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I keep having people tell me that my husband is acting like he has a lot of shame and not remorse on this group. I remember when we did counseling 8 years ago after my husband's first EA the counselor said to us that she had never seen someone with so much shame- was talking to my husband. I had forgotten about that. At that time we just could not afford the counseling that he needed individually so we did some couples counseling, but the therapist kept telling us something along the lines of I chose my husband knowing that he would blow up a part of me that needed to be fixed or something like that. We both thought that was BS so we stopped. We are in a very different place financially now and can afford counseling. I'm going to find couples counseling for after the holidays and my husband suggested the other day that maybe he needs counseling. I have been thinking that for a while. Then of course he says, but I'm not really worth the money it will cost. Anyways, if someone can articulate the difference between shame and remorse and how that looks in a WS I'd love to know so that I can articulate that to him and so that I can understand myself. Thanks!!

I'm far from an expert, but IMO shame is what someone feels toward themselves for something they knew they did wrong, self awareness.

Remorse to me is an outward sign that the individual completely understands the damage done and is truly sorry, doing everything possible to lessen the pain, more focused on the person they hurt rather than themselves.

My W says she didn't begin to feel remorse for at least 5 months after d-day (12 years ago yesterday!). Actions are more important than words - my W started doing the right things from the moment she revealed her A.

Your H cheats because of his own issues. IMO, he probably cheated to avoid dealing with his own pain. That's his work, and he's unlikely to do it in CC, because he's the problem, and CC treats your M as the problem.

So, yes, I think individual therapy for him is a great idea, if one of his goals is to change from cheater to good partner.

*****

I'm in the group that believes serial cheaters can become good partners, if they do the necessary work on themselves. Some people believe serial cheaters are un-redeemable, but they can't account for the numerous former serial cheaters who have been (some still are) active on SI.

*****

How did you interpret the MC's comment about why you picked your H?

In case you think the therapist was blaming you...:

I think that most people couple up because of both healthy and unhealthy characteristics. The healthy parts complement each other, and so do the unhealthy parts - for a couple to work over the long term, the neuroses of each individual member of the couple have to be compatible with each other. No one is perfect, after all.

I wouldn't be surprised if you had some low level (at least) of awareness that this could happen. But 'could' is a lot different from 'will'. Your H cheated because of his own issues. My bet is that you knew relationships can break apart before you coupled up. I expect you know you took a risk, as we all do. But your H cheated because of his own issues - you did nothing to cause him to cheat, and you bear no responsibility for his A(s).

ETA: the appearance of shame, guilt, remorse ... appearances don't matter as much as the WS's external actions and internal processes.

Any response that leads the WS to decide to change from cheater to good partner is beneficial to everyone the changed WS deals with. Amy hindrance to the change hurts the WS and those around them.

We have to watch actions - does the WS start telling the truth about the A and about everything else that comes up? Does the WS hold back from confronting themself with their actions and the impacts of their actions? Does the WS start meeting their commitments consistently? Does the WS actually change? Does the WS start to recognize their motivations, both sick and healthy, and does the WS start switching from doing the unhealthy stuff with healthy stuff?

I don't know what words you need to be able to distinguish between a WS who will change from a WS who won't, but that's the $64 question. ('The $64 Question' is, I believe, the radio show that was turned into a scandal by the TV show called 'The $64,000 Question' that I think almost everyone knows about today. )

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:44 PM, Saturday, December 24th]

There's a great thread pinned to the top of the Reconciliation forum called "Beyond Regret and Remorse."

IC for BOTH of you is a great idea. Don't overlook your own needs! Marriage counseling so close to discovery- not so much. MC practitioners often employ the "unmet needs" approach. Maybe former MC was working with the Unmet Needs model when they proposed that theory about why you chose H? Unmet Needs may tell BS to accept part of the blame for the cheater's betrayals because the cheater had "needs" that weren't met in the marriage. MC often views the marriage as the client. The marriage didn't lie and cheat - he did. Nothing you did or didn't do caused him to cheat - you bear no responsibility for his choices. The betrayals are 100 percent on him. If you do successfully reconcile MC could be part of reconciliation - eventually. But not now. IMO.

AND---You're reeling from the betrayal right now. Is he still trickle truthing you? The last thing you need is MC trust and validation exercises with a un-remorseful cheater! You need IC just for YOU to focus on your own needs and what you want from the marriage- to focus on your recovery from infidelity. His shame - and why he chose to betray the marriage- are HIS issues to explore with HIS IC.

Do take a look at the "Beyond Regret and Remorse" thread at the top of Reconciliation Forum. Plug the title "Remorse? Or Genuine Imitation Naugahyde Remorse?" into your search engine for another interesting highly personal perspective on what true remorse looks like.

ETA:

For me, H's true remorse was tied to his actions, not his words. Lucky for him, 'cause in the days immediately following D-day all too often his words were full of minimizations, DARVO, and false equivalencies. His saving grace was doing the right things (after he woke up and faced reality), even though his words and actions didn't always mesh. Actions that felt the most meaningful were his choice - not done under duress in response to reconciliation demands. And he did these things knowing reconciliation was a gamble. I was seriously ready to D him and he knew it! Without these independent actions demonstrating remorse OVER TIME we wouldn't still be together - my signature tagline would read "divorced" rather than "reconciled."

You asked "what that looks like in a WS." Here's a few examples how he showed remorse in the immediate D-Day aftermath:

He immediately got tested for STIs and shared the results with me.

He drove our car (I was a mess - couldn't focus) and went with me into the office waiting room for all my post D-day medical appointments - to support me while I sought help recovering from his choices.

He grocery shopped, prepared dinners and kept the house tidy without input from me - for weeks. I was working full time during a stressful transition period at work, on top of struggling emotionally and physically with his betrayal. He handled everything without being asked. This helpfulness didn't disappear after reconciliation. Years later he still participates equally around the house.

He deleted ALL his social media accounts - and hasn't been back on SM since. He knew I'd hacked into all of them and seen what there was to see, so this wasn't done to cover his tracks. He did it to help me feel safe.

He didn't fling unrealistic (therefore conveniently un-keepable) promises at me to see if a ridiculous promise he obviously couldn't be held accountable to would placate me (e.g., I'll be your servant until the day I die). He offered to work towards realistic outcomes. He was willing to be held accountable for those measurable, realistic outcomes.

He didn't play the self-pity card to work my sympathy (e.g., You'd be better off if I died). He didn't push back about being in the dog house by feeling sorry for himself - no pity parties. MY pain came first.

He eventually (after pathetically predictable trickle truth about how often the PA went down and exactly when he stopped texting OW) took responsibility for his choices. Without equivocation. TBH, took a while for him to reach this Ah-Hah! realization.

Jendo, I share this not to say how awesome and introspective my H is, or to hold him up as a reconciliation mensch. 'Cause he certainly is not! He's a flawed individual (aren't we all :-) who was willing to look at his own crap and face what he did to me, and take ownership that HE destroyed our old marriage.........he was remorseful.

You're asking about remorse, and looking into MC, so you're reaching for reconciliation-correct? IMO if he is remorseful, you shouldn't have to "articulate to him" what that looks like! He should come to that place on his own, without presenting a "here's what remorseful spouses do" checklist. If he's serious about saving your marriage, the first step is to tell the truth about everything you want to know. Then he should willingly dedicate himself to doing whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, to heal you and the marriage, while digging deep to face his own demons. You could ask him to read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" and see how that goes. Watch for remorse and meaningful change OVER TIME. Sure, he could fake it for a while after reading that book. But if he's faking it, eventually the truth will out. R is hard work. Some WS aren't up for the task, even though they promise the moon to their BS. Remember, reconciliation is a precious gift (not his right!) - not to be given lightly to a repeat offender. And both partners need to be ALL IN 100% for true reconciliation to work. Jendo, you can't singlehandedly save the marriage! In the meantime, take care of YOU and get the support YOU need with your own IC.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 5:26 AM, Monday, December 26th]

Hi- I am the original ws in our marriage but my husband had an affair after that too. So I have both experienced this as the ws and the bs.

Shame is a common theme for ws. It’s a lot about how they feel about what they did. The shame is a hindrance to healing. We self punish, self deprecate, can’t take in your feelings very far at all other than how we feel about them.

Shame is hard to get through because it accumulates. It’s often a state of being since childhood. Shame runs, deflects, doesn’t have true accountability over anything beyond the basic "I am bad"

Remorse is having a full (or as full as one can have) of an understanding as to what we did to our partner and our marriage. Remorse doesn’t run, it sits with you, comforts you. Remorse is curious and asked questions, wants to make true repairs and not just on their own terms.

Like sisson stated, I didn’t have remorse for a long time - I am going to pin it at 7-8 months. I did make the steps I knew were right, but I think it’s difficult for most people to pose as remorseful. But I did put myself in counseling, I confessed in my own. I did what I was capable of doing, but I had a hard time facing what I did and why.

Remorse can coexist with shame but the overwhelming part of it has to be dealt with first. That doesn’t mean they don’t change their behaviors, I worked hard in that from day one, but know the ws is very screwed up walking out of that affair.

Remorseful spouses ask questions, being up the affair, try and make amends, work on themselves and make true lasting changes. Until then there will be in most cases some confusion and callousness that will show up. Callousness is part of the numbing we do in order to cope. We often have a very bad coping strategy if any in place.

Shame looks in. Remorse looks out.

Shame: I'm a piece of crap. I'm unloveable. I feel bad that I screwed up.

Remorse: I'm sorry that I hurt you. I'm sorry that my actions made you feel _________.

Shame is all about them. Remorse is about understanding how YOU feel.

What Ellie K said, also remorse is demonstrated w/ actions, and willingness to support you, help you. Regret is less active and more wallowing.

Shame shuts you down. It says things like, "I already hate myself, so what do you want from me?" Shame assumes there is nothing redeemable, nothing fixable. "Poor me. I'm a horrible person." It's a pity party.

Remorse opens up, it's generous. Remorse says, "I've done a terrible thing. I will learn and grow. I am open to hearing what needs to be done without being defensive. I will think of your needs and work to regain your faith in me." And then they DO it. It's not all talk! (This is why remorse takes TIME to prove. It can't happen in a week or a month.) A truly remorseful person does not deteriorate into shame when the subject comes up or when the BS gets emotional.

People can fake remorse for long periods of time but not forever. True remorse though is permanent. There is no "get over it" time limit (although I have seen some situations where the BS is not working on their own healing and is abusive for years. There are limits to what even a wayward should tolerate. Some situations turn toxic).

Showing your remorse and dedication to change is long, arduous work. Reconciliation is not for those who struggle to look inward, and unfortunately, that's often a wayward's character trait. "Doesn't want to look at the internal struggle. Would rather escape into false ego kibbles" or "Can't accept blame." Can some waywards look inward and do the work? Absolutely. But it is a much smaller number than those who CLAIM they will change and do the work. There are a lot of false promises out there. Only time will tell. In my view, more marriages survive due to betrayed spouses accepting too little in R than marriages lasting due to wayward spouses actually doing all that's required. But it does happen.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:09 PM, Friday, December 23rd]

Shame does nothing but wallow and whine.

Remorse knows that words are meaningless and only actions matter.

Shame - I feel bad I got caught. But I will not do anything about it.

Remorse - I plan to do something to make up for what I did.

Shame: Is about ME. It is about how I see myself and my own value, and about how others see me as well. I may or may not feel bad about what I did but I see myself labeled as a bad person for doing it, and need myself and others to feel sorry for ME. Shame labels me as a bad person, it is my identity.

Remorse: Is about YOU. I see how my actions and decisions affected YOU, and I acknowledge my part and responsibility in your outcome. I may or may not feel shame about what I did, but I do feel responsible and have a need/desire to make things right if possible. Remorse means I did a bad thing. Whether or not I am a good or bad person depends on how I respond.

Shame can often spiral. It is a pit, it is selfish, and it's hard to get out of. It feels like remorse to the person in shame, but it feels empty to the other person.

Remorse leads to action (usually). It is the beginning of a journey. Remorse is often more about who we can be than who we are.

Shame is a dead end.
Remorse is an open door.

I've seen a good description of both that simply says this:

'Shame is what they feel thinking about what others may think of their actions.

Guilt/remorse is when they consider the effect their actions had on the person they actually hurt.'

I have a bit of a different take on this. I think feeling shame for a shameful act is perfectly ok.

I had a couple of instances in my youth that taught me this lesson. One was when I was very young. Like six years old when I made a racially inappropriately remark to a classmate. I was just repeating what I heard from the older guys and really had no idea what the word meant or the hurt it caused. Still no excuse. Well my parents found out about it and marched me to this boys house and had me apologize. 60 years later I still feel the shame of that day. As I should. I will add that this other boy and I became fast friends.

I agree that shame is not enough, and you need to get to remorse,but I don’t think that remorse can happen without the feelings of shame. What is the alternative? Feeling good about having sex with your AP? Feeling nothing about sex with your AP? You did a shameful thing and should feel shame.

That said, it shouldn’t paralyze you from moving forward. I think we see so many repeat offenders, even after years, as they saw no consequence and didn’t feel enough shame.

If the shame is part of a learning experience, nothing wrong with it

Waitedwaytoolong, I agree with you that shame is an emotion that gets a bad rap. Shame is necessary for remorse to even be possible… but shame on it’s own does nothing without the requisite action to make amends, which is the defining characteristic of remorse.

More often than not, cheaters use the excuse that they are "crippled by shame" to avoid uncomfortable conversations with their betrayed spouses and actually DO something that would help their spouse heal.

Shame is necessary for remorse to even be possible… but shame on it’s own does nothing without the requisite action to make amends, which is the defining characteristic of remorse.

I totally agree with this. My point was those who thought that not having shame for their actions was ok smacks of Ester Perel. You can’t just let it be the only thing you feel, but if my EX had ever told me she felt good, or even felt nothing about what she did, it would have been game over on the spot

Guilt is self inflicted. It means you have a conscience and you feel badly that you hurt someone emotionally or mentally or financially or whatever. It means you know you did wrong and you were sorry for it.

Shame is what’s inflicted on you. Usually by people that are important to you. Many time it is parents so the feeling of worthlessness goes bone deep and it is a nasty thing to do to a kid. It takes a lot of digging to get to the core of it. I always suggest anyone who is that Shame-based to get some thing like EMDR because you need to go way deep.

In the US, we've been more focused on guilt than on shame historically. I suspect Sylvan Tomkins's work has upped the awareness of shame.

What matters IMO, as wwtl emphasizes, is what the WS does with their feelings. Using shame or guilt as a defense against talking about the A or making gut-level change is a way to avoid taking responsibility and healing, and it just adds to the BS's pain. OTOH, using feelings as a defense against change should make the BS's choice a bit easier, if the BS is in a sitch in which they can kick the WS out.

Both shame and guilt (and probably others sensations as well) can lead to changing from cheater to good partner. The key factor is what the WS chooses to do their feelings and thoughts.

Some WSes do the work; some don't.

It's important for newbies to note that they can't really R unless their WS changes into a good partner - but they don't have to R even if the WS does change.

I do not disagree with waited too long. But I want to add a couple of thoughts.

One, as a ws I had an unhealthy relationship with shame. Shame is not as simple as guilt. It’s not about just feeling bad about what we did or as simple as thinking how others will think about what we did.

Shame for me was I am bad. Inherently bad. Unworthy. It’s a feeling I carried since being sexually abused clear back in the early 80’s.

Anytime I have done anything wrong whether accidentally or willfully shame was exponentially worse because it was proof of that inner belief that I am bad or dirty or whatever. Think of that as core shame for the sake of this thread even though I am not sure that’s a real term.

Feeling shame and guilt (shame is about us being bad, guilt is about a bad behavior) is important, I don’t disagree. Ws often need that rock bottom to get their resolve to get their shit together.

However, when I talk about shame now, nearly six years into working on myself, I would tell you that healing that core shame was paramount for recovery.

My core shame kept me hiding, playing small, people pleasing. Healing that core shame makes me be able to face the things I did and why.

I had to learn that my happiness was important too and I needed to learn what things made me happy and do them. What things I needed from Him so I could communicate that too. Instead of doing that, I sacrificed way too much and then told myself I was entitled to have something for me. If I had been looking at how I can be happy and deserve to be happy I never would have fallen into that line of thinking.

I felt I didn’t deserve much. That it was my role to make sure I was keeping him instead. This formed a wall of resentments towards him. Seeing that those were my expectations and not his made me see I had been the biggest fool.

It’s not about feeling shame over the affair. Sure, that’s shame worthy, and deserving. It’s that long term relationship with core shame that makes it hard to face your partner because it feels like everything is culminating to have everyone finally see what I already knee- that I was bad and unworthy.

By being able to work through that it opened me up to be able to take in what I did to him (this being the remorse piece) Remorse is productive, shame blocks moving forward. Shame would not allow me to sit with him and ask for more information about how he was feeling, or to gain the empathy to comfort and apologize. It is a big part of being defensive, closed off, more lies, more minimizing, etc.

We have to feel badly about what we did or we would have no reason to change. But change requires dealing with feelings of unworthiness and core shame so that we can learn to love ourselves. If we love ourselves we can possibly love others. Core shame didn’t allow me to feel loved fully because I didn’t feel worthy of it. Shame kept me from being vulnerable.from communicating. It eventually led to resentment and escapism.

This is not to excuse cheating, or for sympathy for me or any other person who cheated. This post is about recovery, and when we advise ws to look at shame that is why. It will never get better so long as you are stuck there. It doesn’t help the ws or the bs. It’s useless and usually counterproductive. It keeps the ws thinking about themselves and how they feel. And navel gazing isn’t going to be something that is attractive to a bs long term either.

Those of us ws who want to reconcile have to understand that we are asking for our bs to fall in love with us after we have completely burned down their entire world. They already fell in love and were traumatized by that version of us.

Saying pretty words or buying gifts is not going to fix that. They need to see someone who is behaving differently in many aspects of their lives, they need to see someone who is different. We will always be who we are but they need to see a much improved version. The trust has to be rebuilt first and that is a hard road to take without having remorse. Shame isn’t going to help that.

A safe ws isn’t just someone who no longer cheats, it’s someone who has gone through and modified the structures that made them seek that behavior in the first place.

I can love myself and feel remorse over something I did. Remorse is helpful to keep me checking in with myself and him. I do still hate what I did. It took making amends, therapy, discussing here, lots of practicing (failing and succeeding) and getting a long stable history of having those new behaviors to work through a lot of that shame. Holding your head up requires you actually move forward in a new way and that can’t happen at the same time you are holding into the deep rooted, usually somewhat unconscious idea that you are bad and unworthy.

So shame is only helpful in the beginning. Then it becomes about tearing that down and putting something new in its place that you can feel proud of. Worthy of love. Worthy of happiness. And in turn that creates a life where escapism and your other coping mechanisms like it can be put away.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:39 AM, Wednesday, December 28th]

Hiking, this was a great clarification and expanded ideas on shame. I agree with all of it. Shame can be debilitating. It’s even worse when the shame is created from not within, but by outside forces. Like the shame a victim of SA, or domestic violence. Though these people truly do have nothing to be shameful for, those words are easy to say, but the thoughts very difficult to come to terms with. It has to take a tremendous amount of work to live with this. The hope obviously is that at best case it goes away, or at least is under enough control that it doesn’t ruin one’s life.

My post was about the shame one feels for doing wrong and hurting others. Any person with a conscience has to feel shame for acts they have done. I definitely feel shame for how I treated my EX. Deep down I know she is a good person who did a very bad thing. Yet when I heard her cry, or knew that all she wanted from me was a simple hug and tell her I loved her I couldn’t do it. It’s no secret that the feelings I had about my actions made me feel terrible. Clearly due to my shame at the time.

Anyway. Thanks for the thoughtful reply and I am with you on this