you may want to discuss how a trauma bond relates to your own situation specifically and how that has affected you, but may not be comfortable with getting that vulnerable.

Is the purpose of the topic to explore trauma bonds and how they may relate to post DDay dynamics with your (general term)?

Yes.

Is the purpose of this thread to push the idea that because of the trauma bond it should be recommended that all couples have a trial separation post DDay?

I don't think I've pushed that idea -- I did suggest that betrayal trauma and trauma bonds in infidelity naturally connect to an abuse framework for viewing infidelity and the natural consequences of it. It now seems increasingly clear that -- regardless of intentionality -- infidelity with its many offshoots of gaslighting, physical risk, mind games, DARVO, blameshifting and attempts to rugsweep and lack empathy -- constitutes a fairly pernicious form of abuse. Certainly we can all agree that a wayward spouse's intentions in carrying out infidelity are not noble, altruistic, fair, kind and so on. None of that. Most would probably also agree that there is almost always some level of animus, resentment, or even outright enmity directed against a BS by a WS which provides the pretext for justifying infidelity.

And I think we can agree that the actions of infidelity have clear harmful outcomes on a betrayed spouse's mental and physical health. Infidelity endangers a BS's very life given the high rates of unprotected sex by affair partners. Infidelity causes long-term PTSD, depression, elevated BP, anxiety and many other physical harms. There also various associated mental and emotional harms. Trust is destroyed. The body is flooded with endogenous opioids, as it would in the case of a wounded soldier in war.

Thus if we assume that in most, if not all, cases a betrayed spouse is suffering betrayal trauma and the associated physiological outcomes from that (increasingly well-documented both from a scientific and therapeutic perspective) and if we start from the premise that infidelity is by its very nature a form of both emotional and physical abuse, then an organic follow-on from this seems to be that in many cases faithful spouses develop a trauma bond with the individual who perpetrated said betrayal trauma. And so we have the information provided by the Foundation for Post-Traumatic Healing and Complex Trauma Research, describing trauma bonds, which seems to strikingly track with post D-Day dynamics.

Another natural follow-on would be to examine whether it might be beneficial within a therapeutic setting to strongly recommend that a BS consider a therapeutic separation (given that a therapist would likely recommend getting an abused spouse in another abuse scenario into place of mental and physical wellbeing and safety). I also said repeatedly that in various situations, the distinctives of that situation might prevent a therapeutic separation.

Looking at it another way, it would make very little sense to insist that a shell-shocked soldier be sent back to the front on the basis of a piece of paper. Betrayed spouses are shell-shocked. A therapeutic separation is akin to sending a shell-shocked solider away from the front and to the countryside to achieve some modicum of recovery.

Anyway, this logical train of thought is where I started, and that's what I said. And that's what I'm saying yet again.

ETA: I forgot to add here that there's increasing evidence that betrayal trauma causes MORE physical illness than events such as military combat, car accidents, a physical attack from someone you don't know, or the death of a loved one. Delayed mental and physical reactions can start years after the initial infidelity attack (and this may be one reason why we see BS's showing up here decades later experiencing sudden onset of betrayal trauma symptoms).

Why this is so is probably not yet fully understood, yet it doesn't take much of a leap to assume it's because of the close proximity of the perpetrator to the victim of betrayal trauma and the highly personalized nature of the betrayal (making somewhat meaningless the oft-used distinction "it wasn't about you").

Another reason is that because of the highly personalized nature of an infidelity attack (and I think it's fair to call it that) the victim is in a difficult position relative to the ability sever ties with the perpetrator. Thus a trauma bond. Even if we divorce, we still must be in constant contact with the perpetrator if we have kids. So the brain and body of a betrayal trauma victim logically react with a feeling of being trapped, anxiety about another infidelity attack coming in the future and so on. The victim of trauma from a tornado, for example, doesn't have this same level of anxiety. They may experience it, but logically they can suss out that the odds of being in another tornado are low. The odds of being subjected to another infidelity attack by the perpetrator are in fact much higher.

Indeed we read about reccurence all the time here on SI.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:25 PM, Friday, September 24th]

Perhaps you may want to discuss how a trauma bond relates to your own situation specifically and how that has affected you, but may not be comfortable with getting that vulnerable.

Actually, I think I did that rather voluminously in this thread. Just go back and read.

Thumos, have you considered that you've maybe bonded to trauma rather than trauma bonded with your wife?

This seems like a clever word game and frankly a sly form of victim shaming. Regardless since there is literature on trauma bonds related to infidelity and none that I can find related to the notion you've posited, I feel on pretty firm ground discussing trauma bonding related to infidelity.

Accurately assessed, Thumos. Occurs in previous posts in this thread as well, condescendingly, to other posters.