SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But if we sit here and say, "divorce without reason is fine", we may as well also defend other vow breaking for personal gain. I don't know, maybe infidelity for example?

I don't see it that way. I don't see any divorces that happen without reason. They may happen without reason that makes sense to us personally, but there are always reasons. No one is served by someone staying with them simply because they can't find a good enough reason to leave. That sounds awfully sad for the other spouse. I don't want someone with me out of duty. I want them to want to be there. That has nothing to do with defending actual abuse like infidelity.

If there isn't a reason to leave, make a reason to stay. Make a goal together. Do something about it.

You aren't going to magically find the unnameable thing that was missing in your marriage by leaving it.

You aren't going to magically find the unnameable thing that was missing in your marriage by leaving it.

Except sometimes you do--it's called yourself instead of the marriage. I feel you are ignoring the statistic or truth that many women who D or are widowed have no desire to remarry. In fact, there have been many articles about the growing trend of LAT (living apart together), mainly driven by women. They want long term committed relationships but do not want to live with their partner or marry. Why? They do not want to be responsible for them, for their emotional or physical well being.

It's a huge thing. I think Honor is not fond of marriage in general; that's her point. And MC won't change that.

If I ever D or something happens to my H, I would be open to a new relationship but not to marriage. I have no desire to remarry. None. Living alone sounds like heaven to me. Sometimes I wish my H would just move across the street. Lol.

Look it up: LAT

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:59 AM, Wednesday, January 5th]

Is there some study or something concluding that women find marriage more onerous or burdensome than men do? A lot of what is discussed in this thread seems to ignore the sacrifices and burdens men take on in marriage. I have seen articles debunking the notion that females who work take on more of the load for household duties , childcare etc.

When my kids were young myself and most of the other dads I associated with were doing housework, cooking, taking kids to the doctor,coaching, yardwork etc. Same with my brothers in law in their marriages. The demands were at least equal to what our wives were doing, in some cases greater.
A typical day for me was to get up, dress my two boys, make breakfast for them, pack their lunches, take them to daycare, visit them at lunch, continue working my job, pick them up, drive home, make dinner, bathe them , play with them, read to them, get them to bed, then start on the dishes. Rinse and repeat the next day.

My wife would blow in say around midnight or later, often drunk. Wake me from a sound sleep, on occasion to describe the body of the guy she had been with. She would be up and gone before the boys woke up. Typically, as toddlers, they might see her one or two days a week for a brief period.

I find so much in this thread just sad, but this is downright disturbing!

They want long term committed relationships but do not want to live with their partner or marry. Why? They do not want to be responsible for them, for their emotional or physical well being.

If I am reading this correctly women are looking for a committed exclusive relationship, but hey when your parent dies or you get cancer it's sorry I didn't sign up for this. Why would I want to waste my time filling your need for companionship when you are just going to bolt when things get a little hard. I'm not saying I have to find someone to marry or live with, but I am expecting someone who is willing to do more than just be there when things are good or until the next better thing comes along. I'd rather be single than in a relationship with someone who thinks this way.

And for complete transparency this has a taste of why I broke off my latest relationship. Sorry, but I value myself enough to not be involved in this kind of BS.

When my kids were young myself and most of the other dads I associated with were doing housework, cooking, taking kids to the doctor,coaching, yardwork etc. Same with my brothers in law in their marriages. The demands were at least equal to what our wives were doing, in some cases greater

Clearly you and the other dads you associated with are doing it right. My parents have an equal partnership too. Those are the marriages that tend to do a lot better (assuming that you hadn't, like me, married an idiot).

Most of the marriages that I've seen a woman up and leave seemingly for no reason were not like that. They were marriages where the woman was exhausted and doing way more than her husband was. Despite you and your friends, a huge percentage of marriages still have the bulk of the everyday life expectations put on the woman. A great many marriages leave a woman feeling like she has an extra child to care for and that's about as unromantic and unsexy as it gets. Resentment builds and one day she leaves for "no reason" and like OIN says, lots of those women do not remarry.

If I am reading this correctly women are looking for a committed exclusive relationship, but hey when your parent dies or you get cancer it's sorry I didn't sign up for this. Why would I want to waste my time filling your need for companionship when you are just going to bolt when things get a little hard. I'm not saying I have to find someone to marry or live with, but I am expecting someone who is willing to do more than just be there when things are good or until the next better thing comes along. I'd rather be single than in a relationship with someone who thinks this way.

I'd rather be single than be with someone like that too.

Speaking personally, until I'm ready to take on more than I have going on right now, I'm avoiding relationships. I may wind up as one of those women who doesn't ever remarry by choice and that's okay. I won't half-ass a relationship, though.

Although...that living together apart thing is appealing as long as the person I'm with would also like that idea. I absolutely love the times when I'm the only one in the house and the only one to care for. It is very peaceful.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 2:34 PM, Wednesday, January 5th]

I think the other type of woman who just up and leaves was spoiled and overly catered to from the start. I know one or two women like this (one is also a cheater). In my view, their husbands were blind but everyone else could see that these women were:

Self-centered

Spoiled

Somewhat pretentious

Immature

Surprise, surprise when these women don't stick it out. Sometimes there were huge red flags flying, and the partner--in this particular case, men--chose to ignore them because they wanted things (her) to be different.

Exhausted women leave or just don't want to remarry when they do become single.

And spoiled, self-centered women leave. But they were always spoiled; marriage did not change them. With these types of women, their Hs will need to get their pickers checked as nobody is surprised when the woman bails except her husband (my brother is one of these husbands).

Is Honor one of those spoiled women? Quite possibly. And then I'd ask why the husband chose to ignore the red flags as my brother did (we even told him--just once--that we weren't sure his partner was "wife" material, but he called us judgmental. Oh, well. We tried).

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:57 PM, Wednesday, January 5th]

Oh, and stupid women leave too. 🤣 There are always people doing stupid things that make you scratch your head. But besides those outliers, if you are looking for trends, then from what I have seen it's the weary and/or the spoiled who exit marriage for supposedly no reason (that others can understand). Maybe other people have noticed other trends though.

Who is entirely happy in any form of existence, single or married? This pursuit of happiness at all costs vs living a meaningful life, satisfying one's s responsibilities to one's s family and community seems to me to be the right way to live.

This Honor woman seems oblivious to the likelihood that her husband has dissatisfaction and struggles, too. Her kids are 7 and under, she has material wealth, her husband is a good person and she blows up her family to navel gaze, as Thumos puts it?

Seems to me unlikely that she knows what a real struggle life is for many. She is dissatisfied and unhappy because her life is not like those she sees in the movies or reads about.

I'm late to the party on this thread, but Linus, this is absolute GOLD.

Despite you and your friends, a huge percentage of marriages still have the bulk of the everyday life expectations put on the woman. A great many marriages leave a woman feeling like she has an extra child to care for and that's about as unromantic and unsexy as it gets.

Is there data backing this up empirically with sound research? I'm not saying this doesn't happen, obviously, but bear in mind the audience of men here at SI.

I would warrant you're getting an oversampling here of most BH’s who are exceedingly empathetic, caring men who were/are great dads and good husbands and responsible adults who their wives took for granted and stepped on.

I'm the bread winner in spades, cook gourmet meals, (used to before DDAY) do a completely equal share of housework and did my darndest to bring the sexy. Now admittedly I'm pretty apathetic about all of that, but not on the pre-infidelity era.

So honestly, Dee, this kind of sentiment strikes those of us in that category as not ringing true to us, and our lived experience. You're talking to a lot of men here who have seen what a selfish, cruel, entitled, immature self-centered woman looks like up close and personal. We are finely attuned to it. We're terrified of losing that newfound ability, in some ways I guess.

So as I read Honor’s piece she strikes me as a self regarding, immature, over-educated woman with a lot of First World problems. And now she's trying to justify to herself why she done lost her damn mind. And seeking more attention in the bargain, because that's what solipsistic people do. And really failing on all fronts.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:41 PM, Wednesday, January 5th]

I think there is something being missed with regard to reasons a partner may leave. My first husband was,is, a wonderful guy. We belonged to a very fundamental evangelical church that his entire family was deeply involved in. He worked hard, and participated in the work load at home. We even saved ourselves for marriage. It should have been the perfect marriage. It took me about a year to figure out that he was gay. He never acted on it to my knowledge, (other than a fascination with male porn) but he was repulsed by me, even though anyone would tell you I was a real looker back in day. It's why it was so easy for him to not engage in sex before marriage.

Divorce was strictly forbidden in our church. Vows were vows, and there was no gray area, for all the same reasons people on this thread are pointing out. I taught Sunday School, was their Bible Camp chef, and sang in the choir. My entire social life revolved around the church. I knew leaving my marriage would end everything about my life as I knew it, but I left. I was in my 20s and looking at living a lie for the rest of my life. So I left, and I never told anyone in our church he was gay. To do so would have destroyed him and his family as well. I think his father knew. He was the only family member that told me I was right to end it, but wouldn't say why. True to my prediction I was completely ostracized by all my fellow church goers and friends, and it appeared they were right to do so. But they didn't know what I knew. Anymore than any of us really know why anyone leaves someone who doesn't fit the list of allowables, abusive, infidelity, etc.

So a real big reason some people leave is that they find out they were sold a false bill of goods. It doesn't have to be as drastic as a surprise gay partner, but whatever it is, it's dishonest. The leaving partner doesn't deserve to be labeled a quitter because left a person who never really was on their team in the first place.

There is plenty on the internet opposing this view that a huge % of women are shouldering more than their fair share of the childcare and household duties. And, there are studies supporting this allegation of more work for women as well.

From my recollection, the studies that oppose the allegation cited duties the men were doing that were not considered, like working more hours on their jobs on average, maintaining vehicles, yard work and home repair/ improvements, coaching kids teams, being scout leaders etc.

Again, this is anecdotal, but in my case and virtually all the dads I associated with when the kids were little, it certainly appeared we were pulling our weight, if not more.

Working full time and raising kids, 5 in my case, was tiring but nothing more than what I had witnessed with my parents and friends' parents growing up.

I just do not buy that this endeavor is more taxing on mothers than fathers. And, any father who just divorces his wife for these vague dissatisfaction expressed in this women's article would certainly not be celebrated or labeled " empowered".

And, I know quite a few divorced men, some BHs that are not in any hurry to get remarried. Typically, their sex lives are better single, as the studies show.

I would warrant you're getting an oversampling here of most BH’s who are exceedingly empathetic, caring men who were/are great dads and good husbands and responsible adults who their wives took for granted and stepped on

Oh for sure. I'd agree with that 100%. Most of the men here impress me a lot more than men on random other parts of the internet.

So I do get this:

So honestly, Dee, this kind of sentiment strikes those of us in that category as not ringing true to us, and our lived experience. You're talking to a lot of men here who have seen what a selfish, cruel, entitled, immature self-centered woman looks like up close and personal. We are finely attuned to it. We're terrified of losing that newfound ability, in some ways I guess.

It probably doesn't ring true to most men here. That's why I put a caveat in one of my posts that I was not referring to men in general or anyone on this site. This is a sampling of some of the better men in the universe, as it is a sampling of some of the better women. It seems those of us who get cheated on and are so devastated by it that we reach out for help in a community tend to be decent mature empathetic people. The BWs here aren't going to relate to the lesser women and the BHs aren't going to relate to the lesser men because we just would not behave that way.

As for data, I've read quite a few studies that have married and cohabiting women doing the majority of the housework and child-rearing. Now are they all peer-reviewed and well-conducted? I don't know. It does match a lot with my own lived experience and what I've seen in the world around me.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:14 PM, Wednesday, January 5th]

Again, the countervailing studies I read pointed out the failure to consider the categories of extra duties the husbands were doing. Same kind of debate on the gender pay gap studies re what was taken into consideration.

I know my wife had way more leisure time than me. In fact, when I started tracking her nights out to confirm I was not imagining the disparity ( 112 out of 180 nights out with me doing solo duty with the kids)and I complained ("say, I could use a little help here"), I was told" of course I get more time off than you, I have more friends than you". ( affair partners, app).

I haven't read the studies you're referring to. And I definitely am not thinking of the kind of husband you were, because it sounds like you were a mature responsible man married to a very selfish immature woman. That does happen too. It sucks profoundly.

I can come up with all sorts of relationship arrangements that are "non-traditional".

My $0.02 is that if you expect exclusivity in a "LAT" situation you are delusional. The level of transparency and additional communication required for most people to continue on that way with real exclusivity would be extremely conducive to solving the material issues of living together. LAT is "don't ask don't tell" open relationship as far as I'm concerned.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:14 PM, Wednesday, January 5th]

Really? So unless you're married and under the same roof, it's an open relationship?

Really? So unless you're married and under the same roof, it's an open relationship?

Not quite. I'm saying that if you are really committed and exclusive in a relationship, moving in together is a natural progression because it takes less total resources than living apart. There are extenuating circumstances (two jobs that are further apart that are very important for each individual for career growth), but if the reason for doing it is "more personal private time", you bet your ass you have created an environment ripe for additional partners. You have time to go hang out with friends without telling your SO. Doubtlessly some of those friends are interesting and attractive. Doubtlessly some of them would be happy to have NSA sex and keep it quiet. The kind of person that has the mental energy and fortitude to maintain boundaries in this situation almost certainly has the capability of figuring out a chore distribution and household management style that doesn't make the other person feel stifled.

So if you choose LAT long term, you are probably both avoidant, both incapable of good communication, both lacking in the ability to make serious attachment, and would happily fall into the pull of an A. It's a strong pull.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:34 PM, Wednesday, January 5th]

but if the reason for doing it is "more personal private time", you bet your ass you have created an environment ripe for additional partners. You have time to go hang out with friends without telling your SO. Doubtlessly some of those friends are interesting and attractive. Doubtlessly some of them would be happy to have NSA sex and keep it quiet. The kind of person that has the mental energy and fortitude to maintain boundaries in this situation almost certainly has the capability of figuring out a chore distribution and household management style that doesn't make the other person feel stifled.

So, do correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that what prevents cheating is the near-constant presence of your SO? People can't be trusted if they aren't living together? I'm having a hard time relating to this. So people who date can't be expected not to cheat until they've moved in together? Does this apply to military members stationed overseas for months at a time too? Is cheating kinda understandable in those cases? How about for their spouses left at home socializing without them?