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I confronted my wife about her 18-month affair two weeks ago, and we had another talk about the issue on Friday. She says she is sorry, asks questions about how I'm feeling, and doesn't get defensive when I release my anger. But honestly, it doesn't seem as if anything has changed. In fact, she seems like she's irritated with me, being short at times. I'm not sure what I'm expecting though, so I guess that's the point of the topic.

What does remorse look like to you? What did you see from your WS? Was the remorse they showed ever enough for you?

For some guidance, take a look at https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/324250/things-that-every-ws-needs-to-know/.

Best get yourself into the healing lounge and I suggest you read all the 'articles' - take what you need and leave the rest!'.

Here's an example - https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/recovery/guilt-vs-remorse/

When I confronted / followed up - I actually gave a couple of the relevant hard copies to my wife, unfortunately she didn't really 'get it' and even shared the details with a family member, who just thought it was all 'victim mindset'. I knew then reconciliation was not going to really happen - use the article above to guide you plus I would also use the 'what every wayward spouse needs to know! Look into counseling, Individual and eventually marital. The Healing Lounge is a powerful resource - use it wisely!!

Your wife may react out of fear when you bring up the affair. She may panic and it may be perceived as annoyance on her part.

But you know her best.

I offer that remorse means accepting the situation because the cheater caused it yet still doing everything possible yo make amends. Every. Darn. Day. If your cheating spouse has stopped making amends or an effort, she’s not doing all she can.

Too many cheaters just want to return to the marriage pre-affair. As BS we know that don’t happen.

I know my H had NO remorse after his first EA. He had NO remorse after dday1 of his second affair. However when I finally had enough and told him I was D him, he had enough remorse to get me to not start the Divorce proceedings immediately.

And I continued to see his efforts. Every day.

It’s 9 years now since his last affair. He’s made many changes. But if I ever me Tim the affair it’s met with apologies AND understanding. Not anger. Not annoyance.

Hi HanginginThere! Welcome to SI. I'm sorry you're hurting.

I'm a bit confused by your timeline. When you posted back in November, you had proof of your wife's A but had not yet confronted and were working up the courage to do so. Are you suggesting that the first real confrontation was two weeks ago? How did it go? Did your wife admit to the A? Did she minimize/deflect/blameshift? Two weeks out is still incredibly early to assess whether she is remorseful or not. At two weeks out, she is still probably pretty confused herself -it's probably best to watch her actions at this time rather than her words. Anyone can "act" remorseful for a short period of time, but two weeks is basically nothing in the long run. Has she gone no contact with the AP? Is she open and honest when answering your questions? Those are good starts but it is far too early to assess whether she is a good candidate for R at this point. As for the other things you should be watching for, there is a really good post called "Beyond Regret and Remorse" pinned to the top of the Reconciliation forum that I recommend you read, if you have not done so already.

I'm somewhat concerned by your suggesting that she's being short with you. While i have no doubt that the emotional aftermath of D-day can be incredibly stressful on the Wayward as well, and it is somewhat natural to want to shut down or become defensive when someone is attacking you, that should not be her go-to if she wants to R. To this end, and particularly given your previous reservations about confrontation, I'm also concerned by your comment that you confronted her two weeks ago and then spoke about it again on Friday. I appreciate you guys have kids and jobs and lives and commitments but especially in the immediately aftermath of D-day this is not the kind of conversation you have once a week. It's normal for it to be the topic of every communication and conversation between you. As a new BS, I imagine you can hardly go 15 minutes without thinking about it. If she's shutting down or limiting conversations to avoid having them, that is not a good sign.

I hope some or any of this is helpful. Keep posting - this is so incredibly difficult and its useful to have the insight of others to help you though. How are YOU holding up through it all?

Check out the links provided to you - there is quite a bit written on this topic here at SI.

Also, there are some wayward's here that have done the work and are reconciling with their spouses. I believe every single one of these waywards said it took time to come to remorse. There was guilt and regret perhaps quickly but actual remorse took some time.

It's possible but not likely your wife would be there this early on. Her first reaction is likely about how to protect herself and /or control the outcome. She will feel fear, anxiety, confusion, defensiveness, etc along with some guilt or regret. Until she works her way through those emotions and makes a decision to own her actions and really look at the consequences of that (your pain), she won't get to remorse. Remorse is focused on YOU, not her.

Yikes! When I posted above, I forgot about the best single source for answering your question: https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/586809/beyond-regret-and-remorse/. It's pinned in the R forum.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:09 PM, Tuesday, January 31st]

This is all very helpful, everyone. Thank you.

From what people are saying, it may be that I am expecting too much at this point, that she's in the shocked and stunned phase since it's only been two weeks for her, while I've lived with this for a long time.

To clarify, I finally confronted my wife with the evidence in mid-January. I got over my fear of telling her I'd snooped, and wouldn't let her divert the conversation. I was proud of staying focused and strong, making it clear what I knew and that it was completely unacceptable. At first, I think she was focused on how I knew (the snooping), then a couple of hours later apologized for what she'd done. I gave her two options: divorce or reconcile, which would mean therapy and her leaving her job. It was a lot to throw on her at once, and we agreed to reconvene to talk again soon when she'd worked it out. She also saw a therapist in that time.

My issue at the time, and still, is I don't see any real regret. She's said she's sorry, but mostly she doesn't want to talk. When she is home, she's off reading. I'm not sure what I'm expecting...sobbing and begging would be a start...but have seen none of that.

On Friday, we met to talk and she said she wanted to try to work it out. I mentioned marriage therapy, and she said that would be too much right now because she's just starting individual therapy. My therapist yesterday explained this is a bullshit excuse, and no, we're to to MC. We are both reading Healing from Infidelity. I ordered How to Help Your Spouse Heal from the Affair, and her response was that it felt like I was shaming her and giving her homework. Which I am, duh. That defensiveness is very 'her'. She sees this as me having and wanting leverage, but that isn't me.

She still works with AP (I don't see how this actually ever ends), and she's told him I know. He's now terrified I'm going to tell his spouse, who has a borderline personality disorder, and his fear makes me giddy.

I guess I'm not sure what I should be looking for or even asking for. If you asked me what remorse from her would look like, I don't think I know. That's probably what I was hoping for by posting...what other people wanted/saw that made them say, okay, my WS gets it.

Hi, you need to inform his spouse IMO. She is living a lie and her health may be at risk.

Here's what my WH did after D-Day (although he trickle truthed me to death.)

Dumped AP on D-Day. His AP was also a co-worker but fortunately worked on the opposite coast.

Started looking for another job immediately. He understand he could no longer perform his responsibilities to the best of his ability, and there was no way I'd tolerate him ever visiting her site again, which he had to do about 3 times a year.

Gave me access to his phone AND his company phone AND his work emails.

I requested he provide me with his phone bills for several months prior to me discovering the A, he did so without much hesitation.

He pretty much stopped traveling (he generally traveled every other week). When he did travel, I accompanied him (and boy did I witness so many colleagues crossing boundaries).

Initially he placed some of the blame on me, I shut that down immediately.

Never ever got defensive even when I asked the same questions over and over and over.

Stopped socializing on the job when women were involved.

Never again did he have a one-on-one meeting with a female colleague.

Kept all female co-workers at a distance, cordial but always professional.

Gave up the sport he had been involved in since he was a child (37 years of his passion down the drain) to focus on the marriage and the family.

Read articles that I provided for him.

Found another job at about 8 months after D-Day. Held himself to the same standards in his new position.

He did trickle me to death and pretty much never started the conversations, but other than that he did everything I needed to feel safe. Took me years.

As an added note, the spouse of his AP, who also worked at the same company, found out about their emotional affair before it became physical. Confronted them both, they convinced him they would stop. Other BS forgot to send me the memo, and several weeks later his wife met my husband at his hotel. Had he informed me of what he found, my husband would never ever have traveled to her site.

I contacted the OW several times after D-Day. I threatened to tell her husband about the affair if she didn't. She knew I meant business, and she did tell him.

The point is he did pretty much everything I asked of him without complaint.

[This message edited by annb at 5:50 PM, Tuesday, January 31st]

Google "Real Remorse? Or Genuine Imitation Naugahyde Remorse?"

I second Bluer’s reco above ^^, plus the others.

Remorse looks like someone reaching out for you, at their own peril, and pulling you out of the pit of hell they put you in.

For me, true remorse:

Takes responsibility, is non-defensive, proactive, takes initiative, is consistent, dedicated, hopeful, makes sacrifices, non-defensive, empathetic, honest, lovingly patient and only gives up if the BS is unresponsive and showing no signs of improvement.

Are my expectations realistic? Would my ideal WS have to be an all-knowing saintly superhuman?

It’s hard for a WS to repair themselves, you, and the marriage, all at the same time, right out of the gates. Keep that in mind. Keep your expectations realistic. Even The Most remorseful WS is going to muck it up in the beginning and on occasion but…the ideal WS learns from their mistakes, and keeps trying.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 10:05 PM, Tuesday, January 31st]

My issue at the time, and still, is I don't see any real regret. She's said she's sorry, but mostly she doesn't want to talk. When she is home, she's off reading. I'm not sure what I'm expecting...sobbing and begging would be a start...but have seen none of that.

She won't sob and beg because it isn't real to her. There have been zero consequences except a husband that is upset. She is being allowed to wallow in her confusion and shock.

WS have to hit rock bottom and most of them don't until the betrayed delivers it.

If she still works with AP, she is still in an affair with the AP. Even if it's just someone to talk to and commiserate with during this time. It actually serves to bond them further - discussing their fears together, feeling like it's them against the world.

Assume that is going on. Assume she is in an active affair and on top of that is using this time - your confusion and shock - "to figure things out."

How does that make you feel? You are in a triad of a marriage. Does that feel good to you? If no, then what steps are you going to take to end the triad. The only thing you control is YOU.

Read up on the 180. This is for YOU to create some space and distance so you stop getting hurt. I swear on all that is holy that if you continue to play the role of husband whilst she indulges in her own feelings, that will hurt reconcilliation almost more than the affair.

The 180 is about focusing on you and your needs. It helps you stop enabling your wayward spouse from having you and her AP. It forces her to realize that this is fucking serious and she will lose everything if she doesn't realize that right now and get her shit together.

Practical advise:

Notify OBS (other betrayed spouse). It's the right thing to do and as a bonus, her AP will be busy dealing with his own shit.

Stop being a "husband." Finances are one thing but whatever else it is you do for her just stop.

Focus on you. Your feelings, your needs. Get out, exercise, hang with friends, focus on work and hobbies. This reminds you that you have a full life with or without your spouse. It gives you time/space where you aren't feeling less than.

Stop focusing on her and how she feels. You are the wronged party here. She should be focused on you. If she isn't, no matter, YOU WILL FOCUS ON YOU.

Who said his wife had BPD? Your wife? The OM? They're both liars. Regardless, of course she has to be told. Call her immediately. He wasn't too concerned when he was having sex with your wife. As long as you don't tell,you're allowing them to manipulate you into keeping their secrets. Right now, you're helping him.

It's unfortunate that your wife is on this site. A freshly caught WS on this site makes it harder to determine remorse. Because they learn how to act,and you don't know if it's genuine.

Except she isn't even acting remorseful.

She's not in a shocked and stunned phase. She knew she was cheating.

She needs to leave her job.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:40 PM, Tuesday, January 31st]

"What Does True Remorse Look Like?"

Well I can for darn sure tell you what it doesn't look like.

In fact, she seems like she's irritated with me, being short at times.

She's said she's sorry, but mostly she doesn't want to talk.

When she is home, she's off reading.

Reading what?

I ordered How to Help Your Spouse Heal from the Affair, and her response was that it felt like I was shaming her and giving her homework.

One, she should have ordered it. Two, a remorseful-wanting-to-fix-things spouse would be reading anything they could get their eyeballs on to figure out what to do.

She still works with AP (I don't see how this actually ever ends), and she's told him I know.

If she's still working with him, she's still in an affair. If she's still talking with him, she's still in an affair. If she's protecting him in any way, she's still in an affair.

Just my 0.02, but she ain't 'getting it' yet. Nowhere even close.

Your wife is but giving you much to work with.

You are trying to R with someone who has shown you she’s not interested in doing anything for you, only doing something that benefits her.

She doesn’t seem to engage with you

She won’t talk about the affair

She is resentful of a book that could help you heal

This seems like a one sided marriage if you ask me

For me remorse would have looked like leaving the people places and things that contributed to wh's affair and him gaining empathy. Publicly committing to me and the marriage. And publicly apologizing to the people he trash talked me to.

HIT25,

I mentioned marriage therapy, and she said that would be too much right now because she's just starting individual therapy. My therapist yesterday explained this is a bullshit excuse, and no, we're to to MC. We are both reading Healing from Infidelity. I ordered How to Help Your Spouse Heal from the Affair, and her response was that it felt like I was shaming her and giving her homework. Which I am, duh. That defensiveness is very 'her'. She sees this as me having and wanting leverage, but that isn't me.

You are trying to lead the horse to water, and you need to stop this.

You ask 'What does true remorse look like?', well, it sure as heck does not look like what your WW is doing.

True remorse would have the WS working hard towards earning a chance at R.

The WS would be buying and reading the books, researching on what a BS needs to heal, and assist in the healing. This does not mean that the BS just sits back, as the BS needs to focus on their recovery, and not try and drive the WS to R.

Your WW seems to be in regret mode, i.e. still inward looking. It is still about her, her shame, what she has lost, etc.

Remorse is more 'outward' looking, what does my BS need to heal? How can I help with his pain? How can I help make sure my children are okay? How can I help restore trust in my BS?

The very fact that she is still working with her AP and has not offered to quit, shows that she is still in self-preservation mode. She is thinking of how she can support herself in the event you head towards D. Also, proximity to the AP means that she will never break the 'connection' she has with her AP.

He's now terrified I'm going to tell his spouse, who has a borderline personality disorder, and his fear makes me giddy.

Also, how can you trust this? What is your source? It is from your WW, right? Is she a reliable source of information? She could be making it sound overly dramatic to make you 'feel better' that the AP does not have a rosy life so that you have it 'better' in comparison to him?

To me remorse would have looked like him putting the same energy he spent on his secret second life ap (aps) into learning his why's and fixing them. Taking 💯 responsibility for what he did And extricating himself from the people places and things that were affair supportive

I gave her two options: divorce or reconcile

Kindly, I think you jumped the gun here. You also gave her more power than she should have at this juncture. I get it, we are all betrayed at one point and we can all remember those initial seconds, minutes, hours and days and they all feel like time stopped and in those moments we want nothing else than to return to the world where we don't feel the pain and the roller coaster of emotions that come with discovery.

All that being said, reconciliation is a gift and it is most definitely a gift that is "earned" in the sense that it shouldn't be bestowed on waywards like it's Oprah's book club...and unlike most gifts reconciliation is absolutely given conditionally. You know your wife better than any of us could, but I think it is safe to assume that she didn't know how to start, have and keep an affair and she certainly didn't consult you on the matter. So why does she need you to help her get out of it? In other words, she got herself into this mess without your help, so she can figure out how to fix it. In theory she is no longer stealing hours of time from you and your family so she can rededicate it to finding resources and support to help her fix it.

What consequences has your wife suffered after discovery? I ask only because the impression that I'm getting from your post is that you are the one doing all the heavy lifting post discovery and to me it looks like a version of the pick me dance. Again, I understand the notion that you love your wife and your immediate reaction is to save your marriage, you are not he first BH that has that reaction and you will not be the last. It is a perfectly normal and natural response an desire. As we say around here, you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it.

Your WW has to know that this is the end of the road and you are done with her bullshit. She hasn't had any consequences and if you want to see if she is truly worthy of reconciliation (R), you need to lay down some ground rules and see how she reacts. Her response to these boundaries will show you (not her telling you), but show you if she is worthy of R. Some actions that will help:

-Boot her ass to the couch or guest bedroom.
-Get yourself tested for STDs and put a hold on further relations until you get the results, for me this was a sign to my wife that I wasn't playing as I made her getting an STD test that she shared with me as one of the first steps of reconciliation.
-Find her AP's partner/wife and share with them the facts you have. If you can meet with her in person or over the phone, that is the best way to do it. Sending messages via Facebook Messenger or email or text even could be intercepted by her AP. There are also options of using a certified letter approach or others, but if you live in the same area, you can probably find her and speak with her. You are doing this for two reasons, 1) it's the right thing to do morally, that woman is living a lie because of your wife and her husband's actions, she deserves to know the truth about her life and what dangers she is being exposed to through her wayward husband's affair(s) and 2) affairs love the dark, like cockroaches, shine some light on them and they are not nearly the shiny toy they once appeared...and you can keep tabs on her through the OBS and you comparing notes, cross checking timelines and keeping the other in the loop if NC is broken.
-Insist your wife resign immediately and go No Contact (NC) with him. There should be a clear NC message written and sent to him. She should share the message with you as a draft before she sends it and ideally, she comes to you with her phone/laptop and asks you to send it and then proceed to delete/block him as a contact forever. The NC message doesn't have anything but the facts

"Dear AP - Our relationship is inappropriate and must come to an end. I am committing to my husband and we can no longer be friends or in contact with each other. I ask that out of respect for my family and I that you honor our wishes for no further contact. Any further contact after this day will be unwanted and considered harassment and if necessary we will involve local legal authorities to enforce strict no contact."

That's it or the jist of it. No "goodbye my star crossed lover" or any of that stupid bullshit waywards convince themselves is happening.

Do a few of those things and let your wife see the consequences of her actions and see if she is truly worthy of R or if she just continues her wayward ways.