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Preach Dee.

I'll even go a step further so as to say that the exhausted women don't even necessarily have to have "bad" husbands for them to be taking on more of the mental, physical and emotional load of motherhood and marriage and family. Many/most of the men in these relationships do more than their fathers ever dreamed of. They didn't grow up with the crushing weight of the internal and external expectations that women did however.

Dee *ahem* your empowerment is showing.... tuck it away please

It does spring out at the most inopportune moments.

I'll even go a step further so as to say that the exhausted women don't even necessarily have to have "bad" husbands for them to be taking on more of the mental, physical and emotional load of motherhood and marriage and family. Many/most of the men in these relationships do more than their fathers ever dreamed of. They didn't grow up with the crushing weight of the internal and external expectations that women did however.

Right. We're just expected to do certain things and it doesn't only hurt women. It was a revelation to my first husband who was an awesome cook and hated yardwork that I would gladly do all the dishes and mow the lawn while he cooked and cleaned the house. Even then, he was concerned that someone would drive by and see me mowing and think that he was a failure as a man for his wife doing the yardwork. But we were happier with that simple and easy arrangement than we would have been if we followed traditional gender roles about it.

Incidentally, his yard has looked awful since we divorced and mine looks pretty good, ha ha ha.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 11:35 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

wait until the kids are grown before bailing.

From what I have seen in my real life, men whose children are grown and gone are just as furious when their wives leave, maybe even more so. The men on this thread appear to feel the same way.

Would Honor's leaving be acceptable if the kids were grown? Be honest. Is Honor's offense being a terrible mom or a terrible wife?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:35 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

I don't have a problem with female empowerment as the genuine article. who would? I have a problem with the Eat Pray Love and Honor Jones amd Sandra Tsing Loh types misappropriating the idea for their sick-making, eye-rolling inducing pap. That's why the quotation marks. It's sarcasm.

As far as her being a wayward, I never said that. I said her thinking has the hallmarks of it and there are hints and whiffs of it from her. These sorts of articles are intentionally vague in exactly the same vein that waywards tend to talk and rationalize. It's striking actually.

That's my opinion. Judging by most of the comments in this thread, most here agree.

That said she might be pure as the driven snow.

As far as her husband it doesn't take much to infer he's one up in this situation. After all he's not the one who wanted a divorce more likely to leave the kids with scars than not. That alone makes him someone who puts others before himself, in contrast to Honor.

And yes I do judge her harshly and would anyone else making the same silly reasoning about why they divorced. As I said we can divorce for any old reason, including that we don't like the set of our spouse’s jaw. That doesn't mean we should. Doing so makes one shallow, however.

If our standards for marriages staying together or divorcing were a bit more rigorous than that one spouse is unhappy in the moment and needs to pin that on someone, that rigor might translate into cultural attitudes about infidelity as well. Which I think we can all agree Is taken far too lightly these days.

Would Honor's leaving be acceptable if the kids were grown? Be honest. Is Honor's offense being a terrible mom or a terrible wife?

It would still be generally shitty behavior if her reasoning remained the same but it would be more acceptable and less deleterious. for sure.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:39 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

If our standards for marriages staying together or divorcing were a bit more rigorous than that one spouse is unhappy in the moment and needs to pin that on someone, that rigor might translate into cultural attitudes about infidelity as well. Which I think we can all agree Is taken far too lightly these days.

That idea fills me with terror, Thumos. The idea of being unable to divorce unless I had a "good enough reason" sounds like prison to me. I doubt I would ever have married if I wasn't able to get out of it for any reason. I wouldn't toss a spouse aside for a triviality, but I most definitely don't feel okay about not having the power to do so.

Maybe husbands need to be empowered.

Easy course to chart, brother. Lose the conscience and sense of familial obligation, and then 'eat, pray, love.'

The idea of being unable to divorce unless I had a "good enough reason" sounds like prison to me.

I have never met someone whose spouse was divorcing them who believed that spouse to have "a good reason." This is very triggery for me as someone who has been told that I never have a good reason for my feelings or for objecting, first with my FOO and then my H. I now know that other people's opinions on my life choices simply don't matter.

The Eat, Pray, Love author did not have children. So what's the problem?

As far as her being a wayward, I never said that. I said her thinking has the hallmarks of it and there are hints and whiffs of it from her.

Your actual first paragraph of the OP says:

The Atlantic has an essay out by an execrable woman named Honor (deeply ironic) Jones. I recommend reading it, though it may trigger some. It doesn't involve infidelity, but I think it is highly relevant here on SI because it does dissect -- from the standpoint of a wayward woman -- her navel-gazing motivations for leaving her marriage.

And yes I do judge her harshly and would anyone else making the same silly reasoning about why they divorced.

Thumos, I hold you in high esteem and you have every right to your feelings - but just saying - her reason for divorce seems silly TO YOU. My guess is that it is made up of a million 'little' things until something just tipped it because that's life. And also saying that when someone chooses the D route, even if the 'reason(s)' seem 'silly' or superficial or whatever to someone standing outside looking in, they are rarely silly or superficial to the person living in their own reality.

Cheating aside, my xh was not a 'bad' guy. Sure he was jobless, and an emotional cripple, and lacked basic adulting skills... but he wasn't some horrible monster of a person. But I can tell you for damn sure I would've hit my breaking point with him sooner or later for a LOT of reasons, some of which you've referred to as 'silly' on this thread. There would have come a tipping point, and it might have been finding one more fucking sock on the bathroom floor, or coming home to an unmade bed one last day, or him cooking and leaving all the dishes for me to do one last time, or any other number of 'trivial' things... that aren't trivial at all in the full-picture story of my M.

That's what I'm trying to say - I don't think this article was particularly well-written, but I DO think that there is probably the hell of a lot more to her decision to divorce other than cheerios and I don't think you're really seeing that at all. Maybe it's because you're still married, you decided to stay for your son (and I am throwing absolutely no shade on you for that Thumos dear - not the choice I would make, but I don't fault you for choosing it), and I am divorced that I can SEE that in a way you don't seem to be able to, but I can see it. Which is why I am not disgusted by this article like so many others appear to be.

The Eat, Pray, Love author did not have children. So what's the problem?

The cheater part, for me.

Which is why morality, ethics and law are correlated but not the same thing.

(in relation to the post that being unable to legally divorce on a no-fault basis would be dreadful).

[This message edited by straightup at 12:15 AM, Wednesday, January 5th]

I have never met someone whose spouse was divorcing them who believed that spouse to have "a good reason."

Oh for sure. Neither of my two ex-husbands thought that I should divorce them, but I could write a very convincing essay for why both marriages ended and it wasn't about cheerio dust. Crack addiction and prostitutes wasn't a convincing reason for my XWH, so I really don't know what would be. I'd not want anyone other than me to decide whether or not I had a good reason to divorce.

Where to start?
First, I guess I missed that part in the vows we took where I had an exit clause if my wife was not enhancing my life enough. Should have listened more closely, as I would have fled.
Women were no more subject to the drudgery of life than most men were/are. The vast majority of men grind out work, do their share of non_ occupational work in marriages, and like wives do, forgo pursuing their dreams. Most of us lack the talent to succeed in more glamorous, fun professions. And, even if talented enough, having the responsibility to provide for kids precludes taking a risk into a lot of endeavors. This applies to both genders.

Men are overrepresented in some top positions, like corporate executives and politicians but the number of men in these positions is such an incredibly small perceof the male population this has no relevance to the lives led by most men.
The medical and legal professions are being increasingly dominated by females. Coal mining and garbage collection, roofing have more men.

Where people get the idea that life is more fulfilling or exciting for men is beyond me.

I do not know why women initiate such a high % of divorces, as it seems to me that both genders have to deal with the downsides of marriage equally. Perhaps it has to do with the custody preference courts had bestowed on women, or, until recently, the prejudice against men recieving alimony.

And, where does one draw the line at having changed such that it justifies divorcing. Is it 32, as Dee mentioned? What happens if additional change takes place thereafter. Bail again? Say intermittently divorcing at 5- 10 year intervals cue to changing?
Maybe with the knowledge we all change, having kids should be delayed until we stabilize. As Thumos points out, the stats are pretty dramatic re the deleterious effect of divorce on kids.

I'm not talking about legal or statutory restraints Dee 😂

Posting this as a reminder:

GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.

This isn't pointed to anyone specifically at this point, but we're getting dangerously close. Speak to your situation or your opinion. Don't attempt to speak for everyone.

Of course men grew up with crushing expectations and whatever the phrase was. The pressures and expectations were different, perhaps, but no less demanding.
I bet we could go back and forth exchanging examples of the downsides specific to each gender. We could compete in the Victim Olympics to see which gender has it tougher.

Your actual first paragraph of the OP says:

Actually I meant to say "walkaway" a Divorce Busters term. Thanks for the catch. However I also think her tone of entitlement and self regard reflect strong similarities to wayward thinking.

Pretty sure my XWs, having been busted cheating, would concede I had good reason to divorce them. I know of many people whose cheating spouse would concede there was good reason for the divorce. Same applies to physicallly abusive spouses of either gender. Many concede they deserved it.
Non"enhancing" spouses, probably not.