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Betrayed Womenz Thread

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cocoplus5nuts posted 5/27/2019 09:21 AM

BH on BH attacks are bad, too. A lot of it seems to be directed at sisoon, which I don't get. He has always been so helpful. I read an old thread where they really went at him. I couldn't believe it.

DD, that's exactly how I feel about praising the WSes.

WRT sex drive, I went through HB, initially. Now, it's back to normal. Mine has always been higher than my fch's.

silverhopes posted 5/27/2019 10:54 AM

HeHadADoubleLife, thank you. I am so sorry he treated you that way. Him saying things like "misogyny doesn't exist unless you talk about it. continuing to talk about it just breathes life into it" to you comes across as gaslighting. That's a different way of saying "the problems are all in your head."

Sometimes I feel like that is what a lot of men think our emotions are - just a game. They want to see how far they can push it.

I never realized this before. I think you're right, and it baffles me how I haven't seen it. It's definitely a control thing. There have been times where I've felt like some guys regard women's emotions and opinions based on those emotions as an "inconvenience" to them, but some guys seem to go the extra step into provocations. That seems psychologically abusive to me.

And yes, my XH shamed me for the amount of sexual partners I had prior to him. Tried to say that he had only had sex with 5 or 6 women in his whole life, which I find incredibly hard to believe given his sexual compulsions. But when I claim sex with upwards of 15 men, he tries to make that into a bad thing, that he had no idea I was so "promiscuous," but then also simultaneously use it against me when I wasn't in the mood.

Ugh. That's another way of sexual objectification. I don't quite know how to word it, but when people act that way about another person's past, it gives me the creeps. You're a person. For him to say those things sounds like he was in his own head with a version of you he constructed, rather than being with the true flesh and blood present you who was in front of him. I am so sorry he treated you that way. Shame on HIM for shaming you!

Um, contrary to popular belief, I am the only one who gets to decide when and with whom I have sex. I can have a high sex drive, and also not want to have sex with you at any given moment - shocking, I know!

Exactly!

How about we all start gushing over DaddyDom and Zugs and see how that goes over?

No, I wouldn't disrespect their wives that way. I couldn't even imagine how uncomfortable and triggery that would be for them. Though I do wonder how long it would take for folks to spot the bad boundaries once the shoe were on the other foot. When several BWs bring up bad boundaries, you'd think others would take us seriously, since that's one of the main themes of this site.

Same goes for some of the BHs, like sisoon. He's said things that were an oasis of wisdom and sanity in many gender-alization threads, and I could have easily said something like "if only there were more men in the world like sisoon" - but that could make him and plainsong uncomfortable (it makes me uncomfortable just posting that as an example!). Not my place to say stuff like that. I could say "I greatly appreciate your perspective on whatever the topic was" or "thank you for that post", but such personal gushing like that should really be between him and his wife, or others in their family. Or whoever falls in their agreed-upon boundaries. Since I don't know those boundaries, I must not overstep. (I use them as an example, but feel that way about so many others here too). More importantly, that falls outside of my own boundaries.

Ahhh, boundaries. Perhaps we need to create another thread about it in General, about boundaries in general and where people apply them in their lives and online. Anyone else read the book "Boundaries" by Cloud & Townsend. I still haven't finished it (over the last 8 years!), but the bits I've read have left a deep impression and changed my life for the better. Might have to reread that one soon...

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/27/2019 17:27 PM

I could say "I greatly appreciate your perspective on whatever the topic was" or "thank you for that post",

See, this is perfectly fine with me. You're right that it's the more personal stuff that I think blurs the lines.

I asked my fch about all the things those guys said. He thought it was all nuts. I also asked my dad and my two older sons. They were with my fch. Of course, if I say that, I'll be told they are lying. None of them have any reason to lie to me, though.

Maybe I'm sheltered, but I have not run into that irl. I was really shocked by what I started reading on here.

silverhopes posted 5/27/2019 19:08 PM

Exactly, Coco! If their wives were members here and were receiving that kind of personal attention from other members, I wonder if they would feel uncomfortable? Wouldn't it trigger them? Where is their empathy for the BHs of the WWs in this situation?

I also asked my dad and my two older sons. They were with my fch. Of course, if I say that, I'll be told they are lying. None of them have any reason to lie to me, though.

I'd believe your fch, dad, and sons. The guys here who say their opinions/experiences are simply reporting on that: THEIR opinions/experiences. They cannot speak for all guys. They shouldn't presume to dismiss the experiences the men in your life and many, many other fine men have.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:10 PM, May 27th (Monday)]

gmc94 posted 5/28/2019 00:07 AM

I wonder if we shouldn’t now create our own little army of worker bees spreading lifegiving pollen throughout such threads to counter the aggressive wasps and their stings.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/28/2019 08:29 AM

Gmc, what would that look like?

Silverhopes, the more I think about it, the more I think those BHes are lying. The most outspoken one wrt outsourcing has also said that he gave up a lot in the sex department to marry his W. There must've been more she provided to him or he wouldn't have done that, seeing how important sex is to him. Maybe that attitude is a reaction to being cheated on. They don't want to get hurt again, so they cut off all their emotions.

SisterMilkshake posted 5/28/2019 12:04 PM

I have so much to say about so many of these wonderful posts on this thread. Just makes me feel sane that I am not the only one who is troubled and uncomfortable with the dynamic. I found the dynamic interesting, also, and gave me some things to ponder. I do not know how that was misconstrued as an attack on anyone, but some felt it was. I do understand that some felt I was implying something untoward. In hindsight, I can see where my inartfully articulated comment could be deemed offensive, but certainly not an attack on anyone.

coco, in regards to the whole gatekeeper bullshit, I found this article, written by a man interesting.

Why I Have A Problem With The Myth Of Women As “Sexual Gatekeepers”
by JOEL SVENSSON 25 AUGUST 2016

There’s a sentiment floating around the internet that women are “the gatekeepers” of sex. While statistically speaking, this notion has some factual basis, it’s been taken to disturbing places. To wit, that women having comparatively low sex-drives is somehow denying men their due rights, a practice which constitutes “torture”.

This philosophy finds its purest manifestation in the “Red Pill” movement. Adherents – or “red pillers” as they call themselves – believe that feminism has so thoroughly pervaded Western society that men are now at the sexual mercy of women.

Supposedly about providing its followers with “a positive male identity,” the suggested reading on the Red Pill subreddit is generously laced with violent and deeply misogynistic rhetoric.

“AT ITS CORE, THE VERY NOTION OF THE ‘SEXUAL GATEKEEPER’ IS FLAWED.”

While there’s no doubt that TRP is a cesspool of frustrated entitlement, its claims about women’s sex drives aren’t entirely inaccurate. Studies have consistently shown that men pursue sex more avidly than women, while female sexuality tends to be more complicated, both physiologically and emotionally.

But even if men and women were equal in matters of desire, women would still have far more to lose from casual sex than men do.

For example, if a man sleeps with a bunch of his female friends, he’s likely to be regarded by his peers as “living the dream” or “winning at life”. On the other hand, if a woman is seen to have multiple sex partners, she’s often regarded as “loose” or “a slut”. As long as this double-standard exists, it will encourage women to be much more prudent than men about who they choose to sleep with.

Not only does the numbers game work against them, but women also have to worry about screening their potential partners for various forms of douchebaggery. This ranges from social concerns – gossips and braggarts who would recount the experience in detail to their friends – to graver matters of physical safety. Technology has made things even more complicated.

Since the rise of the smartphone, women and girls have also become targets of photographical harassment. Just last week it was revealed that a ring of boys and men were targeting high school girls, acquiring explicit pictures of them and sharing them online. Then there’s the wider issue of “revenge porn” – nude pictures or videos taken in confidence, then uploaded for the world to see. Increasingly, the threat of compromising pictures making their way around social circles or the Internet is being added to the already long list of things women have to worry about.

“NEITHER WOMEN NOR MEN SHOULD BE JUDGED FOR FAILING TO CONFORM TO THE EXPECTED SEXUAL BEHAVIOUR OF THEIR GENDER.”

That’s a minefield of potential repercussions that men scarcely even have to contemplate. Is it really a mystery why a woman – even one with a high sex-drive – might think twice before simply jumping into bed with someone?

Going back to the question of libido, it’s important to remember that statistics speak only in generalisations; they cannot tell you about an individual. Neither women nor men should be judged for failing to conform to the expected sexual behaviour of their gender. Calling a promiscuous woman a “slut” or a sexually conservative man a “pussy” is simply reinforcing the stereotypes that make these ‘oh-so-mean’ women even less likely to sleep with you.

At its core, the very notion of the “sexual gatekeeper” is flawed. Sex is something that two people agree to do together, not an inherently male activity that women permit to “happen” to them. The whole psychology of the gatekeeper theory is predicated on the subject-object dynamic, where the man is the active subject and the woman a passive receptacle. This dehumanising and archaic view of sex is not supported by any statistic, and harkens back to a time when women were sold into marriage and the notion of the female orgasm had as much legitimacy as Bigfoot.

For this reason, men crying about not getting enough sex from the women who guard it smacks of a deep misunderstanding about what sex actually is. If you find yourself frustrated at the dragon-women who won’t let you near their hoard of golden sex-coins, chances are you’re an emotionally stunted maladjust.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/28/2019 12:24 PM

That's a great article, SMS! So, I guess this whole sexual gatekeepers thing arose, or at least became popularized, by TRP? I had never heard of trp until I read about it on here. It's some scary shit!

There was an incident at my teenager's school about boys sharing explicit photos of someone. I don't know how the photos were initially obtained, but I doubt the girl(s) in them wanted them shared. School officials tried to search all the boys' phones. My son refused (smart kid). No warrant, no search. He was not involved.

Want2BHappyAgain posted 5/28/2019 12:57 PM

Thanks for posting this SisterMilkshake . I had NO IDEA what others were talking about on here . I never read those threads...I thought it was something about the movie !!! I always wondered why it wasn’t posted in another Forum !!!

DevastatedDee posted 5/28/2019 16:07 PM

That is a great article, Sister Milkshake. Really spot-on.

Hawke posted 5/28/2019 18:06 PM

Oh, wow! I posted about my feeling of alienation from some of the mansplaining on a some threads, and then I didn't come back here for a few weeks. Lo and behold, I was not the only one feeling that way! I did try a couple of posts on those threads, but they were largely ignored, as expected. I don't regret posting, though. Perhaps someone read my posts and they helped them.

A huge problem on those types of threads is the generalization. It's as though people forget that each and every person writing here is an individual with a specific background, history and relationship. If people would just speak to their own personal experience, I think we would see a much more useful, nuanced and textured discussion. Instead, they become divisive and alienating. Life is messy. So are relationships. Humans are a lot less rational than people give them credit for (look at me generalize!). They don't fit into little boxes of formal logic or sweeping general statements.

Many would accuse me of having been a sexual gatekeeper in my relationship with ex. The truth is I lost interest in sex. I still don't fully understand why - my loss of interest coincided with our first child being born, which happened to coincide with the affair starting. So, lack of sleep, intense new responsibilities, less couple time, less me time and one person choosing to spend their energy on a third party. The sex therapist I did end up seeing said that it's rarely one person losing interest all by him- or herself. It's usually a combination of factors. And my lack of libido hurt me very much, too. It wasn't like I wanted to be that way.

I can also get some of the guys who blame this new-fangled feminism is the problem. After my ex was well-entrenched in his affair, he *gasp* came out as polyamorous. And OW is genderfluid. And I'm too much of a neanderthal to understand their enlightened relationship which glows in the aura of new age-y boundary-less-ness. (I hope no one is offended by this. I know that some people practice ethical polyamory (although I'm still kind of skeptical about it, I can keep an open mind), and I don't have a problem with people who are any gender. I just didn't appreciate them warping these concepts to defend cheating, and for a while I probably did blame polyamory for the cheating. It didn't help that OW's "enlightened" friends were all in on the cheating.)

The talk of outsourcing also bugged me. Like we are a bunch of Stepford wives or wife appliances. I've basically outsourced the practical roles my ex played, and the person I've hired probably does a better job. It doesn't mean I don't want companionship; shared values, dreams and hopes; and a common parenting vision; just to name a few. Grrrr!

Hawke posted 5/28/2019 18:08 PM

HeHadADoubleLife: To address your libido concern, it took me a while after separating from my ex, but my libido came back full force, which was very weird to me because it had been on a leave of absence for 4-5 years! I found myself realizing how many hot men I worked with or saw on the street or wherever. I ended up dating someone I met in a Divorce and Separation Meetup group and we've been seeing each other for a year and a half or so. My libido is still through the roof - I think it might be partly because we only really see each other a few times per fortnight, as we both have kids and prioritize them.

SisterMilkshake posted 5/28/2019 19:43 PM

@Hawke

My libido is still through the roof - I think it might be partly because we only really see each other a few times per fortnight, as we both have kids and prioritize them.
This. FWH and OW had very "passionate" sex/hook ups. However, they only (ha ha!) hooked up, on average, once every 4-6 weeks. But, meanwhile, chatting each other up (the LTA started somewhere late 90's, they were kind of luddites, lol, as they didn't text, sext or e-mail) for weeks. Of course it is going to be wildly passionate.

If FWH chatted me up and teased me for weeks and we only had any physical sexual contact every 4 to 6 weeks, I would be over the top wildly passionate, too. Oh, if someone, cleaned my house, cooked dinner, took the kids to soccer, took care of the baby and booked me a hotel room where I could spend hours taking care of me getting ready to fuck in, and then to actually fuck in, yeah, maybe my libido would be over the top, too, maybe I would have been into "fucking his brains out".

It is so so common for new moms to lose interest in sex. I actually had an undiagnosed case of PPD (even though I kept going to doctors and telling them there was something wrong). It took them four years to figure out (when I started hallucinating) that there was something seriously wrong. But, even in non severe cases, most new mom's hormones are thrown very out of whack. And, the psychological impact of becoming a new mother impacts us emotionally and mentally. So many husbands (and I can understand their feelings) feel so rejected and, in turn, unloved because of the lack of sex or the desire for sex. This really should be shouted from the rooftops by all kinds of doctors. Especially OB/GYN and mental health doctors. They need to make sure all their patients get help with hormones along with mentally and sexually adjusting to our new roles. Included in after care. Its like a dirty little secret that most new mothers struggle with their libido.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/28/2019 20:24 PM

Aftercare in the USA is atrocious. There really is none. I have toyed with the idea of becoming a PP doulas once I don't have so much of my own child responsibility. I would even do it for free.

Not being interested in sex is not the same as being a gatekeeper, I think. It think a gatekeeper is someone who purposely withholds sex out of spite or to manipulate. I just read a thread where 2 women said there H's were gatekeepers (not that term, but the description is the same).

My fch and I don't have sex often. We average 2 to 3 times a month. I'm not sure why. I have asked him about it many times. He says he wants more, but he doesn't follow through. I have almost always been the one to initiate. At least, he has never turned me down, so I don't feel rejected. I'm just tired of always initiating. I was shocked that he actually initiated yesterday. Don't know what came over him, but I'll take it. I think, technically, we have a dead bedroom, and that is not because of me.

SMS, I was thinking about the statement you made that got everyone riled up. I think it was because you said, "new crop of WWs." I don't really know, though. They got pretty upset with me for saying I found it curious. Whatever.

SisterMilkshake posted 5/28/2019 20:34 PM

@coco that may be true, coco. I admit, I was inartful in my comment. But, some of these guys were not fond of WW's that used to be here and have left. It was directed at BH's, but the WW's took the hit.

Yes, coco, I agree with the difference in what "gatekeeping" is and isn't. My sister had the same dynamic in her marriage. I wouldn't call my BIL's low libido gatekeeping. He just didn't have the same sex drive as my sister who is apparently HL. It was very frustrating for my sister, though. I can understand spouse's frustration with mismatched libido's.

Hawke posted 5/29/2019 00:15 AM

SMS: I realize that the relationship my boyfriend and I have is different from that of spouses who share a whole host of responsibilities and various ties that bind them together. While it isn't an affair, the distance and sporadic nature does keep it spicier than is practicable in a live-in spousal relationship.

Thanks, SMS and coco for understanding the libido issue. I sometimes feel marginalized because there are enough posts on SI threads suggesting that lack of or insufficient sex will cause a man to cheat (or at least make him want to cheat). I tried to explain on one thread that it isn't a matter of maliciously or intentionally withholding sex but one of losing interest in it, but my post was drowned out on that particular thread.

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/29/2019 07:18 AM

SMS, I took a break from this for at least a year. I am very surprised at what I came back to. It definitely was not like this before. I don't remember any BPs gushing over WPs, or men with their trp crap.

Hawke, the guys that talk about women as sexual gatekeepers don't want to hear anything else. It seems to me that, even if someone is being a gatekeeper, the partner would want to find out why they keep getting turned down. Those guys don't really care how the woman feels. They just want sex on demand.

Reading a thread yesterday about missing the old "us", one Male member posted something very poignant. He said he misses the closeness, companionship, etc. The sex would just be a bonus. I don't think most men believe in trp. There are just a few very outspoken men on here who have been so hurt that they don't know what to do with their emotions.

HeHadADoubleLife posted 5/29/2019 08:42 AM

I have so many thoughts on the above, but not enough time to respond how I would like to.

Just getting thoughts about something else out there because it's been bugging me. TMI warning if you don't want to hear about pap smears etc.

6 months post DDay and I went in for my second round of STD check ups yesterday.

I went in for a well women's check up, and had also asked to do a pap smear and full STD panel at the same time. This is the same doctor I saw immediately post DDay for my first round of STD checks, and she knew it was due to my XH's infidelity. I told her that I wanted to have EVERYTHING checked.

Then when she was asking for the date of my last pap smear and I told her last January (I had gotten one done with a diff OBGYN when we were doing fertility testing, so it wasn't in my chart), she started telling me that I didn't need to go in for another year, maybe even 2. I asked well aren't there things that you can only test for with a pap? She responded, "Well what is it you are concerned about?"

I was dumbfounded that I even needed to say it out loud, but I did anyway - "Well, considering that my XH was sleeping with other women behind my back, I'm concerned about anything and everything. But HPV is the one that immediately comes to mind."

She ended up doing the pap like I asked, but I was shocked that I even needed to push it. I can't believe that the protocols have been pushed so that a pap isn't required every year anymore, but especially for someone who is dealing with infidelity, I would think that would be the first thing you would want to do.

Then after having to push for it, I ended up crying during it because I was so uncomfortable. Emotionally uncomfortable, but also physically, more so than usual. It didn't help matters that she was having a difficult time finding a good view of my cervix because I was so tense, so it took longer than normal.

I've never had trouble with procedures like this in the past. I was always very chill about it - I felt like it was routine maintenance, just needed the mechanic to pop the hood and make sure everything was running smoothly so to speak.

But this felt so much different. I just want to feel normal again, but this really reinforced how violated I feel. I'm honestly not sure if I'm ever going to feel comfortable with anyone touching me again. And then those pesky sex dreams keep coming up, and my mind goes around in circles. It's crazy how infidelity fucks with your brain.

I used to have ONS, I wouldn't say frequently, but I had my fair share. I was always safe about it, and I saw no issue with it. We each had our fun, and neither were expecting more from it, so it was good! Now, the idea of a ONS is tempting because I want to scratch that itch, but I'm also so messed up by the betrayal that I don't think I could handle it. I feel like it's going to take a lot of trust and understanding for me to get back on the horse, which means I'll have to get to a point where I'm dating again. But how do you explain to someone hey, I'm attracted to you and I like you and all, but if you hug me or kiss me I might start crying?

This might be a better question for the New Beginnings thread, but I feel a little safer here knowing that it's all women. How far out from DDay did you start feeling safe being intimate again?

cocoplus5nuts posted 5/30/2019 07:02 AM

But how do you explain to someone hey, I'm attracted to you and I like you and all, but if you hug me or kiss me I might start crying?

You wait until you know someone well enough to feel safe with them. I've never intentionally had a ONS, so I don't know what to do in that situation.

DevastatedDee posted 5/30/2019 08:38 AM

I don't know if this is just how I am or if this is a sign of damage (probably the latter), but a ONS is a million times easier for me than any other kind of sex. I can put on my confident sexual persona and have a blast getting a guy into bed. I find the idea of a series of ONS to be much less intimidating than getting to know a person and feeling vulnerable with him. Falling in love is a rare thing for me and I think if I'm being honest, the only time I really and truly was in love and emotionally vunerable was with my WH which makes it more fucked up. I discovered making love with him. I almost feel like I'm at a crossroads, though it's too early to say that. I see a future where I know what it feels like to actually love and become open to it with a healthier person and I see another future where I just shut that nonsense down and resume my occasional FWB or ONS life and meet my own emotional needs. The first is terrifying, the second is comforting. Maybe I'll have a better perspective after another year or two.

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