SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Mods- Let me know if this should be in another area.

I rarely post, but am just not sure what to do with this thing that I have agreed to do.

Short version of story- 6 years ago discovered Brother/OM (50yo) and my (44M) and WW (44F) had a 1 month LTA- (5hrs in car no flights/other transportation options) mostly EA with PA on 2 occasions, they had both had feeling for each other for the 17 years of our marriage (wife said during MC she was in love with him before she married me). WW and I are in R and overall is going well though it has been hard and MC has been spotty since the first year. I believe that she wants R, but made it clear in a letter to him right after D-Day that she only chose me because she had made a promise but said she would love him forever no matter what. Since then she has not been clear what her feeling are about him (but says "everything is different" with her feelings for him now), feels the affair was all her fault (she actually initiated and told him she loved him first), and has not kept NC with him (mostly contacting only through extended family text threads and holiday/family event visits (about 1-2 a year). There has been no evidence of covert communication since the first year and she has been open in sharing devices when asked or if she finds me checking them.

This affair blew up the family, (3 sisters 1 brother both parents passed away brother lives in my parents old home, 2 sisters live near him in the same town and one sister lives near my wife and I 5 hours away). Initially there was significant gaslighting from several family members (though one sister seemed to understand) in part because my WW minimized the extent of the affair when she told them and denied the existence of a PA. I was forced to go to Christmas 3 mo after D-day when R was still very tenuous and told not to "ruin Christmas for everyone". 3 months later we were back over near the family because my WW grandmother was dying and one of the sisters "stole" my kids- (took them to be with her kids at the local YMCA) and refused to bring them back unless I "talked with him (my brother)". Of course, I didn't but I did try to talk her down and just get her to understand (which she said she did) that she did not have the full picture and did not have any right to ask me to do that unless she was willing to talk to him first (WHICH NO ONE IN MY FAMILY EVER HAS!!) These are just the instances in the first year. Since then these kind of instances have been much fewer, but, I have had multiple smaller arguments with mainly that sister since then. These mainly focused on her telling me I'm not being "forgiving" enough to just sweep everything under the rug because it was just a "single slip up".

2 years after D-Day I had a long talk with him(OM) and the sister that had been most understanding (not the one stealing my kids!). He(OM) gave me his version of the timeline of the affair which mostly matched my ww's (It resulted in some additional PA info that he didn't realize my wife had't told me). He has never really seemed contrite, though he has half heartedly apologized (over text at the beginning when he was still breaking NC with her, once on the phone and once during this meeting with his arms crossed leaning back in his chair).

OK

So....

I saw the crazy sister this last weekend and it blew up with her misunderstanding something my wife and I were arguing about and the sister and I got into a huge argument that ended with tears and apologies and then discussed why things can't be the same. I have stated that he(OM) needs IC either at a church with a pastor or with a licensed therapist. He has refused to because talking to others "makes him uncomfortable". I will never be able to reconnect with him(OM) or trust him(OM) until I am more certain that he (OM) is trying to address whatever it is in him that made him(OM) have an A with his sister in law. We unfortunately have and uncle that when we were kids had an A with another uncle's wife and she ended up divorcing and marrying the uncle she had an affair with. He had seen close up how that tore apart that whole side of the family. There was no way he could have just been following this "love" or making "just a single mistake". So, she asked if we could try "family counseling", I said I wasn't sure we could fine a therapist that would do counseling for 5 adult siblings (my WW will not be there and neither will any BILs). She begged to try just all talking together and I (I think stupidly) agreed. It is scheduled on Saturday over Zoom. I do not know what to do. I think it will descend into a pity party for him(OM) and in the end nothing will be accomplished. I want to just say no, to walk away from the rest of the family and this stupid idea. But I do love my family, a part of me still very much wants to love my brother. I do not want the family to be broken but I do not see how this is going to help.

So here is my question-

I will probably force myself to attend baring some catastrophe, what do I say? do I write down questions, do I share the whole story? Do I just stay quiet and see what they say? Is there anything I can say to my brother that will make him see that he needs to talk with IC, own up to issues and find out why the only woman he ever slept with is my wife? Any help is welcome.

You have been denied the basic right to process your emotions around the betrayal. You are most likely a people pleaser ( like many of us) and are surrounded by personalities that are taking advantage of your inability to say no. This includes your wife.

If I were you I would tell everyone to back off , give you space. You and only you decide if you want to forgive your brother.

I hope you have a good therapist ( individual) who should provide you with the tools to set boundaries. ( I would have called the cops on my sister that kidnapped the kid, this is unacceptable ).

Why don’t you start writing down what your expectations are from your wife and your family?Share it here if you want to and there are people here that will help further. Do not rug sweep the affair because you love family. Guess what, our families aren’t perfect and we are allowed express that.

I wouldn’t even bother indulging with any therapy with your brother. You are worth so much more ! This toxic behavior from your family and wife has to stop. Sooner the better.

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 3:47 AM, Friday, April 7th]

What a mess

One thought is that you've been manipulated and brow beaten for a long time by your family, and this is your chance to turn off the volume so you can't hear them, and just tell them exactly and specifically how you feel about everything. To be heard. Not to hear...to be heard.

So join the Zoom, ask to speak, speak, and sign off. Let them deal with it while you are not know. Silence can be deafening.

Just a thought, that's a tough spot to be in. The one overarching recommendation is to be in 100% control. Don't let anyone manipulate you.

You've been heard, Mltakagu

Families are a weird dynamic and forgiveness can be a dicey subject. In my own family, my mother had been the victim of terrible child abuse. Her father was an alcoholic who would beat her when he was drunk. At one point he broke her arm, another he left gashes across her back. Weirdly though, in the end, she forgave him but couldn't forgive her mother. Her mother might have applied salve to her injuries, but she never stopped the abuse. And in later life when her father stopped drinking, started praying, and begged her forgiveness, she felt continued resentment in her mother because she never did try to make amends. She just went on being the mean old lady she'd become by then.

If your brother is sorry, it doesn't show. If he's done anything to improve himself, he hasn't shared it with you. How can you be expected to forgive someone who isn't sorry? I'm sure it's very confusing for them that your WW didn't get the boot but the brother did. Tough. The guy messed with your wife. He's the one who failed to prioritize the meaning of your relationship. It's on him to prove his remorse to you.

I agree with HouseofPain. If you do decide to tune in, there's no reason why you can't say your peace and then duck out. If they want to bicker and negotiate, that's on them. You are the aggrieved party and the behavior you've had to endure in this situation is unwarranted. Everyone likes it when the family gets along, but no one has the right to push you in such a way as to continue your victimization. If they want empathy, the smart thing would be for them to first apply it to others, chiefly YOU.

You're not wrong if you want decide you want no part in any of this. You aren't the bad guy here.

Are you in IC for yourself? You mention MC, but that does nothing to help you feel supported and get clear about your family of origin issues. (And honestly, MC doesn't do much for you personally as most MC try to save the marriage instead of saving the betrayed. I hope it hasn't been like this for you.) How can you navigate all of the emotions involved without an IC to help you tease your feelings apart (which will help you to do right by you)? I strongly recommend you find someone. Your feelings deserve priority.

Secondly, many families have complicated dynamics that those inside the family cannot see. On a superficial level we can all say, "My family is great. We're super normal" because we can't see the subtleties that exist in our own relationships, but not being aware of our issues does not make the belief that our families are 'fine' true. Your family is not fine. From what you have written, it sounds like there is a whole lot going on in your family--enmeshment, avoidance, guilt, selfishness, controlling behavior. It sounds as if your brother has been sort of catered to maybe all his life? And you have been the one who goes along to get along? That dynamic will NOT fly anymore after something like this. Roles need to change. But it's been six years, and he has not genuinely apologized or seemed remorseful. Apparently he's going to take this "I did nothing that wrong" attitude to his grave, so then what is there to work with? He's the one who needs to learn this at family counseling.

Can I ask though, what did you mean by "the only woman he ever slept with is my wife"? Has your brother never been in a relationship? In his whole life? And why has nobody ever talked to him about what he did, as you pointed out in bolded letters? Why not?

Lastly, you say it will be a pity party for him. It seems you have been groomed by your family to make concessions in life, so yes, I am worried that they will try to force you into assuming that usual role. So maybe plan on listening and taking things in instead of speaking? The facts speak for themselves. An experienced therapist should see the unhealthy, controlling nature of your siblings immediately. I doubt they will be able to cast you as the villain if the C is any good at all. Just listen and let those who insisted on this meeting do the speaking. They all owe you some explanations and support, but YOU OWE THEM ALL NOTHING.

Your brother should bear the full blame for breaking up the family. Of course. A therapist should clearly see this and support it. The worst mistake you can make is to give up your protective position of distance, just to please others. It will eat at your soul, cause depression, etc. No. It is ok to say, "I don't exactly know what I want from my brother and crazy sister, but this ain't it!" It's not your job to give people a grocery list of what to do to get what THEY want. It's their job to simply be good people and work hard to make amends when they are not. Period. You do not owe them directions or second chances. If they learn to be authentically remorseful, then maybe their actions would change your mind. Maybe. But you don't owe them directions for putting the family back together. Sometimes we need to stay apart from family, and this very well may be one of those times.

Let me be clear. I would never, ever let my WS be near my brother again. Do NOT let your sister(s) even try to go there. You have made yourself available for listening in the hopes that the siblings can do the work needed to change over time, but the family will never be whole again (it would seem to me). Do NOT let them pressure you to betray yourself in all this. And I think seeing those two together in the same room would be more than you could ever handle (although that is your call).

Your WW and your M--well, that's a whole other topic. I wish you well. Let us know how Saturday goes.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:26 PM, Saturday, April 8th]

Mltakagu

SIX years on and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?

Suggestion: Get/Read: "No More Mr. Nice Guy" & "Married Man Sex Life Primer"

You are "where you are" in your "family dynamics" because the choices (or lack of) you have
made enabled events and actions to happen as they have.

It's not your job to give people a grocery list of what to do to get what THEY want. It's their job to simply be good people and work hard to make amends when they are not. Period. You do not owe them directions or second chances. If they learn to be authentically remorseful, then maybe their actions would change your mind. Maybe. But you don't owe them directions for putting the family back together. Sometimes we need to stay apart from family, and this very well may be one of those times.

I second this wholeheartedly. One hour with five people on a Zoom call very likely isn't going to yield anything productive. I think your time and effort would be much better spent on IC, as others have said.

Sometimes things can just stay broken.

You can grieve it and move on.

My wife’s mother cheated on her husband with his brother, divorced him, married the brother and had a second set of kids with him.

My wife felt shame at the time. She became religious, then completely not religious. She reacts very badly to being judged. She has almost no relationship with her father.

It’s caused problems for us because she finds it hard to find that personal line when you have a moral view on things, and are prepared to articulate it, without being a judgmental and closed-minded person.

She is still not quite there.

I think the line my wife needs to take about her mother is that what she did was wrong, permanently, and that she refuses to do things like that herself. I think she can be compassionate but should never say things like ‘maybe their marriage wasn’t good and she had few other relationship options’.

I don’t want to live in a world where one thing is as good as another, and where decisions hold so little weight and gravity that choosing a hurtful path doesn’t count for anything. I have made something better than that for my own children. It matters.

I would start your Skype meeting with two or three minutes of glaring, unadorned truth. What was done by your brother and wife. I would say that there is no way forward for you which doesn’t fully acknowledge that truth, and say that leaving things broken, as they are, is an option for you. In fact, things are certain to remain broken, but ‘less bad’ might be okay by you.

I would also state that you will never allow contact in any way, shape or form between your wife and brother, and that you have found the boundary crossing there hurtful and borderline malicious. You expect your family to support that.

Then you can listen.

I am so sorry your wife has destroyed your family. And I’m sorry your brother who was the OM is such a jerk too and chose to destroy your family too.

Your family (obviously) wants to go back to the pre-affair days.

That will never be an option. They need to learn that there are times when things occur that change the dynamics of families and relationships. This is one of them.

You are not obligated to have a relationship with someone who abused you by breaking your trust and in essence sticking a knife in your back.

I would go to one therapy session. Put your cards on the table. Explain lack of remorse is the issue and there cannot be a way to move forward given the circumstances.

Get your sisters to acknowledge that this caused irreparable damage and they have to accept it.

I am so sorry for you. I hope you can close the door on this aspect of your trauma, heal and move on.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 8:13 PM, Saturday, April 8th]

Ooooh. The only case like this I know about is my wife’s HS teacher. She left her H for his brother. He took her back and became something of a laughing stock. Years later she cheated again with yet another guy and divorced him.

You are focusing on the brother here. What is your wife doing to get her head on straight? And why if she loves your brother are you still living together?

Mlttakagu,

You said that your brother the OM saw that happened with the A involving both your uncle and knows what is going on.

As gently as possible , I will share this thread, where children grow up in a family where there was in infidelity and had NO IDEA what the BS parent went through until the children grew up and got cheated on themselves.

Please check out this thread.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/623198/before-you-were-a-bs-and-37-of-bs-pain-you-understood/?ap=1

Maybe, just maybe, you will have a tiny little less anger at your brother.

Wishing you at the best at family counseling.

I will only add, because you asked, there is nothing you can do to get your brother into IC. Nothing. It’s like trying to force an alcoholic to go to AA. You can make them go. (In some cases) but you can’t make them get anything out of it. I’m sorry you’re here. You’ve receive ld a lot of advice to process. Take what you need and discard the rest.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 5:47 PM, Monday, April 10th]

Am I reading this correctly, but are you saying that your WW had a 20 EA with your brother that culminated in a PA in 2017? I think most people would find it extremely difficult to reconcile with either of these people. There are limits to forgiveness in my mind. Life is short and you have been horribly betrayed by two people who should have your back. That is a lot to swallow.

Exactly what is the status of your relationship with your WW? If you are insistent on reconciling with your WW, she needs intensive counseling with a therapist versed in the subject of infidelity. I don't get a feeling that your WW, after six years removed from D-day, has done a whole hell of a lot to help you heal and repair the marriage. As for your sisters, what do they expect from you? The 64-dollar question is whether your WW still loves your brother. If that is the case after twenty-seven years what do you expect to change in this dynamic?

Get yourself in tip-top shape. Carve out a new life with friends. It should be up to your family to make amends. I would never speak to my brother ever again. I would make that clear to everyone. There is simply no amount of contrition in my mind that your brother could exhibit. On the contrary, he doesn't seem very apologetic.

Blood isn't everything. Sometimes people that are connected simply by genetics should not automatically remain in each other's lives.

But if you are hell-bent on trying to keep this family in your life in some fashion, I wish you the best. Make your feelings absolutely clear to everyone. Make sure they know the entire story. Pull no punches.

Hi Mltakagu,

How are you going?
Did you survive the family zoom meeting and was it helpful or another exercise in rug sweeping?

I hope that that your brother (OM) finally understands some of the pain and hurt that he has caused you and your family,
Regards,
FAWH

I hope your zoom meeting wasn't too traumatizing. You can tell the Sister to kindly F off. Doesn't sound like she is adding much value to your life. Your crazy sister isn't interested in fixing this. She just wants things to go back to normal. There is no time machines that can rewind the clock and prevent your brother, with your wife's assistance, from stabbing you in the back. You don't have to have any of them in your life unless your life is better with them than without. You've been traumatized the last six years by this. You need to tell them to do better or they will be out of your life for good.

Hope you took some of the good advice offered above. Personally, I think it would be better for you to focus on your relationship with your WW. She professes undying love for your brother, says she is only staying with you because she promised to and regularly breaks NC. Your WW is clearly not doing the work. The question is why do you stay and allow yourself to be treated like this?

A lot of excellent advice above but I confess that I’m approaching this issue based solely on your original post at the head of this thread.

IMHO the real issue is your wife.

In an ideal world your brother would make amends and you two could find a way for you all to be a family-unit. But even in a less-than-ideal world chances are you and your brother (OM) could be at the same Thanksgiving table without too much awkwardness and hate. Maybe even talk about the game or whatever. In an even less less-than-ideal world you could have a good relationship with your sisters without ever again talking to your brother. In an even less less than-ideal-world you could live a good, productive life with minimal interaction with any of your siblings, or interaction completely on your terms.

But… in no world that I know of can you have a good marriage if your wife sees you as the lesser of two options…

I don’t see a marriage where you have the same options to demote your wife the way you could your brother. You can put distance between yourself and your brother, remove him from your contacts, refuse his calls… whatever. But that would never work in a marriage.

I think the key issue might be to a) make your wife fully understand the consequences of her "slip-up" and that if what she’s saying about always having preferred your brother over you then she is fully free to go be with him, and b) you both commit to the marraige or commit to ending it.

I have this theory. I think that often people hang on to some excuse to remain where they are, even if they think the grass might be greener somewhere else. When their excuses are peeled away – removed – they become reluctant to go to where they always insisted the grass was greener because they realize they have it pretty good where they are.

I have another theory that is connected to the above issue: People tend to justify their actions – even when they realize they aren’t logical, sensible or even sane. The embezzler will insist it was only a loan and they intended to pay it back, the rapist that the woman wanted it rough, the speedster that he was just following traffic…

I think that your wife’s "excuse" and pining for the OM as in putting you in second place could be a combination of the two.

I think it could do you a lot of good if you were to really think long and hard about what you want in your marriage. Having been married myself for several years I realize the original passion and all that might not be there, but I would assume that a key-requirement is that you believe your spouse wants to be with you and doesn’t pine for someone else. You might have it – but does SHE have it?

Then take the concept of "love" – something I believe in. If you love your wife, would you want to keep her even if it wasn’t mutual love? If you were holding her back from her "true" love?

Then take all this and give yourself a few minutes to think how your life would be impacted if you two were no longer married. Be realistic: You won’t starve, you won’t be sleeping in a box, you won’t automatically become a hermit. In some ways I’m challenging you to do what I am later going to suggest you do towards your wife: Remove all excuses for getting out of the impasse I sense you are in.

Then – if you reach the conclusion I hope you reach – peel away all your wife’s excuses for why she remains married to you despite you being a compromise. Allow her the freedom to go be with your brother. Heck – give her your blessing to seek happiness! Refuse to be a compromise.

I have a feeling that once you peel away the layers… once she has the "freedom" she seeks… she can find the real reasons she went this path, and those reasons won’t be because you are lacking or that she desired the OM because he was so much better than you in any way or form.

I think this can be the basis to either rebuild the marriage from or rebuild your life IF your wife is true in her explanations in why this took place.

Are you by any chance the youngest? Or is the OM the youngest? As the youngest of five siblings, it took quite some time for the others to realize I was a man and had my own voice. I guess I was about 35-40, and I know my sisters had a hard time with it. Part of growing up, part of marriage and all that is that you move away from what was your family to the phase where you build YOUR family. That period can cause pain, but IMHO its imperative. You are allowed to decide on what premises/conditions you interact with your grown-up siblings and their families.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:54 PM, Tuesday, April 11th]