SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi everyone!

The other thread has been locked, and as I can't figure out how to unlock it, I am starting a new thread (I hope that is the correct protocol).

So to update...

WW and I have commenced ST with an amazing (female) sex therapist via telemedicine video call. We have been through 4 x 1 hour sessions to date. The therapist has been extremely direct and almost blunt at times, identifying that WW has developed an extremely dysfunctional attitude towards sex generally (almost a full blown neurosis) that was likely caused by a combination of her religious upbringing, her early exposures to sex, as well her extreme repression of her own sexual desires and urges basically her whole life.

So to the major revelations:-

* I was not her first (she had at least 2 sexual encounters before me!) - This was a huge shock to me. Not because of the sex itself, but that she lied and deceived me for over 20 years and carries that built up shame daily.
* The sex she had previously was similar to that of her A sex - her in the submissive role, being led by her more dominant partner. She says she was a more than willing participant in this, and that she feels deep shame that she "sullied herself" (her words).
* That she remembers always "struggling" with her "inappropriate" sex drive basically her whole life, and her upbringing reinforced that this was "not the way young ladies should think and behave". She was even "caught" masturbating by her mother early on and was punished for her sinful thoughts and actions, and that "behaviour" would lead to more sinful and dangerous thoughts and actions.
* She feels that she is already "fallen" and "damned" and wanted to protect me from her dangerous side or some crap, however, her pre M partner and AP were both already "fallen" and therefore ok to do those things with.
* Her attitude towards married sex is that it should be "chaste" and "pure".
* I have also developed dysfunctional attitudes towards sex, finding it difficult to talk about, and to voice my desires and needs.

ST has firmly stated that everything above is extremely unhealthy, toxic towards long term marriages.

She also stated that WW attitude/case was one of the more extreme cases she had encountered, and was frank in her assessment that while she was confident she would be able to help us (individually and collectively), that the process would not be quick, and that in all honesty, felt that our marriage will likely not survive without lots of hard work.

I have therefore decided to call time on the marriage and have commenced the process by separating. We need to separate for 12 months in order to proceed to divorce. In the meantime, we will continue ST and IC throughout the process, but by separating, I have the option to terminate the marriage if nothing changes.

Thanks so much for all your comments and support through this. I have really appreciated it, feeling like others had my back, and that I wasn't being selfish for asking for more in the bedroom post A.

Cheers.

What is your WWs reaction to you initiating separation, with D likely in 12 months?

It is really good to see you return and in a better place.

Whichever poster recommended a sex therapist should be congratulated. She seems to have boiled down your wife's issues and got those out in front of her.

Her dysfunctional reasons are not something foreign to me. I was born 80+++ years ago (don't want to give my exact age), so your wife's parents views on sex were not so uncommon back then. I grew up a small, dirt farming community with many arch conservative religious families around me. Growing up I knew several of my friends, both boys and girls, whose parents were teaching them that way. It is going to take an awful lot of therapy for her to become well.

Again, good to see you return.

I'm so glad to see you're moving forward, and doing what is best for you.

Welcome back, AN. Your thread was locked not due to any action of yours but because there were ongoing threadjacks.

We hope it has been made clear that this will not be tolerated. Posters should respond respectfully and on topic or expect to be removed without warning.

[This message edited by WalkinOnEggshelz at 8:34 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

I'm so glad that you found a good ST!

I'm also curious about how your wife feels about your decision to separate. Regardless, you're doing what you need to do to take care of yourself first and I applaud that.

Welcome back, AspectNorth! I'm glad that you came back to post an update and that you benefited from and felt validated by your very epic thread.

I have therefore decided to call time on the marriage and have commenced the process by separating. We need to separate for 12 months in order to proceed to divorce. In the meantime, we will continue ST and IC throughout the process, but by separating, I have the option to terminate the marriage if nothing changes.

I think this is a great approach. You're taking definitive action and giving yourself a light at the end of the tunnel. You've made it clear to your wife that there is no going back to the preaffair status quo-- either she works with you as a partner to create a new marriage or the old marriage ends. I think a year from filing for separation to official divorce is plenty of time for her to put the work in for you both to gauge whether the marriage can be saved.

To second Dude's question, how did your wife react to the ST's assessment your decision to file?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:01 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

Hi AN,

Lot of new developments for you!

Something I am still trying to understand even about my WH, if they think sex is dirty why did they indulge in it repeatedly.? They claim they were ashamed but did they not enjoy it?
Why is it that others get to experience and fulfill my WH’s true sexual desires while I get a watered down version of the same?
And mind you the spouses here are not prudes but more than willing and open to different sexual experiences. I still haven’t gotten any closure about this with therapy and more than the betrayal the withholding of his true self to me is what is most painful.

You seem to have a good ST. She correctly pointed out that you now have a dysfunctional view of sex thanks to your wife. I do wonder if it will be easier for me to start with a new person wrt intimacy since my experience has been tainted with my WH and it will be awkward even if we work towards it.

Sorry I made this response all about me but your update triggered a few feelings.

I hope you find more clarity about your situation.

Hi again, and thanks for your interest and support..

What is your WWs reaction to you initiating separation, with D likely in 12 months?

Initially, shock and anger (how dare I do this after all the work we've put into this... trying the sunk cost argument on me), but also sadness and depression (crying etc), along with some attempts at bargaining (ie. what is the minimum she needs to do to keep me - I told her that was the wrong question to be asking of me).

She has also tried seduction (but still only basic vanilla), which to be honest is the hardest to resist, but so far I'm staying (mostly) strong in that respect.

So to living arrangements.

WW is still living in the caravan (travel trailer) and is hating it. She desperately wants to move back into the house, and has even taken it on herself to clean out the home office for use as a bedroom. She also shown her nasty side by stating she wants full custody of the kids (teenagers) and has tried to gaslight me that as the mother, she has more claim than I do... or some such crap. My lawyer says otherwise.

Bank accounts are now separate, and I am working to untangle myself financially in preparation for the divorce.

WW's parents have told me WW can move in with them until she can get herself back on her feet - they have been mostly supportive, but I have to remember that they will still back their daughter, so need to watch for suggestions from them that may not be in my interest.

Amazing to me though how fast news of our separation has travelled through our friend groups, and how many of our friends are rallying to WW side. Didn't expect the impact this would have on me, but I guess it is the way it is.

More interesting revelations coming through at ST, including more details of A sex, pre M sex, as well as discussing my own hangups. It seems I've collected quite a bit of baggage over the past 20 or so years.

I think it was HikingOut that first suggested ST, and I'm eternally grateful to her for that suggestion. It was definitely the right move.

Thanks again for reading my ramblings.

I'm pulling for you two, but I can't tell you how frustrated I AM at your wife's lack of empathy. And that's from an internet stranger thousands of miles away!

She should know, if nothing else at this point, that she put you through a tremendous amount of pain. This isn't even up for debate. EVERYTHING that the two of you have worked on in the last couple of years was due to her actions, and she knows it. So why isn't she able to show it?

No matter what, I don't think the marriage has much of a chance until/unless her mindset changes. Opening up sexually is an entirely different topic; not empathizing with your pain, in my opinion, is the crucial element missing.

Hi AspectNorth, I am so so glad to hear that you are getting yourself out of infidelity! Both the sex therapist, and separating to look out for YOURSELF, are great news.

And thank you for coming back with this update. You got some passionate responses on your last thread, we are all rooting for you!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:25 PM, Saturday, April 22nd]

I just saw your latest post (I apologize, I wrote my previous post before seeing it--I have been meaning to write on your thread since seeing it). Still though, basically what I wrote there. You are doing the right thing by staying the course and staying strong.

It is clear from your last post, that your WW is NOT yet remorseful i.e., her alternating between bargaining and bluffing. Meanwhile I do wonder what is the narrative your circle of friends are getting.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:50 PM, Saturday, April 22nd]

I am so sorry to hear "how many of our friends are rallying to WW side". I remember your first posts talked about how the AP and the OBS were in several social groups you all shared, and that you had met them both as acquaintances many times.

I don't know if these were faith-based social groups, but we have seen here over the year a few times that faith based groups sometimes put ALOT of pressure on the BS to rugsweep and white-knuckle reconcile.

You initially spoke about wanting to (appropriately) connect with the OBS. Have you done so?

How are your teenagers faring? It must be difficult to not have as much support from friends and family as you deserve. But make no mistake, you deserve support. You have done nothing wrong.

Based on birth control only being available about 70 yrs ago all parents feared their daughters would " fall". The new generation of women 30s/40s do not have those hang ups. Because that was drilled into her during her most vulnerable time(her youth) it is going to take the equivalent of a sledge hammer to get those guilty thoughts out.
In the meantime take care of yourself. You need IT to get these years of gaslighting out of your mind.

So great that you have found a good ST! To be able to find any kind of good therapist where it gets both sides finally talking sex in a marriage is huge. Wanting sex and being able to talk about sex and being honest about it are sadly what breaks many relationships apart. It's never just about that one thing, trust and honesty are needed to have an intimate partnership. Being able to voice your needs and wants is also important, so many times people think that loving someone means that they can always read your mind or "just Know" what you want, sometimes you just gotta be able to talk about it.

I have therefore decided to call time on the marriage and have commenced the process by separating. We need to separate for 12 months in order to proceed to divorce. In the meantime, we will continue ST and IC throughout the process, but by separating, I have the option to terminate the marriage if nothing changes.

^^^I think that's a wise move on your part.^^^ I think that its so dang hard to get thru all of this, so many layers to finding some kind of healing, that separating so you can find yourself again is a good thing. I feel that you will start to "see" things much more clearly when you can get some space and distance from her and then also allow her to try to find her own truths about herself and what she wants along with yourself.

[This message edited by realitybites at 8:03 AM, Sunday, April 23rd]

Congratulations on taking the steps you needed to resolve this awful situation. First by going to ST. It proves that you are willing to examine what happened here are are taking steps to see if you can resolve them. The second is putting a pause on the marriage while you do these things.

The new information that she seemed to have plenty of what most would call a healthy sex life prior, kind of blows a hole through the theory that so many of the posters had that you needed to tolerate her lack of healthy sex with you because it would take her back to a place of what she did with the AP. It is clear that she is capable, and even willing, to do more than vanilla sex. She just isn’t willing to do it with you. It may very well be she believes that married sex is different, or she may just not physically crave it from you specifically.

Support from friends is not a bad thing as she is going to be in a world of hurt. But if that support also casts you as the bad guy that would not be acceptable. What has she told this group of friends? Are they all aware of what she did?

You can expect this kind of begging for a long time. I got it right to the bitter end. I didn’t however get threats. She is way out of line with that. It’s also stupid as it’s not going to make her more attractive to you.

The big question is is there a pathway for her to keep the marriage and do you at this point want it. What can she do? She most likely with her baggage isn’t going to be some giving lover right away, but if she offered up not everything, but Al least something more than the crap sex you have gotten all these years would that be enough to try again?

Your wife’s reaction certainly disproved all those people in your last post who considered your wife a "model WS" and a tragic figure.

She really expected to just railroad you into reconciliation. She thought that if she just did steps xyz, you would be would simply comply to a return to the status quo.

And I’m sorry to be so blunt, but the fact that she threatened to sue for full custody of kids just demonstrates what cruel, selfish, bully your wife is.

Your wife doesn’t have a sex problem; she has a control problem. I don’t think she’s concerned about keeping her marriage "pure;" I think she gets off specifically on forcing you to live on her terms and dictating the expression of your sexuality. It’s a reversal of the dynamic she shared with her AP and previous lovers… the only difference is that you didn’t consent to being her sub.

Now that you’re defending yourself and advocating for your own interests, her motivations are coming to light. Good. Keep holding the line.

OK... just need to vent a little.. so bear with me..

I attended a social gathering with some friends over the weekend (WW also attended, but travelled separately), where I was bailed up by the W of a good friend of mine.

She started into me about "leading WW on for almost 3 years", and how if I wanted to end the marriage I should have done it when she first confessed, not now after "everything WW has done and sacrificed to save the marriage".

I was dumbfounded.... very angry... but dumbfounded....

At first I tried to be tactful by saying that yes, we had indeed moved though a lot of areas, that we had discovered one sticking point that has proven to be intractable, and therefore I believe the best way forward is to separate and D.

I was told I was being selfish... and how WW doesn't deserve this, as she came clean, and has worked so hard on this, and how surely after 3 years I should be "over all of this".

She said that I "should know now" that WW will never do anything but be faithful and good wife and mother to my children, and that the A was an aberration, and that "she isn't that person anymore"... I guess I should have filled her in on the full situation re: sexual control and inhibitions with me, but I was too taken aback.

Methinks I need to be proactive in informing mutual friends (tactfully of course) of that the issue is for my decision?

Anyhow... rant over... back to regularly scheduled life I guess..

AN.

AN,

I am sorry that you had that encounter. I totally understand why you need to vent. It must have been hard to listen to nonsense like that, but there are bound to be some individuals who feel they are involved and who have only heard your wife's side of the story who will feel like your self-appointed critic.

What you were subjected to was a form of gaslighting, combined with victim-blaming. However, if there is a positive to be taken from this, it is that your wife has some loyal if misguided friends who will be 'there' for her when you move on to build your new life. They have to make you the bad guy and the villain of the peace, because they do not want to cast your WW in that role. As annoying as that may be, you should not let the delusions of others get under your skin too much. Those delusions are their mental crutch, and their issue to deal with.

The woman who took you to task did so without asking (1) how you are, and (2) for your side of the story. You owe no explanations or justifications to anyone, but particularly not to people who do not care about you.

She started into me about "leading WW on for almost 3 years", and how if I wanted to end the marriage I should have done it when she first confessed, not now after "everything WW has done and sacrificed to save the marriage".

I was told I was being selfish... and how WW doesn't deserve this, as she came clean, and has worked so hard on this, and how surely after 3 years I should be "over all of this".

She said that I "should know now" that WW will never do anything but be faithful and good wife and mother to my children, and that the A was an aberration, and that "she isn't that person anymore"... I guess I should have filled her in on the full situation re: sexual control and inhibitions with me, but I was too taken aback.

The urge to 'educate' your critic must have been pretty strong, but you are much better of to not start debating or arguing with third parties who have written their own narratives, or you are going to end up spending large amounts of time justifying yourself to people who have no interest in listening. Do not waste that time. We have a saying in the UK; "empty barrels make the most noise". Your critic was a noisy empty barrel. There may be a few more of them around, but they can safely be ignored, no matter how much they may love the sound of their own voice as they trumpet their ignorance of the truth.

Methinks I need to be proactive in informing mutual friends (tactfully of course) of what the issue is for my decision?

By all means talk to good friends to inform them of your thinking/reasons, but be careful not to get drawn into a 'battle of the narratives' via third party. The bottom line is, you decided that you can no longer remain in the marriage, and that is entirely your prerogative and right. You do not have to go into great detail about your reasons, and your true friends will accept your right of agency over your life. I daresay a number of your friends may already be thinking, "Well. he was cheated on, so this divorce is hardly a surprise".

You deserved none of this, but enduring the short-term turbulence and the racket made by empty barrels is entirely worth it for the prize, which is the new life opening up to you, with all its potential for a new relationship not blighted by dishonesty and dysfunction.

You are a good man, not the bad guy!

I'm sorry you had this difficult encounter, but from my perspective this was a bit of serendipity. It is logical to conclude that everything the friend thinks she knows about the A and about the marriage post Dday was told to her by your WW. In other words, the friend's comments furnish a sort of magic mirror that reflect your WW's actual thoughts and feelings at present. Under that lens, let's unpack this, shall we?

She started into me about "leading WW on for almost 3 years", and how if I wanted to end the marriage I should have done it when she first confessed, not now after "everything WW has done and sacrificed to save the marriage".

Leading WW on for almost 3 years. She first admitted the A in August of 2020. Since then, there has been at least one additional Dday if memory serves, never mind the recent revelation of pre-marital sex that was not previously disclosed. In other words, the "almost 3 years" part is self-serving and it inflates the actual time that has passed, especially in the context of the trickle truth. Again, reminding you that this is your WW speaking, via an interpreter (her friend). In other words, it's safe to assume that your WW feels she has paid her dues and should be seeing a horizon at this point. Clearly, she has not even a little bit internalized the reality that, even in the best of cases, the A would be a permanent plus one in the marriage, forever.

As to the "leading WW on" bit, your WW and the therapist have engaged in the conceit of repeatedly putting you on time-out for a period of a couple of months or so, over and over. You have dutifully obeyed, choking down your real feelings until you reached out to us. If anybody has been stringing anybody along, it has been your WW doing the stringing.

I was told I was being selfish... and how WW doesn't deserve this, as she came clean, and has worked so hard on this, and how surely after 3 years I should be "over all of this".

"She came clean, has worked so hard, blah blah blah." She cheated in the most awful and horrific of ways. Since then, she has offered a few crumbs of regret, but no real remorse, stringing you along for a couple of years. Most notably, she has not only failed to invest meaningfully into spicing up your sex life; she has steadfastly refused to do so. In fact, this is her line in the sand: no spicy sex for AN. Ever.

Her comments to you ("You're going to divorce me because I won't give you a blowjob?") reek of contempt and a belief that she can control you. She has done zero real work in terms of empathy, helping you heal, making the marital sex life into something that is satisfying. Essentially, she has spent the last couple of years trying to bully you back into your crate so she can close the door and lock you in, like a dog.

She said that I "should know now" that WW will never do anything but be faithful and good wife and mother to my children, and that the A was an aberration, and that "she isn't that person anymore"... I guess I should have filled her in on the full situation re: sexual control and inhibitions with me, but I was too taken aback.

Your WW has not been a "good wife" to you since Dday. Therefore, how can you know that she would start being a good wife at some point in the future?

As to faithful, that's anybody's guess. She promised to be faithful in your wedding vows, and she broke that promise. Per your posts, she hasn't engaged in any deep or meaningful work to figure out why she is a promise-breaker. Therefore, the risk of her breaking her promise again in the future is real.

Then, there is the elephant in the room: you'd actually like her to be "that person" again, but with you, in the marital bedroom. Alas, the one thing you can be clear on is that she has and will steadfastly refuse you that. She wants a dog, not a man. Something she can train to fetch, and earn a paycheck, kill bugs, move heavy things, and while you are doing those things, she can freely ignore your legitimate desires as a sexual man. That's what she has put on offer to you.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:05 PM, Monday, April 24th]