SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I whole heartedly understand what you are going through.

If that's the case, as it is the same with my ex and her AP - yes, they upgraded.

But at the same time they (our ex) - as a person - downgraded themselves. They will forever be tainted by infidelity. They will forever carry that with themselves. Most will ignore and downplay what they have done, but only consciously. Subconsciously on a deep psychological level, they tainted their entire character and they will NEVER be the same person that we have met, and fell in love with.

This is the only bandage we can apply.

It's a tragic, sad and desperate situation for everybody except AP. And our only choice now should be to reflect on our behavior to prevent this from happening / increase our value to our next partner.

- What has made us so unattractive that they lost so much respect, they could do such a thing? Let's face it: Yes, some cheaters are simply vile, demonic, reckless characters. But sometimes we, the betrayed, acted way out of the normal. Sometimes even toxic I suppose. Yes - probably because of childhood trauma we couldn't cope with at the time, but still. When I look back at how I acted the last year of my relationship, it was totally understandable that she left. Which does NOT EXCUSE cheating! I am not saying that. BUT! People are imperfect. We make mistakes. They make mistakes. Sometimes both parties contributed evenly to the burned-to-ashes relationship. Neither of us are bad / evil people, per se.

- What is missing inside of US, that we feel so desperate and in despair because of ONE person? That is not normal. I want to emphasize on that. It is NOT normal to react the way most of us here do. My aunt was recently cheated on by her ex-husband of 17 YEARS. She almost lost her house, had to take care of two dogs alone while being self-employed, had to sell our grandparents house to pay bills etc. And she didnt even CLOSELY fell as deep as I did. Why? Because she has a healthy self esteem and is rock steady in her life choices. We need to become rock steady too, no matter who does what to us. 9 months later she met a man who is treating her really nice. They're both in their 50s btw.

- What is missing in our life that our ex filled? Stability - we need to be stable on ourself. Intimacy - we need to be contempt with who we are even if we are alone for a couple of months / years. Sex - we can get casual sex if we decide to, once we found our strength to not instantly attach to the next possible option, just out of misery and despair.

And also:

We should reflect on our ex partners behavior aswell.

- How did we feel during the last 1-2 years during the relationship? Was it all good? Was our ex REALLY that amazing? Or were we incompatible and we simply choose to ignore out of laziness / fear / complacency? Did they show abusive behavior which we are willingly to overlook because we miss them?

- Did they communicate their needs clearly? Did they give us a chance in working on our relationship or did they simply discard us when their AP made their effort? That is a huge factor in evaluating who we were with. Because if they didn't communicate, its almost guaranteed that at some point they would've cheated anyway, since that would mean there was no commitment. Commitment isnt a feeling. It's a choice. You CHOOSE your partner, which is the healthy, adult way of leading a relationship. If you didn't change behavior although they communicated, then you are at fault and you NEED to acknowledge your part to prevent your next relationship to become toxic.

- And simply put: DOES ANY HUMAN BEING DESERVE TO BE CHEATED ON? No. Cheating IS abuse. Do not hold on the phantasyland! You most likely arent holding on the person but much rather on the routines, the processes, the shared living space, the safety and stability. NOT THE RELATIONSHIP ITSELF. If any of them cheat, the relationship was most likely already eroded from the inside out. And the affair made everything so much more ill, sick and vile. Theres no turning back from that.

Regarding the "upgraded" AP.

We gotta define what that means. It doesnt mean they are better than you. But we have to accept and understand that the AP sometimes is better for them. That's just reality. And denying that and demonizing everything and everybody is unhealthy for your personal journey.

If you cannot be happy for your ex, that they found someone more fitting to their lifestyle, at least understand that you do not fit their lifestyle or needs anymore. It is egoistical to believe you're entitled to another persons life, body or soul. Just as it was egoistical by them to believe it is okay to betray you and put you through this insane misery.

I know these are some hot takes for the forum here. But that's just my way of looking at it.

Please feel free to start a discussion in the comments, seriously. Let your perspective out, it might help other people, or it might be cathartic to your nervous system to get it all out.

Is this meant to be a joke?

I don't mean to be rude,but there is so much bullshit in the above post, it would take more time than I have to go through it,statement by statement.

It also sounds as if its written by "wonderful" WS,who has zero remorse.

I understand you're new and in pain. At the same time, it's important to follow the guidelines: GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.

** Not Writing As Staff **

I really hate overgeneralization. Very few of us, if any, have done studies of WSes and BSes. We know only what we've experienced, and we know only part of that. We may have talked with friends who have experienced betrayal, but we know even less about them. We may have read a lot about infidelity, but there are very few useful, reliable numbers about it. One widely quoted 'study' has some laughable number of couples - 9?- who admitted dealing with infidelity. That's not a large enough sample - it needs a couple of orders of magnitude more..

People don't heal from infidelity by associating themselves with generalizations that usually aren't valid anyway.

Even if you're in a minuscule minority, you have to deal with the problems you experience - and most of us have plenty of company in the nature of the betrayal we have to heal from. IOW, some of us think our WSes upgraded in some respects; some of us don't.

To heal from infidelity, a BS needs to identify their own triggers for anger, grief, fear, and shame and knock those triggers off one by one. Generalizing distances the BS from those triggers and therefore distances the BS from healing.

I've bumped a number of threads that now appear prominently on the first page of the JFO forum, including 'Honey, they always affair down'. I urge (re)reading those threads.

We WS's don't upgrade. We win the dubious prize of a relationship with someone who is likely to betray us as we betrayed our spouses. We also (per your post) downgrade ourselves with choosing to cheat and giving up our self esteem (if we ever had any).

I think a better use of your energy would be to focus on moving forward with your life. You learned a hard lesson on the damage neglect does to a relationship. HOWEVER, it appears that you're blaming yourself for your GF's choices. She had other choices. Now you do too. Move on, do better.

You got the chance to upgrade your life to find a partner who has a solid moral compass and boundary setting. Your exGF didn't set her boundary to your neglect.

A boundary works like this:
"I am feeling VERY neglected here in our relationship. I can't stand the loneliness and feeling like 2nd best to your work is killing me. To protect myself from this hurt, I need to:
A. see *SPECIFIC* changes by X time in our relationship,
or
B. I need to leave and find a partner who will treat me better and put me first."

A solid partner will communicate clearly like that and then back up their words with actions. You didn't have a solid partner.

Consider it a bullet dodged and a lesson learned. The self flagellation and self blaming/shaming is only wasting your time and energy. It's an avoidance strategy from the work you need to do: learn the lessons and work on yourself to heal and grow. It's a control strategy to cope with the utter lack of control you have had in your life: "if I can be PERFECT, I will never be abandoned again." That thinking is bullshit. You can't manipulate someone into loving you and staying loyal. Continue with that line of thinking and you'll become a manipulator to the point that you will fail as a partner in your next relationship.

I hope your next partner values YOU, warts and all and not some "perfect" version of yourself.

Don't let the "perfect" be the enemy of the good. You are NOT perfect, but you are GOOD and you can grow to become BETTER.

To heal from infidelity, a BS needs to identify their own triggers for anger, grief, fear, and shame and knock those triggers off one by one.

That is so true. Strong statement...

A boundary works like this:
"I am feeling VERY neglected here in our relationship. I can't stand the loneliness and feeling like 2nd best to your work is killing me. To protect myself from this hurt, I need to:
A. see *SPECIFIC* changes by X time in our relationship,
or
B. I need to leave and find a partner who will treat me better and put me first."

Unfortunately she did just that, and I still chose to ignore.

And that is what's eating me up. No matter where I when I talk to people the only argument is "well, did she communicate her needs or not?" and I'm like "yes she did and I still was too self absorbed and lazy to respect her needs."

Then I fall into an endless loop of denial.

- Why can I see so clearly NOW, when I didn't realize how much my complacency hurts her THEN -> I can never allow to take my SO for granted ever again -> Why cant she see that I absolutely learned from my mistake -> she cheated on me, there is no way back for us or our families to re-unite -> But at the same time I cannot stop obsessing about what happened -> LOOP -

I'm not trying to look for sympathy and I understand the only answer is to accept my mistakes, accept there is no way back, and move on.

But it just doesnt click for me.

I'm going insane. I hope at some point it'll just loosen up and vanish one day. I don't want to wake up for the rest of my life with her being the first thought on my mind.

DDG, your GF didn't set a boundary. She communicated (ok, good 1st step), but she didn't ACT. She told you clearly, but decided that exiting the relationship looked like having her cake (keeping her "normal") and eating it too (finding an outside lover without your consent).

She displayed avoidance and cowardice in avoiding moving out and moving on and cowardice in not telling you she's in love with someone else.

Yes, you fucked up. You were a shitty partner. So what? Where is this shame spiral taking you? What do you have to gain from beating yourself up. She was not a prize. If she had left you, made a clean break without "monkey branching," then yes, you could tell yourself you lost the love of your life and the woman of your dream. HOWEVER, SHE chose to cheat. SHE showed herself to be a shitty broken person, liar and coward. Are these the qualities of your dream woman? 'Cause I can tell you, I don't want that in any man of mine.

Grieve the death of the relationship. Part of grief is bargaining ("if only I had done XYZ, then ABC wouldn't have happened). In the end, it is something you need to move through. Wallowing is only a waste of your life.

Sounds like you need to set boundaries in yourself.

Have you looked into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy? It helped me change my thinking and gave me discipline to recognize shame spirals and work my way out of them. If you're not in IC, what are you waiting for? Eat ramen if you have to. Eggs and frozen peas and canned corn make it a meal.

DDG, your GF didn't set a boundary. She communicated (ok, good 1st step), but she didn't ACT.

That is actually a really good point... You're right. She also didn't want to loose our apartment and all that, I'm sure that was a reason for her to stay.

If you're not in IC, what are you waiting for?

I am in IC. Had my 2nd session today and will continue to do so for the next 60 weeks if I like the therapist. Like I've said, only had two sessions so far so it's been pretty much only diagnostics and superficial information. I hope it will help me, I truly do. And I am open for it.

DGG -

My XWH is a diagnosed covert narc. I clearly communicated boundaries, my needs in the relationship, etc.

HE was the one who stopped talking to me, withheld affection, withheld intimacy, withheld sex. I learned to never try talking while the TV was on. Otherwise, it was wait for a commercial and then say I needed to discuss something.

I would ask what he wanted for dinner and he wouldn't answer. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because we're both getting older, so I'd repeat the question louder. I asked him if he heard me the first time, and he said yes. I asked why he didn't answer, and he wouldn't answer...until one time he told me that he didn't want to.

He cheated and I didn't.

Also, there is brain chemistry involved for us BSs, too. For me, the intermittent reinforcement of affection caused a condition called trauma bonding. Some BS can have PTSD or CPTSD. The anxiety can cause severe health problems. You can't really compare one person's hurt to another's because we're all different and have different circumstances.

Going through this with my WS at this time. My (sexual and emotional intimacy) needs aren’t being met, and haven’t been for years.

I told him, and he has the option to change or not.

And I have the option to leave or not.

I do not have the option to edit or change a contract (marriage) which I made 23 years ago, unless I leave/break the contract (divorce).

That contract specifically stated in sickness and in health, until death do you part. I can legally break the contract with a divorce and leave the agreement, but it is not right to rewrite it. And lying is also not an option. Because I have morals.

But leaving is.

And this is why being wayward has NOTHING to do with unmet needs. Nothing.

I might divorce over unmet needs. But that’s not cheating.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 4:11 PM, Tuesday, August 29th]

Hmm let's see.... they left me, the loyal BS, to go fool around/fall in wuv/date/whatever with a cheating, lying POS who is doing insane amounts of damage to their spouse and kids.

And the ap "won" a cheater who had no issues with destroying a decent person to get some strange/ego kibbles/attention/whatever lie they told themselves to give themselves permission to do such a horrible thing.

Color me crazy, but none of that sounds like "winning" to me. That all sounds like an enormous dumpster fire that I want no part of.

So in answer to your topic question, I'm'a go ahead and say hell no they didn't upgrade.

DGG, your xwgf is sleeping with a married man. I highly doubt that he would leave his wife and children for her if push came to shove. He wouldn't risk having to pay alimony and child support and lose half his shit for a bedpost notch (which sadly is likely all your xwgf is to him). But you're right - he sounds absolutely perfect for her, so let him have her.

What has made us so unattractive that they lost so much respect, they could do such a thing? Let's face it: Yes, some cheaters are simply vile, demonic, reckless characters. But sometimes we, the betrayed, acted way out of the normal. Sometimes even toxic I suppose. Yes - probably because of childhood trauma we couldn't cope with at the time, but still. When I look back at how I acted the last year of my relationship, it was totally understandable that she left. Which does NOT EXCUSE cheating! I am not saying that. BUT! People are imperfect. We make mistakes. They make mistakes. Sometimes both parties contributed evenly to the burned-to-ashes relationship. Neither of us are bad / evil people, per se.

Nope. No. Nooooooo to all of this.

*Climbs onto box of soap*
*Whips out huge megaphone*
*Feedback noise*
1. It doesn't matter how the betrayed acted or not, the cheater still made choice to cheat instead of exiting the relationship.
2. Cheating is NOT A MISTAKE, it is a series of hundreds and thousands of conscious choices. All of which are shitty, awful, selfish, horrible, and devastating for everyone involved.
3. No matter how "bad" the relationship is/was, the ws still made a choice to have an affair and to do the maximum amount of damage to the maximum amount of people instead of doing the right thing and exiting the relationship.
4. Cheating isn't about the BS, it is about the character of the ws.
*Thank you for coming to my ted talk*

DGG, YOU did not CAUSE her to cheat. Period. I don't care if you actually were the largest asshole in the universe and treated her like garbage, nothing you did or did not do MADE her cheat. SHE did that, SHE chose that, and it has NOTHING to do with you - it is about her lack of character and integrity. That is 100% ON HER. If you truly were as bad as you say, then work on you. Learn for YOU. Get better for YOU. Do that so YOU can show up for yourself going forward. Stick with the IC so you can get some help unpacking here. It's normal that you're hurting and not ok right now - infidelity is enormously traumatic for the BS and it takes time to heal from it.

What is missing inside of US, that we feel so desperate and in despair because of ONE person? That is not normal. I want to emphasize on that. It is NOT normal to react the way most of us here do.

Wrong. It is absolutely 100% normal to be utterly devastated by our partner's infidelity. Many people have described the pain and trauma as worse than anything they've ever experienced.

If you didn't change behavior although they communicated, then you are at fault and you NEED to acknowledge your part to prevent your next relationship to become toxic.

Wrong. No BS is ever at fault for the choice that their WS made to cheat. Ever. The BS may share blame for a bad marriage, but they are in no way in control of their WS's actions.

If any of them cheat, the relationship was most likely already eroded from the inside out. And the affair made everything so much more ill, sick and vile. Theres no turning back from that.

Wrong. Plenty of WSs and BSs have shared here that their marriage was happy before infidelity. It's not a problem with the relationship that causes someone to betray the person to whom they've made a commitment, it's a problem within themselves.

And many people DO turn back from that, reconcile, and go on to have a good marriage post-infidelity.

We gotta define what that means. It doesnt mean they are better than you. But we have to accept and understand that the AP sometimes is better for them. That's just reality.

There are some people who go on to marry their AP, sure, but I would venture a guess that most APs are not an upgrade. Mine certainly wasn't. H's wasn't. They were just people who paid attention to the WS and fed their ego. My H said that he felt "less than" me, so downgrading to AP felt almost easier. You might define that as a better fit for him, but that's like saying that a drug dealer is a better fit for an addict than their sober spouse.

Since you’re also a betrayed partner, I don’t want to dump on you. I know how awful the pain of betrayal is. But you’re projecting your pain and doubts on to other BSs. NONE OF US are responsible for our WS A. The AP is never, ever an upgrade. They have the same lousy morals and selfishness that our WSs had. Not one person on this earth is a perfect partner and still- none of us deserve this pain. Betrayal trauma is just that- TRAUMA. We are not weaker because we were hurt so deeply by someone who vowed to love and protect us. We deserved that love and protection and our lives were blown to bits by our partners instead.

I’m sorry you are hurting but please refrain from offering "advice" to other BSs. Your words are hurtful and offensive.

The true question you should be asking is whether it really matters. Does it change a thing that has happened if its true or not?

Cheating isn’t an upgrade. Ever. Someone who cheats, and someone who cheated with a married person isn’t upgrading anything. They are cheating. Why put so much stock on someone who doesn’t care about anyone else but themselves?

Betrayed partners didn’t cause this. I am so tired of fighting this trope. The circumstances of the relationship are not an excuse to cheat. Relationships have down points, they have times where one partner isn’t giving their all. Hell, maybe even they are being shitty and neglecting, still isn’t enough to cheat. That’s the point. Marriage vows are to forsake all others, for better or for worse. That’s the point of being married, that no matter what happens the two spouses will work together or they will end the relationship together.

What do you think an affair relationship is? It’s not special. It’s two people who make a secret relationship based on lies, deception, misinformation, and abuse of people who they claim to love. Most often the relationship is a façade, a fantasy and based on limited interactions surrounded by secrecy. Two people who have a dirty secret and are in conspiracy against others who have no idea. That’s not an upgrade. Most data on these relationships say that the majority end. Like %75. They aren’t real. And remember, if they will cheat with you, they will likely cheat on you as well.

You’re new here, but there is a whole sub group of people who view adultery as a lifestyle, who enjoy the idea of cheating and getting away with it. Tons of excuses. Dead bedroom, lack of connection, not emotionally available, whatever. Nothing but excuses. They won’t actually end the relationship, but will gladly cheat and learn from others on best ways to keep it a secret so they can keep their relationship and cheat at the same time. They view people who they claim to love as non playable characters in their game where they are the main character, and only really care about what they feel. Not an upgrade.

You are so hung up on your ex, you can’t see who she really is. Again, she is having fun with a married man with kids. He absolutely sucks, but she isn’t any better. You think she cares how his wife feels? The Other betrayed spouse did nothing wrong, and she doesn’t deserve this, yet now she is thrown into this madness in part because of your ex. Is that an upgrade? The answer is no.

You haven’t responded to me at all, but I am going to say it again. Tell the wife, she deserves to know. You fought tooth and nail to get your answer, don’t be selfish and hold onto the truth. Think of her feelings, of her health. Give her the agency and choice she deserves to have. Do the right thing, not for revenge against AP or your ex, but to allow a BW to know what she actually has.

I agree with some of your points, and vehemently disagree with others.

And our only choice now should be to reflect on our behavior to prevent this from happening / increase our value to our next partner.

It is a natural reaction to trauma to seek safety, but being cheated on has nothing to do with "our value to our partner" and everything to do with their inability to handle conflict or life's stresses in a healthy way. It's an illusion to think that we can "improve" ourselves into safety. We cannot control other people, and sometimes being hurt is the price of love.

What has made us so unattractive that they lost so much respect, they could do such a thing?

Again, it's comforting to think that if we can just make ourselves so attractive and increase our value, we'll never be cheated on again, but this is victim-blaming. Of course I agree with you that none of us is perfect and we've all made mistakes, but none of that matters when it comes to cheating. The fact is that most cheaters are "happy" in their relationships and want to maintain them . . . hence the decision to cheat rather than to leave. It's a lack of empathy, self-control, and morality that leads some people to cross the line into cheating, not a lack of value or attractiveness in their mate.

It is NOT normal to react the way most of us here do.

I hope you will retract this statement because it's unhelpful and may cause others to blame themselves. It's 100% normal to react this way because infidelity is trauma. I am an emotionally healthy person with good self-esteem. On DDay I immediately told my husband that he could go be with the OW because I was confident I could find a quality person for myself and he didn't seem to deserve me any more. My self-respect and confidence in myself have nothing to do with how horrible it is to have your life partner and best friend stab you in the back, gaslight you, blame you, etc. Those are deep wounds which, again, are sometimes the price of loving other humans. Your primal sense of safety has been snatched from you and you react on a deep, subconscious level to attempt to regain that safety (hence, I would say, the self-blaming you are doing here).

I agree that there's no need to compare yourself to the AP. I wouldn't want the AP to be a hideous loser, because what would that say about my husband? The crime is that you've been placed in a ridiculous love triangle without your consent. We're all humans with the beautiful things that make us unique, and our foibles and baggage as well. But this is a safe space where of course we understand each other's need to vent about the AP. This is no way means that a person isn't healing or doesn't have good self-esteem. Even a saint would be tested by having an AP weasel into their marriage.

I also agree that the cheater has tainted themselves and will be forever impacted by their choices. So it should be when we cause great harm.

It sounds like you are realizing ways in which you were not a good boyfriend, and I'll trust you to know if that was the case. But don't take your situation and apply it to all others. There's not some magic threshold of bad-boyfriend-ness above which it's OK to cheat. If a relationship is unhealthy or unfulfilling, you leave. You never get a free pass to cheat.

The attraction of self blame for the BS is a sense of control.

I'm not excusing bad behavior on the part of a BS. However, nothing you can do controls the actions of another person. Your WS chose to cheat. Your actions may have been partial motivation. The permission a WS gives themself to be selfish and dishonest comes from within.

Where do I even start with this?

It is egoistical to believe you're entitled to another persons life, body or soul. Just as it was egoistical by them to believe it is okay to betray you and put you through this insane misery.

Really? So by your logic it was egotistical of me to expect my WH to honor and respect the vows he took on our wedding day as I have. Is that right? Excuse me but what's egotistical is the mindset of a cheater who thinks they should be able to step out on a relationship.

And our only choice now should be to reflect on our behavior to prevent this from happening / increase our value to our next partner.

Reflect on MY behavior? Let's see, I was loyal, loved him, dealt with an extraordinary amount of BS from him, was a good wife and mother to our kids. Did everything I could to communicate with him to no avail. I was treated like shit while he did whatever he wanted so no, I'll be damned if I reflect on my behavior.

Cheating is not a mistake. It never is, it's a choice made by the WS. Dismissing it as such is extremely off point and honestly insulting to the BS.

The AP is not an upgrade, they are merely people who for whatever reason are comfortable with playing a role in destroying a relationship or marriage. Possibly destroying families. They're comfortable with deception and lies and sneaking around. They're just as selfish and wrapped in a cloak of entitlement as the WS is. Again this statement is an insult to every single BS here, and I highly doubt any would say the AP was an upgrade. Perhaps you should read the Honey They Always Affair Down thread that has been on this forum a long time and for good reason. It's because when first facing infidelity we often ask what was wrong with us, is the AP better, and the answer is no. They were just low hanging fruit available for picking.

What is missing inside of US, that we feel so desperate and in despair because of ONE person? That is not normal. I want to emphasize on that. It is NOT normal to react the way most of us here do.

Oh I beg to differ because this quite possibly is your most offensive remark. Who are you to decide what is normal for us to feel? When I came to SI I felt like I was losing my mind and though heart broken was extremely comforted by the knowledge that everything I was feeling was normal. That there was actually terms for what I was experiencing. When you are married to someone you have chosen to build a life and family with and they drop the infidelity bomb on all of it the desperation to understand and the despair of heart break is absolutely normal. One hundred percent NORMAL.

If that's the case, as it is the same with my ex and her AP - yes, they upgraded.

No, they didn’t.

She downgraded herself-as you well explained, and wound up with some dude with serious character flaws who has no problem burning you, his wife and family. What these two are doing is not a healthy wholesome way to end one relationship and begin another. It’s self, mutually and collaterally destructive.

She may have initiated step-1 of the problem resolution process, a process that usually involves many degrees of a progressive use of quality improvement efforts with benchmarks or, she could just skip all the steps and go straight to the final step, FORMALLY ending the relationship, but no, she instead chose to keep you on the payroll and banish you to the basement with your red Swingline stapler.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 5:48 PM, Wednesday, August 30th]

How many stories havecwecread on this site, where the BS bends themselves into pretzels trying to be a better partner to a spouse who, unbeknownst to the BS, is actively engaged in an A and subconsciously or consciously sabotaging their primary relationship in order to retroactively justify their choice to cheat? The BS will read books and articles, seek IC, MC, try new things, etc in order to beca better partner, assuming their own behaviour is the root cause of the relationship tension.

Now how many times do we see that same BS think, hey, my M is totally unfulfilled for me, I guess the only option is to cheat?

You were both in the same physical relationship even if you were not privy to all of the pertinant information about her behaviour, and you did not cheat. This is why it is a her problem and not a you or our problem.