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Hiking, I think that was a wonderful message.

I hope everyone understands that one is not at all like the other. Shame that’s imposed on you, especially when you’re very vulnerable, stays with you and controls how you feel about everything. You feel worthless and unimportant. You feel that no one loves you or should love you.

Guilt, on the other hand, is transitory. You’ve done something that hurt someone in some way, and you know that you did it, and so you feel bad about it. Anyone that’s married to someone who does not feel that is married to someone they should not be married to. You need someone in your life who can sympathize and empathize with any pain you have. If they can’t leave.

Disclosure - haven't read the entire thread.

My "short cut" is that shame is about the 'wrongdoer' (for lack of better term) and remorse is about the one who is hurt.

Example: I yell at my kid.

shame says: I'm an awful parent. I suck.

remorse says: Oh honey, I'm sorry. that must have been very scary and sad to be yelled at. How can I help you process those feelings?

IMO/IME, even if I come to my kid with remorse, I may still have to process my own shame, which I need to do on MY TIME and not my kid's (or the person I've hurt). Using above example, if I responded: Oh honey, I'm so sorry, I'm an ass... what can I do to help? I'm just dumping MY shame onto the person who I've already dumped on with my hurtful behavior. Or if I "explain" away my behavior, not so much remorse (unless, of course, my kid asks why the heck I'm yelling).

If interested in doing a deep dive into shame, read some Brene Brown. My suggestion is to start with a 6 or 8 (?) hour audio called The Power of Vulnerability, that I got from my local library via hoopla. I found it to be a great synthesis of her earlier books (which I'd read) and a good "jump off' place to see if/what one wants to dive into.

Disclosure - haven't read the entire thread.

My "short cut" is that shame is about the 'wrongdoer' (for lack of better term) and remorse is about the one who is hurt.

Example: I yell at my kid.

shame says: I'm an awful parent. I suck.

remorse says: Oh honey, I'm sorry. that must have been very scary and sad to be yelled at. How can I help you process those feelings?

IMO/IME, even if I come to my kid with remorse, I may still have to process my own shame, which I need to do on MY TIME and not my kid's (or the person I've hurt). Using above example, if I responded: Oh honey, I'm so sorry, I'm an ass... what can I do to help? I'm just dumping MY shame onto the person who I've already dumped on with my hurtful behavior. Or if I "explain" away my behavior, not so much remorse (unless, of course, my kid asks why the heck I'm yelling).

If interested in doing a deep dive into shame, read some Brene Brown. My suggestion is to start with a 6 or 8 (?) hour audio called The Power of Vulnerability, that I got from my local library via hoopla. I found it to be a great synthesis of her earlier books (which I'd read) and a good "jump off' place to see if/what one wants to dive into.

I would second the Brene Brown suggestion. Also, her book "Rising Strong" illuminated a lot for me about how shame was effecting my thoughts and therefore my behaviors. It was a big "click" for me and helped me develop more consciousness over it.

Oh and waited too long- thank you. I really do agree with you. I think often when shame gets discussed by ws here it’s usually the core shame that we are referring to. So that can be confusing. But absolutely, someone having a conscience over something they did to someone that was so bad it changed the foundation of their lives- that is a healthy and needed reaction.

The reason it’s bigger though is it just overflows the big pit of core shame we were already carrying around and that pit is often one of the big whys of the affair in the first place. Someone who values themselves can’t do what your wife or I did. Good to see you, hope you are well.

IMO, it's probably always core shame. That's the only explanation I can think of for BSes' shame when we find out we've been betrayed.

The core shame comes out whenever it can.

IMO, it's probably always core shame. That's the only explanation I can think of for BSes' shame when we find out we've been betrayed.

I have to disagree with this. Prior to the affair as I stated I had things I had done that I was ashamed of. I don’t think I had any core shame. If anything I had an inflated sense of ego. After the affair, I had internal shame that my wife could do this horrible thing to me, yet I stuffed it down and took it. That was so far from my core belief that if someone betrays you they need to pay at some level. Yet here I was still in a marriage and she was unscathed, and got to have her fun. (Took me awhile to realize she was destroyed too, but that came much later)

I thought about how I got fucked over every day, and was ashamed that a guy like me could be so had. Especially when I compared myself to her AP. That’s why I was a willing partner in keeping her secret for so long. Core shame had nothing to do with the shame I felt. It was all situational.

Core shame seems to operate in most WS, and their reactions can be to wallow in shame (stuck in self-pity) or move toward a healthier relationship with one's self by accepting you have done something shameful and hurtful and making amends as much as possible (remorse).

BS shame is a different battle. If you accept society's or your own internalized view that it is shameful to "allow" this to happen to you, then you want to run from the shame [correct it, eliminate it] by divorcing or lashing out at the WS or AP. (This is not the only reason to divorce of course, but it is the #1 reason that BS divorce an apparently remorseful WS. Says me. Too much shame to the ego. Says me.)

I thought about how I got fucked over every day, and was ashamed that a guy like me could be so had.

This ^^^ is shame. But it is wrong to feel the shame because you did nothing and cannot control what people do TO you. This idea of "being had" is allowing society to dictate what you should be ashamed about when you had done nothing wrong. You also feel that your identity is dictated by what you allow. Says who? Who says you are less than if something bad happens to you? Don't you decide what you believe about your own self, good or bad?

That's the only explanation I can think of for BSes' shame when we find out we've been betrayed.

And that feeling of being defined by what's been done TO YOU is exactly what this ^^^ means. When you ACCEPT shame incorrectly, feel shame when you have done nothing wrong, then where is that shame coming from? What is causing it? What makes anyone believe they should never "be had"? Or that they are unlovable? Or unworthy? Or not man enough? Or whatever other shaming thoughts go through our minds?

A BS always reacts to shame in their recovery (says me).

To stay in our M (if and only if the WS is truly remorseful) and face the incorrect, untrue, but overwhelming feelings of shame we feel for staying is a very tough road that only the toughest can handle (says me, my opinion). This is where the BS's most difficult work lies--facing down the shame that overwhelms us instead of lashing out in anger or running away in avoidance. We have to own it and work through it. If we D, we still need to work on our shame to recover, but the shame is usually for the failed marriage then. Wrongly! Because there should be no shame in that either. But we feel it so have to work through it.

BS shame is a different battle. If you accept society's or your own internalized view that it is shameful to "allow" this to happen to you, then you want to run from the shame [correct it, eliminate it] by divorcing or lashing out at the WS or AP. (This is not the only reason to divorce of course, but it is the #1 reason that BS divorce an apparently remorseful WS. Says me. Too much shame to the ego. Says me.)

I agree with this. May not be number 1, but definitely a huge contributing factor at least in my case.

But it is wrong to feel the shame because you did nothing and cannot control what people do TO you. This idea of "being had" is allowing society to dictate what you should be ashamed about when you had done nothing wrong

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This is great in theory, but much harder in practice. I think part of the shame is that it happened, but more of the shame is due to the fact the BS has to swallow their pride and accept that they got screwed. I had plenty of people do shitty things to me. Guess what. They paid for it. Yet what are you supposed to do with a spouse that is semi suicidal over their actions. The playbook of screwing them back goes by the wayside.

I’ve never been a victim of domestic abuse, but I imagine it’s a similar feeling. A man or woman gets beaten, then the abuser falls all over themselves begging for forgiveness. The spouse stays, but has the shame of the abuse, even if it were just one time, that they have to live with. Letting someone beat them, then not fighting back and accepting. Even if the abuser gets help, the shame has to follow you around. Add in the dynamic of where the one abused starts questioning if they deserved it. We know that NO ONE ever deserves abuse, but yet it sticks in their mind

Same with a BS. Maybe if I satisfied her or him better sexually, a guy wishing he were bigger or a woman felling her body wasn’t as good as the AP. We know in 99% of the cases and probably 100% of the cases with a remorseful WS these didn’t come into play. Yet the mind goes there.

Back to the original question or my thought. This type of shame is debilitating for a BS and needs to be worked through. As for the second point. The WS that was responsible for the actions in the first place should feel shame. Not necessarily that they are bad. But definitely what the did was bad and shameful.