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Betrayed Womenz Thread

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gmc94 posted 5/19/2019 11:41 AM

I work hard to look decent so I can respect myself. It isn't to gain respect from him or anyone else. The content of my character hopefully keeps me sane. I will continue to age and to look differently but I subscribe to the Brene Brown philosophy that my light, all of our lights, will come shining through if we continue to live with integrity.
Yup. But for me, this has come post dday.

For years I've struggled with the idea (or knowledge?) that I kind of intentionally put myself in a place to make myself non-sexual (weight gain, dowdy clothes fit for a great grandma even if I was only 40, etc). I never thought it had a thing to do with my WH, but as a professional woman to be seen for me and not my sexuality. I don't think this is the only reason (emotional eating anyone?), but it was a big factor. The desire to be seen for ME and my brain and heart and creativity and badassness and everything else that makes me ME - but NOT for my sexuality.

Men - esp older men - are not judged on their fuckability. Women - from birth to grave - are. I think it is getting better (the aging baby boomer generation helps I think), but not great. Powerful women in the news must still deal with comments about how their hair looks, or if their clothing choice was appropriate. Old fat guys can still be in giants in their fields (esp media), but women? Not so much (what was the line... babe, madam district attorney and driving ms. daisy?).

I think this need/desire to be seen for me and not sexually contributed to the devastation of dday. My sexuality / sexual self was not for anyone other than my WH. It was not shared (in any respect) with anyone other than my WH. So to find that he had no qualms about sharing his sexuality with others was another deep layer of my soul crushed. I wonder if I'd been in my 30s or 40s on dday if it would have made a difference - I'll never know, but suspect I would have been quick to file for D at a time when I felt I had more years in front of me than in the rearview.

Now? I'm with ISSF. Last week I was at a banguet thing and a former male colleague told me I looked great - that I was "glowing". He's right. But I don't think it has a damned thing to do with exercise, weight loss, makeup or new clothes. I think it is because I have used dday as an opportunity to look inward.... to learn to like myself as a person wholly separate from my WH, my kids, my M and any other external factor. Every day I work on me I love myself more. That feels good. THAT is what glows, whether you are a size 2 or a size 22. Maybe I'll never lose the 40 lbs I'd still like to take off. Maybe I'll gain 40 instead. But I just feel in my bones that if I love myself, that inner glow and confidence will never dissipate.

Frack - I edited and lost whole paragraphs (everything after an emoji - WTH?) ... didn't recreate it very well.... sigh.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:06 PM, May 19th, 2019 (Sunday)]

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/23/2019 15:47 PM

So, I may or may not have gotten in trouble in another thread. I didn't get a PM, so that's a good sign. But, the thread has been locked. I didn't look to see if there were any posts after mine. I don't need to get all worked up about something that I can't do anything about.

Anyway, I basically said that I refuse to support WPs on here. I am here to support BPs. I cannot give kudos to someone who figured out their shit only after cheating. They should've figured out their shit instead of cheating.

I won't be nasty or disrespectful, but I'm not going to tell them they are awesome. Some people seemed to be bothered by that. Is that wrong?

Want2BHappyAgain posted 5/23/2019 19:55 PM

cocoplus5nuts...if that is how you feel...there is nothing wrong with it...as long as we are all civil to one another...like you said . I have seen some WSís who come on here and at first are still in that Wayward mindset. I donít go near their threads because they are still toxic people. I do try to help those BSís who are so RAW when they first come here seeking help. That feeling I can relate to.

I have seen on one thread where a BH lumped ALL women as cheaters if the ďright wordsĒ were used . Heck... I used to think that all men were DOGS and if a man was given a chance to cheat without his wife ever finding out...ALL men would go for that chance. I have changed my mind on that since I have been on this site ...thanks to some wonderful BHís on here .

We ALL have our own opinions and that is what makes this site so nice. We can find common ground with SOMEONE on here . But we certainly donít have to agree with everyone on here.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/23/2019 20:22 PM

Thanks. I was surprised that some members, mostly BHes and WWs, got upset by what I said. Told me I am supposed to support everyone on here. I don't understand why they would care so much what I think or do as long as I'm not bashing people. I'm sure I'd get a PM from admin for something like that.

DevastatedDee posted 5/23/2019 20:26 PM

Cocoplus5nuts, I have a really hard time congratulating anyone for achieving the bare fucking minimum of human decency. I can be glad that they did because that makes the world a better place, but yeah...my expectations aren't so low as to give a cookie because someone found some empathy.

It reminds me of something my daughter asked me today. She has screwed up in school all year long and I figure she's not going to pass. She doesn't deserve to pass her grade. She asked me what she would get if she did manage to pull out all the stops and pass this year. I said "you get the reward of not spending an extra year in high school. You're not getting congrats from me because this shouldn't even be a thing to worry about.". Duh.

Want2BHappyAgain posted 5/24/2019 04:21 AM

Thatís funny...people bashing you for not being supportive... and they didnít realize that THEY werenít being supportive towards YOU !

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/24/2019 19:43 PM

Exactly, DD! Kudos to you for finally deciding to be a decent human being.

Another thing that's been bothering is that someone said she wished she could just drop the OW label because of all the work she has done. Nope, it doesn't work that way. I assume that my fch will always be considered an OM to the OBS. I would expect that. If I find put someone I know was an AP, I'm not going to know them anymore. They need to stay away from me and my family. I think everyone understands that. That's why we don't go around telling people, "Yeah, I cheated on my spouse, but I'm ok now. I've done a lot of work."

It's made me consider starting a thread entitled, Once an AP, always an AP. But, that's probably not in good taste, so I won't.

SpeedBump posted 5/24/2019 23:31 PM

Coco, man was that thread triggery for me. I was, and to some degree still am, seriously upset by it. Oh the "poor me, I'm not your OW" pity party of those waywards about did me in and I'm already as raw as can be from my own WH's A. I just wanted to say thanks for standing up to them. I don't know why but those threads disappeared from my view but I'm glad they did. I don't need to obsess about that on top of everything else. The fact they would not and could not see their hypocrisy was astounding to me.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks!

[This message edited by SpeedBump at 11:33 PM, May 24th (Friday)]

DevastatedDee posted 5/25/2019 00:08 AM

The part that I found triggery was delicate feelings stuff. I get why that got to me. My WH was a special delicate snowflake who would get self-pitying and sometimes downright suicidal when I was particularly blunt about how his cheating affected me. Boo hoo, precious. For me, had I been a pure WH, I would hope that my response would have been "As traumatized as you have been by people like me, I understand you being suspicious and put off." Empathy and humility.

Just because someone didn't fuck your particular husband doesn't mean that they weren't of the same ilk as the one(s) who did.

silverhopes posted 5/25/2019 03:01 AM

Came back here in hopes of finding some sort of answer to some confusing things lately (as we do), and wound up checking out the aforementioned thread. I have noticed the dynamics spoken of - also, a long-term pattern I've seen has been that the threads with the most replies on them are nearly always those started by BHs or WWs. As BWs who have been silenced in many ways by our WHs infidelities, it can feel like being silenced even more to see that pattern.

Take heart in the people who answer. We may not get as many replies, but the people who do reply care.

I've heard people say that it's a great time to be a women, but it doesn't feel that way. Along with #metoo came the backlash, the accusations that women are liars or are making mountains out of molehills, or making it so that men can't even talk to them anymore - so much blame, on top of blame we already carry. It exposed the deeper problems of seeing women as being less credible, or being the ones who "ruin everything" by complaining. Or at least, that's what I've been experiencing lately. This feeling that as a woman, I will always be the problem.

So I get angry. That makes me feel more masculine. Because they don't talk about anger is human, just as much feminine as it is masculine.

Anyone ever wish they could purge the words "man" and "woman" from their brains? Knowing that everyone is suffering and that both men and women carry things they shouldn't have to that are directly related to gender, and people who are genderfluid as well. Just be ourselves. Stop being measured against ideas of gender for anyone. Stop hearing gender being used as an excuse. I am so sick of it.

Does anyone feel as lost as I am?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:02 AM, May 25th (Saturday)]

northeasternarea posted 5/25/2019 07:25 AM

Romans 2:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I donít think any of us would want to be defined by the worst thing that we have ever done. What I see is increasing attacks and nastiness when people donít agree or dislike another poster for whatever reason.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/25/2019 15:26 PM

I donít think any of us would want to be defined by the worst thing that we have ever done.

What we want and what happens are 2 different things. Of course, they don't want to be forever known as the OW, but they are. I'm sure sex offenders don't want to be recognized from the registry everywhere they go, but that's life. It's about protecting ourselves from predators.

Silver hopes, I don't understand what you are saying. There are differences between men and women. I think it's important to recognize and respect those differences. To say there shouldn't we shouldn't recognize man or woman is like saying we shouldn't see color.

The pity party for the OWs drives me nuts. I got pissed that one person said I was being too sensitive, especially since I'm reconciled. The reconciled with my fch, not with OWs. Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Btw, I feel the same about OMs. I have no respect.

Oh, and I'm silencing myself by feeling that way? Huh?

HeHadADoubleLife posted 5/25/2019 17:28 PM

Oh man Coco, I hear you and agree with how difficult it is to watch the BH/WW dynamic. Just a note, my whole post will be hetero-normative, because that is the dynamic I'm speaking to. Obviously there are other posters here who are not in the same boat, but the BH/WW dynamic I and others have noticed seem to be exclusively between hetero members.

I've never seen a single poster praised so magnanimously as HikingOut.

I too have found great insight in many of her posts. There are many BWs and a few BHs whose opinions I value equally as much. I try to make my gratitude for each of these posters known, regardless of their B or W status.

But it seems there are more than a few BHs here who see her as their guiding light, and don't really value input from very many others. Or at the very least don't express their gratitude in such obvious ways as they do with the WWs.

I do believe that this comes from wanting answers from their own WWs, and seeking them from other women who were in similar positions does seem reasonable to an extent. I myself have found that I seek out posts from the WWs (the ones who have been here a while, not the ones who are still foggy and unaccountable) because there aren't too many WHs here, so I don't get to hear the wayward perspective very often unless it's coming from a woman.

My XH had an exit A and is still with his AP, currently calling her his girlfriend and trying to introduce her to all of our mutual friends, so I've never gotten any level of accountability from him. I truly wish I had that kind of closure. Though I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as satisfying in real life as it sounds in my head - words are just words, no matter what he says, he can't unfuck her - but I can see how hearing that accountability articulated, even if it's not from your own spouse, could be intoxicating.

But it does seem one sided. Any time the BWs chime in on anything sex related we are Shut. Down. As if we couldn't possibly have enjoyed having sex with our husbands, or have been hurt by the sexual aspect of the betrayal. That we are not sexual beings, we are just sexual gate keepers. We are just using sex to lure in our husbands, and then are turning off the tap for no reason. God forbid you be able to enjoy sex with your spouse, but also see that sex is not the be all and end all of your relationship. Or that your sex life might be dwindling because sex is a reflection of the love you show each other in all other aspects of your relationship, it is NOT love itself. Talk about black and white thinking, damn.

Then when we try to explain how sex should not be the only thing you focus on because sex =/= love, most of them won't listen. WorstClubEver wrote one of the most eloquent posts I've ever seen here regarding the BWs and how hurt we are by the focus on sex as the only thing that many BHs seem to care about or focus on. I still have it bookmarked and read it every once in a while, just to feel understood. She had dozens of responses from BWs thanking her for writing something that so adequately expressed what so many of us were feeling, that sex =/= love, and that implying that it does makes it all the more hurtful.

Then Hiking Out gets RideItOut to admit that for him sex = love, then explained to him that it's not, and now all of a sudden it's like there is some epiphany happening. As if we BWs haven't been shouting from the roof tops all along "Hey, BHs, it's pretty plain to see that you are viewing sex as equal to love, but sex =/= love, trust us!" Then we are either ignored, or told how wrong we are. I often times feel that if I just wrote that I was a WW, my opinion would be perceived with more value. HO herself has even pointed this out to the BHs, how they are not listening to women who are clearly telling them these things, because they are too stubborn to hear it.

I think the thing that the BHs aren't seeing about how that dynamic is hurtful, is that given that most WHs don't post very often, the best surrogate we have for our husbands here are the BHs. In fact, the BHs often stand for who we THOUGHT our WHs were, before we discovered the A - honest and faithful. And then we are watching these supposedly honest and faithful men chat it up with and heap praise on our sworn enemies - the women who were complicit in our betrayal.

As always, Devastated Dee, you speak my own mind for me!

Just because someone didn't fuck your particular husband doesn't mean that they weren't of the same ilk as the one(s) who did.

I have also praised WWs for the insight they provide and the work they have done. Edie and I even exchanged a couple of posts because in my attempt to not dismiss WWs opinions outright (a cardinal sin to all BHs, one that will get you ignored forthwith!) I praised them too much myself. It is a very fine line to walk. If you say something that might be considered disparaging to a WW, you are shunt by some BHs. I do appreciate people who are doing the work to become better people. But damn if I wish we didn't act like you should get brownie points for being a decent human being.

Another thing DevastatedDee said rang true for me:

It reminds me of something my daughter asked me today. She has screwed up in school all year long and I figure she's not going to pass. She doesn't deserve to pass her grade. She asked me what she would get if she did manage to pull out all the stops and pass this year. I said "you get the reward of not spending an extra year in high school. You're not getting congrats from me because this shouldn't even be a thing to worry about.". Duh.

When I was in a more bitter place with my SA XH, he was going through this phase where he wanted all of this praise for having gone a few weeks without masturbating with my underwear. He started hitting on me and tried to insinuate that he had "earned" it. I went out to my craft cupboard, grabbed some stickers, and came back to the room and slapped a star sticker on his vanity mirror and said "Congratulations, you have the self control of a kindergartner! Here's a gold fucking star for your efforts."

Also, on another, but still related note - God forbid we bring up bodily autonomy!! We are labeled the "bodily autonomy crew" as if that is some kind of insult? If that means that I will defend someone's right to bodily autonomy no matter what her position, B or W, then I'll wear that badge with fucking honor my friend! I think it was BraveSirRobin who brought up that if we are willing to defend the WWs right to it, even though they are probably the closest to our sworn enemies that you could get, then that should show how much we fucking believe in it!

Sorry. I'm supposed to be using this long weekend to finally start unpacking, and instead am feeling all the feels. End rant.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/25/2019 19:24 PM

I went out to my craft cupboard, grabbed some stickers, and came back to the room and slapped a star sticker on his vanity mirror...

I love this!

I can't quite figure out why the recent BH/WW dynamic is bothering me. I don't think that Hikingout is doing anything purposely to get that kind of attention. She does say a lot of good things. I think part of it is that it does seem like the BWs are dismissed. Many times, I've seen where a BW says the same thing as a WW. The BW's post is ignored while the WW's post is praised. I think, also, sometimes it seems almost like someone has a crush. I'm sure they are projecting onto the WWs.

And, yeah, the whole sex thing drives me crazy! The BS that the sex is so painful for the BHes because they are Male that we can't possibly understand it. So not true. I needed to know all the details about the sex because I needed to know if my fch did things with the OW that I thought was only special to me. If he had done those things with her, I don't think I would ever want to do them with him again.

It seems to me that the male dynamic on this site has changed from when I first joined. I don't remember there being praise like this doled out to WWs. I definitely don't remember all of this sexist, possibly misogynistic, stuff. That really bothers me. The old time males don't engage in that. I have seen some new BHs attack an old member who has always been nothing but helpful for something that he didn't do.

DevastatedDee posted 5/25/2019 19:40 PM

When I was in a more bitter place with my SA XH, he was going through this phase where he wanted all of this praise for having gone a few weeks without masturbating with my underwear. He started hitting on me and tried to insinuate that he had "earned" it. I went out to my craft cupboard, grabbed some stickers, and came back to the room and slapped a star sticker on his vanity mirror and said "Congratulations, you have the self control of a kindergartner! Here's a gold fucking star for your efforts."

I love you.

DevastatedDee posted 5/25/2019 19:43 PM

And, yeah, the whole sex thing drives me crazy! The BS that the sex is so painful for the BHes because they are Male that we can't possibly understand it. So not true.

That bugs the crap out of me too. Like the sex isn't a big deal to us but the words are?? Please. For me, and we're all different, if he'd been saying just words, I'd have had a much easier time with it than actually placing his penis inside other people. Like we're all asexual beings who only care about feelings. As if only the men care about sex and actually enjoy it. It is such a ridiculous and blatantly false stereotype that I keep checking the calendar to make sure that it's actually 2019 and not 1912.

Oh, and like their WWs were just fooled by the slick words of a player and didn't actually want to have sex with the OMs. You know, because all we wimmins want is pretty words, chocolate and flowers. We don't like that dirty dirty sex stuff.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 7:45 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]

silverhopes posted 5/25/2019 20:50 PM

Silver hopes, I don't understand what you are saying. There are differences between men and women. I think it's important to recognize and respect those differences. To say there shouldn't we shouldn't recognize man or woman is like saying we shouldn't see color.

I'm sorry. I wasn't making much sense - when I get emotional, it all comes out in a jumble. I've been exposed to a lot of misogyny lately, is what I mean. And I know that men are mistreated in many ways in society as well - I'm not trying to say that one is worse than the other.

As a woman, I'm finding myself deeply affected by the misogyny as of late, to the point where I'm wondering, just what is good about being a woman anyway? We can't want sex without being shamed or dismissed as not having as great or relevant libidos as men do (this stereotype alone angers me so badly that it's the main reason why I keep taking breaks from SI, because unfortunately that one particular thing keeps coming up on certain threads, and it triggers me so badly), then if we goodness forbid happen to be survivors of sexual assault then we must have either asked for it (which makes no sense - aren't we constantly assumed to lack a sex drive, up until the moment we're assaulted, then suddenly we're presumed to have one?!) or not done enough to prevent it, or else we're "making a big deal about nothing". If we want to work in various fields then we're somehow "feminizing" or changing things. If we talk about things that upset us, then we're "bitching and complaining". And we're never "good enough" as wives or mothers. I hear so much criticism that I forget: what does society respect and admire about women again? Are we valued or even liked at all?

I feel utterly overwhelmed by the generalizations and criticisms we face as women. That's all. I don't have a clear point, really, just venting I suppose.

But it does seem one sided. Any time the BWs chime in on anything sex related we are Shut. Down. As if we couldn't possibly have enjoyed having sex with our husbands, or have been hurt by the sexual aspect of the betrayal. That we are not sexual beings, we are just sexual gate keepers.

Like we're all asexual beings who only care about feelings. As if only the men care about sex and actually enjoy it. It is such a ridiculous and blatantly false stereotype that I keep checking the calendar to make sure that it's actually 2019 and not 1912.

This, and this.

Many times, I've seen where a BW says the same thing as a WW. The BW's post is ignored while the WW's post is praised.

Been seeing this too, especially on the epically long threads where the gender-alizations abound. Maybe it's in my head, but it seems like the generalizations start with guys saying that either we don't understand something because it's a male thing, or asking why "all women" think/argue a certain way. Manages to lump all women into one category and simultaneous dismiss those opinions - or at least if those are BW's opinions. Very off-putting.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 8:54 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]

HeHadADoubleLife posted 5/25/2019 20:52 PM

I think part of it is that it does seem like the BWs are dismissed. Many times, I've seen where a BW says the same thing as a WW. The BW's post is ignored while the WW's post is praised. I think, also, sometimes it seems almost like someone has a crush. I'm sure they are projecting onto the WWs.

^^^ Yup! I've had this happen on a few occasions, I know you ladies have too. I tend to long post, and people get put off by that and just don't read it, so whatever, that's fine. But then again reading one long post from me or some other BW, vs. all 50 of HO's posts on one thread, probably shorter to just read the one longer post, no? Hhmmm, me thinks someone has some fanboyzz.

I do think some of it is that people are seeking validation for their own thoughts, so they seek out the usernames of the members they already know, whose opinions they already generally agree with, and only read those ones. Or at the very least only really respond to those ones.

Like those who read every single one of RIO's posts, which are essentially all saying the same thing - hey WW, go fuck your BH every which way from Tuesday, that's what he needs to heal!

Like we're all asexual beings who only care about feelings. As if only the men care about sex and actually enjoy it. It is such a ridiculous and blatantly false stereotype that I keep checking the calendar to make sure that it's actually 2019 and not 1912.

I think this is the hard part for me personally. I would hope that we all care about BOTH things - sex and feelings - but that we recognize that they are two separate, albeit linked, things! One does not equal the other, and yet I can be equally hurt by both betrayals, even if the hurt feels different.

I often see BHs referring to women as sexual gate keepers - but they don't tend to look inward as to why their spouse might be withholding sexually, which really grinds my gears. Look, they definitely shouldn't have fucked another person, that was 100% not the solution to your marital issues, sexual or otherwise, but don't you want to get to the bottom of why she is withholding? And same for the BWs who had husbands who were withholding. There is bound to be a reason deep down in there!

I made this point, about how a woman might have done certain sexual things in her A that were actually better understood as symptoms of how fucked up she was at the time, and so maybe we should be looking into why you would want to do something with someone that is clearly a symptom of their wayward mindset. And I was jumped on about how "nobody would ever ask a man why he would do those things with his AP and not with his BW, they would just tell him to do it or get out." And my question is, why the hell wouldn't we be asking those questions? I mean wouldn't you want to know WHY your spouse wanted to do those things with someone other than you? Wouldn't that provide some great insight into what the hell is going on that made them feel entitled to have an A? And if that act they were participating in during the A was actually something they felt really degraded by, or affected their self esteem, would you seriously want your wayward to continue doing it, just so you can say you got what the other guy got? That feels more like marking your territory than love to me, but that's just my personal opinion

Personally I feel that a lot of men are not socialized to deal with feelings, so it is easier for them to equate their feelings with sex and call it a day, which is why they want to just make it all about the sex, because they feel like addressing the sex is also addressing their feelings. Like it's a simple "solution" to all of the messy stuff that comes up when an A happens. Oh, s/he had an A? It must be about the sex!

I rarely see new BWs on here who really, truly think that their WH's did it just for the sex. I feel that for the most part we instinctually know that isn't true. I think the BHs who focus so much on the sex really want it to be that simple, and so cannot fathom that someone would have sex for something other than just the sex.

I'm not saying that sex isn't a huge part of the healing, it is. But to act like it's the only part is just reductive. I really relate to what gmc said here:

The desire to be seen for ME and my brain and heart and creativity and badassness and everything else that makes me ME - but NOT for my sexuality.

I know RIO was the most vocal about this, but many men here chimed in with similar sentiments - that sex was/is the only thing their wife provides that they can't outsource to other people, i.e. friends, family, colleagues, maids, mechanics etc. That shit pisses me right off. If my XH ever told me that the only difference between his relationship with his mom, or his brother, or his groomsman and his relationship with me is that he can fuck me, then he can go buy himself a silicon vagina and fuck that until the end of time, because he sure ain't fucking me.

Sorry, as you can probably tell, I'm at the six month mark and have clearly moved into the anger phase

SisterMilkshake posted 5/25/2019 21:41 PM

My sistahs! ❤️❤️❤️❤️

SisterMilkshake posted 5/25/2019 21:41 PM

oops! double posted! ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:43 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]

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