SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I utterly reject the notion that divorce is the only answer. Certainly, it's one answer, but people are more complex than that and so are relationships. I haven't read Cheating in a Nutshell but I do hear that it does a very good job of relating with the emotional damage a BS suffers after infidelity.

If I were looking for something to help me cut through the clutter of emotional trauma though, I would go with What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal by John Gottman. In it, the author does a very thorough discussion of trust. This ended up being a factor in my 'stay or go' decision. I mean, it doesn't replace the importance of a WS's willingness to work on his issues, but it takes TWO to make R, a WS getting his work done as well as our own desire to continue.

In the first year or so after dday, I was uncertain as to whether that desire was really there. I felt ambivalent for a lot longer than I was willing to admit. This book reminded me that Trust is much more complex than what we might think on first blush. When I did the lengthy quizzes, it turned out that my trust metric was still quite high, even though I answered in the affirmative provocative questions like "has your spouse ever cheated?" and "do you believe your spouse will cheat?". I still trusted my fWH on so many other issues, things like taking care of me if I was sick, parenting our young adult children, keeping the family financially sound, etc. etc. This knowledge helped move the dial for me a little so I felt more confident in recovery.

Anyway, there are lots of resources out there. My advice to you would be to read a lot. Some things will make sense and stick with you. Others will sound good for awhile but might not stand testing. Have faith that you'll muddle through and find what's right for you. Infidelity knocks us for a loop but we do eventually get our bearings. You will too.

Divorce is not the only answer. I don't think the authors argue that. It is the default answer.

We are animals at the core. Yes, we have developed frontal lobes, but beneath that, lies another program. We cannot erase it, we cannot add patch codes, it just does what it does. All we can do is understand that it is there and work around it.

A few years back, I put a Brad nail through my finger. It went through the bone and nail. I didn't consider my options, I didn't assess the situation and weigh my options. What I did was yank it out almost as fast as it went in.

Our response to infidelity, at the core, is to remove the threat as quickly as possible. It is an instinctive act, born of millenia of evolution and adaptation. When we counter that base programming, we experience tension and conflict within our psyches. It takes work to resolve that conflict. Some never do, even though they desperately try to convince themselves and others that they have.

I think many BSs beat themselves up over the guilt of not being big enough to get over it, when in reality, they were just never built to.

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 11:39 PM, Sunday, February 5th]

I think many BSs beat themselves up over the guilt of not being big enough to get over it, when in reality, they were just never built to.

Agreed - unfortunate some never "go" and others do but after extended time - or worse: "Stay for the children" not realizing the subtle lesson they are providing their offspring.

I think many BSs beat themselves up over the guilt of not being big enough to get over it, when in reality, they were just never built to.

Agreed - unfortunate some never "go" and others do but after extended time - or worse: "Stay for the children" not realizing the subtle lesson they are providing their offspring.

To get a little philosophical I do believe that we have, in the western world, shut each other out of our extended families. Family members used to live close to each other so they were able to help out if there were lots of children in one family or an elderly person in another because the village folks looked after each other. Now the focus is on earning enough money to build a McMansion. No one lives there except two people and possibly some children. I grew up with the grandparents and so did my mother. My children have lived with neither because we’ve moved many times for my husband‘s job. I don’t have a village and neither do my children and it makes me sad. It means when a family gets under stress husband might drink and sit in bars and the wife might find a lover. With family around that would be none of that because family would make sure the stress was taken care of internally. We ask way too much of each other by depending on one person to provide everything including best friend, confidant, lover etc. We spend our best hours at work being friendly, funny, supportive etc. We come home tired, to a house that is full of stuff that has to be cleaned, washed, and so on. Joy disappears. Angst shows up. We wonder where it all went.
We expect passion to be instant but children need to be fed. It is no surprise that the thickest magazines deal with weddings but not any with how to be in a marriage. And absolutely none in how to be a grownup. We have been fed the fantasies and we have swallowed them, hook, line and sinker.
Do I sound cynical? I am just realistic.

I haven't read all the responses....my apologies if my post is out of sync. I just had a sudden thought in the divide between the R vs D debate and the notion that one is superior - and particularly in regard to the risk analysis approach.

For those of us that had a failed R attempt - and partly the reason why we seemingly have, at times, such a vehement opposition to the idea of a successful R - is not just about odds but more so, the cost of a failed R. Almost all of us will tell you that there was more pain, more loss, more damage, from the failed R than the infidelity itself. It's subsequently also harder to find compassion (from others) and self-forgiveness because there is a sense that we brought it on ourselves - that we should have known better. (Hence the example of why one wouldn't hire a "re-formed" financial manager...or date a prior WS.) It's not so much that we are arguing the risks from a mathematical probability as we are the costs from an experiential reality.

I do find it interesting - no matter the outcome of the marriage - that the general consensus seems to be when it comes to infidelity, the ends never justify the means. In simple terms, few (none?) of us see the infidelity as ultimately beneficial. We all wish it would have never happened. Most of us would never wish it on our worst enemy. That says something to the egregiousness of the offense and the magnitude of the cost....and I can completely understand the most conservative approach that some costs just simply aren't worth the risk - no matter the tilt or the till.

None of this is to negate the successful rebuilds some of you have achieved. Having spent quite a few years in that place of rebuilding, I can also speak to the costs of that. It's no small mountain...and none of you reached the top by magically beating the odds and having your name drawn out of some hat. My intent is not to minimize any of the risk you have taken, the work you have done, or the depth of those unique challenges. Nor is it to lessen the authenticity of what you have achieved...or the value you now have for it. I can imagine it...because I thought I had achieved it too. Until I hadn't. Until it ALL had suddenly been for NOTHING.

This is the down-side to attempting R. It's very possible that you not only go home with nothing...you go home with even less...less than when you even first lost it all. You not only still have to climb a (different) mountain...but you now have less to do so with. You're even more battered and bruised...you lost even more conviction. You no longer have to try to reconcile your marriage...you have to reconcile the relationship with yourself....that this risk (and loss) is one you voluntarily took. Against the odds. So of course we are going to be screaming from our new mountaintops to just start climbing this mountain. Because if the one you're thinking about fails, this is where you are going to be anyway.

Sorry, all. I sometimes trigger on over-generalizations and what I think is bad thinking. (The prez of my condo has just paid off no interest debt by borrowing at 10%, and he actually says and thinks that cleans up our balance sheet, so I may be triggering here.)

So, isn't what you are saying that a marriage is better after the affair than before the affair just a subjective measurement also?

Exactly.

Bringing probability into it makes the subjective look objective. It's an attempt to change an opinion into a fact, which is a major thinking error.

What measurements are used to measure a marriage "before" and "after" an affair to say that it is better or worse with reconciliation?

Exactly. There are no standard measurements. Some people like the sex, some the companionship, some the cooking/cleaning, some the emotional connect, some ... their spouse's hair color/eyes/chest....

But I'm a lot better placed to judge the quality of my M than anyone else is, just as you all are much better placed to judge the quality of your Ms.

In any case, it's impossible to evaluate probabilities without decent measurements.

... I sort of have to disagree with you on your analysis of the worthlessness of risk analysis when facing probably outcomes.

Umm ... I think I wrote that probabilities are worthless when considering how to respond to infidelity. I think risk management has an important place making many decisions and achieving goals.

What works when responding to infidelity is deciding what one wants, making guesses about what's possible in your specific sitch, deciding what you're willing to do, and doing that.

To heal from being betrayed, one has to do one's own work. What SI can help with is supporting people in taking responsibility for themselves and acting in their own best interests, as they define 'best interests' for themselves.

The fact that each individual has to act for themself makes statistics a distraction, not a help.

My advanced studies were in statistics and risk management. While we don't have reliable statistics on marriage reconciliation outcomes, because they are so subjective, we do know that approximately 50% of first time marriages in the Western World end in divorce.

How many of the people entering 1st time Ms think they'll be in the 50% that stay together? Hell, I knew half of Ms failed when I proposed in 1967. The apparent probability made me think a lot about choosing to stick with W2b, but I still took the chance.

*****

I agree wholeheartedly that BSes will be better off if they consider all their options before choosing D, R, and waiting to get more info. I'd go further and state that if R is potentially desirable, one will be better off if they see positives as well as negatives for each option. But that's an opinion, not a fact.

*****

I agree that false R is devastation upon devastation. It's often said here that the WS's behavior after d-day kills more Ms than an A in itself.

Gottman may screw up my argument that statistics are meaningless WRT recovering from infidelity.

He and his followers appear to have identified lots of behaviors that seem to support staying or splitting. It does look like a good Gottman-trained therapist can increase the probability of avoiding false R. Alas, how many of us knew about Gottman's work in a timely manner?

I didn't find Gottman until 4 years after d-day. The stuff he wrote confirmed that I had made the right choice. I wish I had read him much earlier - I would have been a lot less afraid that I was wasting my time.

I think SI tries to help prevent false R. Adding some Gottman to our recommended reading list might provide some actual help.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:26 PM, Sunday, February 5th]

Not just friends was very helpful to both my husband and I.

Living and Loving After Betrayal by Stosny was very helpful to me.

To Sisoon & Oldwounds: Congratulations on successful reconciliations. My hats off to you because this was an extremely hard accomplishment for you. I mean this sincerely.

As I said previously, I can count on two fingers two very good reconciliations that I am acquainted with over these last 85 plus years. I would give my exact age, but I have put out so much personal information that I am sure that maybe some of you in Texas already know who I am.

These two who successfully reconciled are people I have befriended in the past. I spent 6 years in both the Army and Air Force. In the Army I was in artillery. In the Air Force I was an operator in communications intelligence in the Security Service. I made a large number of friends in the military and I am still friends with some of them who are still living.

After I got out of the military I started to college while working in construction. College is where I met my wife. I had been betrayed badly while overseas with the military. I had a bad attitude about relationships. My wife helped with my mindset about relationships (in other words,I fell hard for her). When we married I knew I needed a more steady job than construction. I lucked into going to work as a trainee for a risk management company providing our clients data, reports,surveys, and on site assessments of risks and hazards. That is when I decided to get my masters in RM and became a fellow of the institute.

Anyway, I stayed in touch with my best friend that I had made while in the Air Force. We talk about once a month. A few years after I was married he started telling me of his marital problems and that his wife was talking with her first real boyfriend. She ended up cheating on him for about 6 months. They tried to reconcile for about 3 years, but he finally called it quits and they got divorced.

However, this is not where the story ended. After they were divorced for several months they decided to try again and ended up remarrying. He then seemed to be truly happy with her and their marriage until she passed away 2 years ago. He is one of the personal examples I know of a truly successful and happy reconciliation.

The second successful reconciliation I know is someone from the company I worked with. I won't go into the details, but he seemed happy before he passed away around 10 years ago.

Now then, I do not personally know you two, so I will take your word that you two have successfully reconciled and are very happy you did. In my personal experiences over the years I can truly tell you that you seem to be in the minority of those who were successful. I have known many who stayed for the children or their financial situation dictated they stay married and none seemed truly happy they were married. I had a cousin plus an aunt who did this and it is sad.

Perhaps in wording my original post I probably used the word probability incorrectly. I have used that word so much in the past that it comes to mind very easily.

What the authors are advising in that chapter is to tell the reader to try to look outward from the situation they are experiencing in the present moment. The way they did it is to get the reader to describe their current situation (my spouse cheated). Then they try to get the reader to start describing what Favorable Outcomes they want to see happen. (The cheater stayed with me). (The cheater became remorseful). (The cheater became honest). Etc.

The purpose is to try to get the reader to get away outside their head from their current emotions and "think" about what is currently happening and what they really want to happen in the future.

I pointed this out to a SI poster who has since been banned. He replied he had previously read Cheating in a Nutshell and he had been making lists of favorable outcomes he desired. He said he kept going over his lists and revising them.

Because the emotions from being betrayed are so strong at the beginning, and have such a grip on the one who was betrayed, it is almost impossible for them to do make this list. They are currently being very reactive instead of being proactive because their reptilian brain has taken over. This is very understandable. With time, say a couple of months, maybe their emotions might slow down enough for them to start thinking in an objective manner about their current situation and what the future might look like.

What the betrayed needs to understand is that they may get one of their favorable outcomes, or two, or even three of the favorable outcomes they desire, depending on what they decided as a favorable outcome. If they desire five or more favorable outcomes then the Odds of getting All Five or More Favorable Outcomes are Practically Nil. Common sense should tell them that. There have been many proverbs over the years about this. It comes down to their individual situation and what they desire for the future.

I have taken too long for this post. I just wanted to congratulate you two. I know myself well enough to know that I would not have the intestinal fortitude to work towards reconciliation day after day after day, while I would be in the same house seeing and interacting every day with the treasonous person who betrayed me and destroyed my spirit and soul. I am just not that person.

Well done you two!

[This message edited by lrpprl at 1:29 AM, Monday, February 6th]

lrpprl-

Now then, I do not personally know you two, so I will take your word that you two have successfully reconciled and are very happy you did. In my personal experiences over the years I can truly tell you that you seem to be in the minority of those who were successful.

Thanks?

And I'll note again, I am NOT against the book the OP asked about. It's a resource, I just found it incomplete. It's why I read several dozen more books about the topic, only a few covering infidelity specifically -- most of them were about healthy relationships and what those look like.

FWIW, SI was founded by an R couple. A good couple. A FWS who offered really good advice to WS about accepting their responsibility for their choices.

I know myself well enough to know that I would not have the intestinal fortitude to work towards reconciliation day after day after day, while I would be in the same house seeing and interacting every day with the treasonous person who betrayed betrayed me and destroyed my spirit and soul. I am just not that person.

I was certain I was not that person either.

Hanging out with a soul destroyer, a term that rings true to me in the days after discovery, isn't fun. The better stuff starts to kick in once they're done destroying their own esteem and standards and realize the damage done, to them, their family and us.

I don't ever want to make R sound easy or offer false hope for people, I just share my story because that's what SI does. It is how I landed here and got some great advice, to go along with some terrible advice and then I understood I would have to do my own work to get what I wanted.

My real life examples and the people I have been around here on SI, I have found far more than 2 happy stories. Beyond the positive stories thread, I was fortunate to communicate with a number of members here who had some success. One divorced member helped me and encouraged me more than most, mainly because he was armed with the unvarnished truth. It helped me to figure out what I wanted from ANY relationship whether my current M made it or not.

What are the odds?

Not great.

However, a happy R is not impossible either.

I just don't think is as rare as some people contend.

As an anonymous member, I am not selling a result. I say it all the time, I want every SI member to get out of infidelity and all to find their way through, be it R or D. As long as it isn't limbo or worse.

I also say, no WS is owed a last chance.

I'm just really glad I offered that chance. Redemption is a word that doesn't get used much around here, but that's real too.

I think SI needs your numbers, probabilities and results lrpprl -- to illuminate the difficult paths forward.

I also know we tend to lean in to results that back up our choices, and that's probably why I know of more happy couples that made it (eventually).

The magic of SI includes all the stories, good, bad, horrific, rugsweeping, repeat offenders, and some happy new beginnings too.

In the meanwhile, if I am to be relegated to the happy few, we happy few, will have to do.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 11:30 PM, Sunday, February 5th]

Oldwounds...

I was just speaking about reconciled people I personally know and were friends with them before their betrayal. Plus, I put a big "Qualifier" in what I used as "successfully" reconciled couples... HAPPY. I personally know and have known a good number of reconciled couples. Some are no longer with us. The problem I saw is that over the years it seemed that either one or the other person of each couple did not seem as happy as they had been before they were betrayed.

Just speaking about my own long life and experience on this planet we call "Earth" .

Again, I am very glad that you are as happy or happier than you were before you were betrayed.

Take care.

Just speaking about my own long life and experience on this planet we call "Earth"

I do appreciate that, and the kind words. And really, I was only adding my old dude experiences as well.

I noted your qualifier into my response.

I tend not to count unhappy couples for R. Some may be on their way or still working on it, but until each person is glad they stayed, it isn’t R to me.

If one person is miserable, that sounds like limbo or misery, or simply staying to stay.

It takes two to want R for it be….a reconciliation, or even a real relationship. One person feeling trapped in an M is one too many, IMHO.

duplicate, sorry

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:05 PM, Monday, February 6th]

Odds of 5 successful outcomes? We are not talking about the odds of 5 correct calls of a coin flip or a 5-horse parlay. We're talking about outcomes when we have a lot of control over our actions.

One certainly can say, with truth, 'Of the people I know who have experienced infidelity and told me about it, x% did this and y% did that.'

One can't say with any assurance of accuracy, 'Of the people I know, z% have experienced infidelity, x% did this, and x% did that.' We have no assurance this statement is accurate because we have no assurance that everyone one knows has shared that they've experienced infidelity.

*****

We certainly can't make many useful statistical generalizations about anything based only on the people we know and the people we've heard/read about. Over 25% of my fellow owners in my condo are over 80, for example. That is quite different from the general population.

Note that Shirley Glass reported that of the couples she treated who said they want to R, 20% split. That 'means' you've got an 80% chance of staying together if you both say you want R.

We know that conclusion is probably wrong, because so many WSes say, initially, they'll do anything to rebuild the M. So if Glass reported the number accurately (i.e. that 20% of the couple split), they did more than simply say they wanted to R.

Peggy Vaughan reports the results of her surveys, including:

Current status of marriage to spouse who had affair(s)
76% - married and living together
9% - married but not living together
2% - legally separated
13% - divorced
Help for Therapists (And Their Clients), page 11 of the PDF version

So ... if you want numbers about outcomes of infidelity, you can find them. Some tell you your odds of R are high. Some tell you your odds are low.

I'm not saying R is easy. R and D and recovering from infidelity - all take a lot of effort.

I am saying that the statistics we have about outcomes are simply unreliable.

They do have one possible use. That is, ask yourself which statistics appeal to you. If you like Shirley Glass and Peggy Vaughan's numbers, you probably want R. If you like Cheating in a Nutshell's, you probably want D.

Now that's important - not because the statistics have much merit, but because IMO the best indicator of successful recovery from betrayal is to go where you want to go.

Sisoon...

What you said is absolutely correct.

The late Dr. Glass's stats are really just a very minute sample in the millions or possibly billions cases of infidelity in the world.

I am sure that one can go looking for and find stats that say the opposite.

I am afraid that I opened up a can of worms and we have gotten off the path into a large field of weeds. I apologize for getting us so far off the beaten path. I am sure most readers are tired and weary of reading what I have to say.

My last comments on this thread are this...

"Cheating in a Nutshell" speaks to me... my life experiences and my personality.

Also, I really like "Not Just Friends". It is well written and thought out. This is the book that speaks to you and Oldwounds and your personalities and experiences.

As was frequently said back in the 60's... "Different Strokes for Different Folks".

Take care.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 10:22 PM, Monday, February 6th]

As was frequently said back in the 60's... "Different Strokes for Different Folks".

Yup.

All a BS has to do is figure out what strokes are best for themself. Alas, that's so often easier said than done!

" Oke Doke.

From Webster: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them"

I enjoyed that response, thankyou.

Fawn and freeze are also options in the survival instinct armoury, so along with fight and flight, it’s not really that dichotomous nor that simple although it is true we can see all of this at play in the immediate aftermath and shock of Dday. There are indeed many who regret having divorced and wished they had worked at the marriage. All marriages need work, that’s what makes them healthy. Many post-infidelity marriages are considerably healthier than some that haven’t experienced infidelity for that reason.

[This message edited by Edie at 11:39 PM, Monday, March 13th]