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I saw this mentioned in another thread, how men need to understand that they can still be Plan A even if the WW liked sex with her AP more than she does with her BH, and we shouldn't focus much on the sexual aspect. We should be glad that we're thought of in high regard for our security and conversation and stability and being a good H and father.

My thoughts on Plan A/B/etc, is that whoever they fully prefer is plan A. And plan B only happens when the plan A AP bows out and then the WW decides to give the marriage a shot. I'll admit that i believe in most cases that the AP is plan A and that they prefer sex with AP over the BH. Which means that IMO, the preferred sex partner (AP) is plan A. Judst my opinion of most cases.

I'll also add that as hardline as I come off, i honestly don't know what I'd do if my W cheated on me. But I do know that if she told me that she preferred sex with her AP, but i was the better overall partner so she wanted me, well, I'd be the F outta there so fast. I'll be damned if i'm going to wonder if she's thinking about him during sex, or if she's actually wishing I was him during sex. Nope...goodbye.

Another thing that was brought up was how we BHes need to know that we're the best our WW ever has had sex with. And if true, then great, but that's not really correct. We really just want to be better sexually than the AP.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 8:24 AM, March 17th (Sunday)]

GoldenR, I knew when I said that I’d be misinterpreted, so I’ll take this opportunity to clarify: I was not solely referring to the AP when I said better/more preferred sexual partner, nor was I even necessarily referring to an AP at all—my remarks were including relationships in which there was no cheating at all, but in which one or both had previous sexual partners. It seemed to me that there is so much insecurity around sex and such a burning desire to be their current partner’s “best”, and I was merely saying that I don’t see any way that that’s possible 100% of the time, so why make oneself crazy over it? It was not about AP vs BS—it was about current partner vs anybody else. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:29 AM, March 17th (Sunday)]

Golden,

Buddy, there are two things you will never change about the POV of many, many people on this board.

First, is that they scorn your POV on "Sexual Plan A." If you feel the way you feel, you are immature, you just don't "understand," and frankly, you should be grateful to have your WW put up with your insecurities.

Second, raising OM's child (OC.) See the first point, except replace the last subpoint with "you are lucky to be raising OM's child."

They so desperately need you to see their personal narrative for their own reasons, they don't want to empathize with your pain or viewpoint.

Trying to get them to see the overwhelming hurt and trauma to the BH in either point is like trying to get a brick wall to understand how to solve partial differential equations. It just ain't gonna happen.

Getting upset that they can't empathize does nothing good for you. It just is what it is.

Darkness -

That was you?

I realized what you meant. For me, I've never cared that much about being the best. Ive always figured as long as it's obvious she enjoys it with me, I'm happy with that.

I didn't bring up the 80/20 thing that the OP brought up, but that didn't sit well with me at all.

Your comments I agree with, UNTIL the time comes that she cheats. That's a whole different ballgame.

Golden,

Shocker, right?

I really didn’t mean any offense. I often post off the cuff when I get frustrated. To RSU7’s point, I shouldn’t shame or criticize others for their insecurities. I just got riled wrt 80/20 comment. Nobody should think their be-all and end-all worth is directly tied to their sex life. I’m sorry I caused a stir.

No stir at all.

I think it's a good topic regardless.

Trying to get them to see the overwhelming hurt and trauma to the BH in either point is like trying to get a brick wall to understand how to solve partial differential equations. It just ain't gonna happen.

As a contributor to most of these threads that pop up, as much as I hate to say it, I have to agree, it's a hugely uphill battle to get people to see this issue differently. Speaking personally, I see what the other point of view is, and I understand the points they make, it's just that those points don't resonate at all and also feel like a great way to keep the "sexual plan A" (the AP) in that special place rather than the BS.

You know, a big part of me thinks, "Is this really so hard"? Like, if I'd been the cheater and gave my AP all kinds of crazy sex, would I really be on here defending my right to not do any of that with my W (assuming she wanted/asked for it)? I suppose perhaps I might be, but.. And this is going to be really hard to say, I'm pretty sure if I were here arguing that point (I went down on the AP and made her orgasm each time, my wife wanted that before the A, and still wants it today, and I won't do it for her) it would point to a different issue. And that issue is the crux of the problem; if that were the situation (my hypothetical) the only real reason I can imagine I'd do that is because I found the AP more attractive/cleaner/tasted better/etc than I do my W. And that's the simple and totally unacceptable truth as to why I'd act like that coming out of an A. The more attracted I am to you, the more you'll get from me. And that's a universal truth in my life that I've seen play out on both sides (for men and women). Men will let a woman they find unattractive give them a BJ, but will only go down on a woman they are really attracted to (at least some men, myself included). And a WW saying "you can have sex with me, but nothing other than missionary" (when she worked through every porn position possible with the AP) is exactly the same thing.

Nobody should think their be-all and end-all worth is directly tied to their sex life.

Be all, end all? No, that should not be your sex life. But is it a big component for some people? Yes, it is. Just making numbers up, but some large percentage of my daily happiness relates to my sexuality. Had a crappy day at work but had sex 4 times? Well.. That's still going to be a "good day" because of the weighting that sex gets for me. Almost any day can be "made good" with sex, and even a great day can be ruined without it (NOT all great days, I'm not saying that at all, but I had lots of "great days" where my wife turned me down for sex as we laid in bed together that totally erased all the good memories of the day and made me feel like a used tool, make her happy with a romantic day together and she didn't spend any effort at all to make me happy with her; day ruined, no matter how good it was).

Your comments I agree with, UNTIL the time comes that she cheats. That's a whole different ballgame.

I just found this nugget and needed to edit to include it. That's an incredibly important point; I wasn't happy with our "pre-A sex life" but I accepted it. I knew what I'd signed up for when I got married and I carried that burden as part of the "job" of being married. No, it wasn't great, and yes, there were a lot of "nos" that seemed unreasonable to me, but I made that deal. I could try to change hearts and minds, but that was entirely optional and would be icing on the marriage cake, not a "must have". That all goes out the window though after an A, especially a porn star sex A (which is more common than not).

And now, knowing what I know now, as much as it probably will annoy/upset some posters, if I were to D and date someone new, I'd never accept it in any relationship. It's going to be great or I'm out. Because, if anything, the A showed me something I used to know but convinced myself wasn't true in the most painful and damaging way possible. "No, I don't do that" doesn't mean "I don't do that", it means "I don't do that with you". And that statement is just unacceptable, either in R or in a new relationship.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:11 AM, March 17th (Sunday)]

My thought while reading this is during the A- the AP is often just plain plan A. Many women cheat as an exit, whether they consciously know that or not (I think not) It seems that is more the case than men.

I am generalizing here, but women tend to put plan A on the man who is romantically lighting them up not the one who curls their toes the best. Sex is often many levels down to women than it seems to be for men. Even women who love sex (I do) it’s still not as priority or in the front as it is for men. For the most part men tend to be remarkably similar sexually and I read that from a bw the other day.

In an affair it is often that what the woman enjoys is how the affair makes her feel. The AP is just the vehicle for that. We don’t realize that and we mistake it for love (men do this too obviously but by reading this site it seems not as often)

So I guess what I am trying to say is I have little problem with what you are expressing because they are generally plan A. It’s that I don’t think most women think this way in putting an emphasis or a comparison on the sex. . We tend to be swept up more in feelings than sex. But sex is part of a romantic relationship and can’t be excluded either.

I would say at the time of the affair, I treated the AP as plan A. I put my time and effort there. So I could see how a man could interpret it in the way that you do- through a mans lens of what sex represents to them in a relationship. But it had nothing to do with who was better in bed. It doesn’t change the fact I put someone above my husband at all and I think that might be more the heart of what you are trying to express but you boil it down to the specific area of sex.

When h and I started having sex we clicked immediately. We always did. I have had the best experiences of my life with him and I say that with no lip service. Any other partner I have ever had, it was never like that. I had good sex with some but it took longer to learn each other’s bodies, and sometimes it felt like sex was a lot of taking turns and compromising. With h it never has felt that way. It always felt like we wanted the same things and we often are ravenous of each other (chemistry I guess? Combined with sexual compatibility?). We are still this way. But that doesn’t make a relationship work on its own.

We forgot to be sweethearts too. The little things that keep the romance alive. It happens in all relationships in peaks and valleys. But I didnt speak up this time. I didn’t try. I went out and got swept up in a romantic fantasy that was so full of crap that I look back and wonder how I was so mistaken. But it was a fantasy as we discussed on your other thread the feelings might have been real but they weren’t based on anything real.

I don’t think I am unique, I think I represent a large amount of women who have an affair - we do it to feel special to someone. It’s sick and misguided. I mean my husband has been there with me for almost half my life. He has supported me, he has watched me grow babies and give birth to them, he has sacrificed for me, taken care of me when I was sick, has been supportive of me, loved me, but THAT didn’t make me feel special? It’s truly not the spouse or the marriage that causes the cheating - it’s the mentality of the cheater. And it’s not the Ap has something special, again it’s the mentality of the cheater who is out in Lala fantasyland. The AP can be anyone who will play along-apparently they can be the wrong age, could be underemployed, or ugly, or a drug addict, or any host of things we read on this site every day- so why would bring good in bed be a prerequisite???

So I agree the Ap is easy to see as plan A regardless of sexual prowess- how many affairs do you read about that the ap was wham bam, or they took the best parts without reciprocal appreciation? I don’t know if it helps you or not but this is what I thought when I read your post.

Oh and I want to simplify: the fantasy is plan a. Not the actual AP as a person. I said that too round about. I don’t think the AP really met any criteria I can think of in hindsight.

I also think the reason it becomes that way the most is because I liked who I presented to be in the situation more than anything. I liked that he had no preconceived notions about me - it allowed my imagination to be more fully in control.

I don’t think there is a human who should compete with a vision someone has in their head...a projection they made in themselves and another person. Its really unfair and unhealthy. Self torture.

Trying to get them to see the overwhelming hurt and trauma to the BH in either point is like trying to get a brick wall to understand how to solve partial differential equations. It just ain't gonna happen.

We all understand.

But hurt and trauma must be worked through, not accepted. Healing is a journey, not a yes or no.

After a violent crime, a rape, a kidnapping, an abusive relationship, a brutal military action during war, child abuse, a devastating car accident . . . or infidelity, we must figure out how to put ourselves back together again.

We don't wallow in our misery and expect the world to heal us. We don't bemoan our situation as Eeyore would do. "We'll never make it." Or if we do these things, we accept that we are stuck and need help. We reach out for IC, books, websites, medical care, spiritual support, and anything else we can think of. Because we don't want to drown permanently in our cynical outlook. Because we want more for ourselves.

These threads don't make me angry, they make me feel sad. For the work that isn't being done to get unstuck.

Best wishes to all BH that they may feel 100% confident in their value once again. But remember, healing is an inside job.

To quote George Costanza from Seinfeld: I'd rather she hated me and thought I was good looking!

If my W said to me that while sex was better with her AP than with me, but she loves our life together otherwise, I'd be out. Fuck that. To just admit defeat and say "he's better at sex than you, I'll never be that hot for you." That feels so final. I couldn't stay in that.

I read a thread once about a guy who always wanted his wife to open up more sexually. Try new things, anal, oral to finish, etc. She wouldn't do it. Until she had the A. Lots of anal, finishing on her face, etc. Then the A ends, and she's back to the same old vanilla routine with her husband, ashamed of the way she acted in the A. She won't do any of these things with her husband because it reminds her of "what a slut she was." This BH is miserable now. That would definitely be the final straw for me. Immediate Divorce. Every single time we had vanilla missionary sex would just be another knife in my back. Her body, her choice... I get that. But to be further humiliated like that is my choice... and I would choose to remove myself.

I am fascinated by how much value men put on sex. I had no idea how much male self worth was tied up in it.

So, if someone tells you that they love you and want to be with because of reasons other than sex, which most women focus on, you are not interested? Sex is really the only important thing to you in a M?

I am fascinated by how much value men put on sex. I had no idea how much male self worth was tied up in it.

So, if someone tells you that they love you and want to be with because of reasons other than sex, which most women focus on, you are not interested? Sex is really the only important thing to you in a M?

Don't be shocked. Look around you with open eyes and see the world as it is. NSA sex with an attractive woman has pretty universally agreed value; and women providing that service often make more than highly trained lawyers and doctors. Economics shows you the world as it really is, not as we would like it to be, and the "value" of female NSA sex is 100's to 1000's per hour, where the value of male NSA sex is 0. There are no male prostitutes who only service women, in fact, I'd hazard a guess that 99.99% of all sexual service buyers are men (with the .01% out there for women who, for one reason or another, want a paid experience).

It's not that my self-worth is entirely decided by sex. Sex can be a lot of things to me, what we're talking about here is sex as a proxy for how someone feels about me. And yes, that's very valuable to me because, in many ways, it's a much better predictor of actual feelings than words or other indicators. A woman can say she loves you all day long, if she's not sleeping with you (and there's no reason why not, health issues, etc) there's something wrong. And a woman can say "God I hate you RIO" and then, 10 minutes later, decides to sleep with me.. Guess which one is a better indicator of how she really feels? In my eyes, it's always the latter.

If someone said "I love you RIO" and followed that with "but I will never have sex with you", I'd think they are lying. And in my experience, they probably ARE lying. The "I love you as a friend" thing evaporates like it was never there as soon as circumstances change, there was never "love" there, it was utility and convenience, something to do while waiting for love to come along.

Sex is NOT the only thing important in a M. If it was, there wouldn't be many people here because, well, as long as I was still getting sex, who cares about an A, right? Trust, loyalty, shared goals, love.. All that stuff matters a lot in a marriage, no doubt about it. But sex is the only thing that's exclusive to the marriage, I trust other people, other people are loyal to me, I share goals with others, and yes, I love other people too (family, for example). But I have sex with none of them. Sex is the only thing "held apart" in a M, and, because of that, yeah, it's real important to many, especially if sex is valuable to you personally (as it is to me).

No, not the only thing that's important, but, without it, it will quickly become the only thing that matters. If that makes any sense?

I might be the exception to this rule. In no way was I plan b. Her AP was was younger, had little kids, barely could put sentences together. My EX might have been stupid by having the affair, but was not stupid enough to replace our marriage and family with his. Nor was she stupid enough to think our kids or friends would ever accept him in her life in any way

As for sexual plan B. Maybe for the first time or two she preferred it, and this took me a long time to accept, but the way he humiliated her by having her give in a BJ where his buddies could hear her as well as the other sex right out of what you see on porn channels where the female is treated like a slut, in the long term is something she wouldn’t have gone for.

The thing is even though all these things were offered, I wanted no part of it. Part of that was I really had no interest, the other part was that was who he was, and not who I was, so in that respect for that kind of sex he would have beaten me by far. It also reeked of a sloppy second kind of situation.

As for her previous partners, never even thought of them. She had plenty of experience prior to me, as I did with her. We both learned skills that benefited both of us. We never had to stumble learning how to have sex. Not that we didn’t learn each other so it got better, but both our base of knowledge was just what it was. Far different situation when she learns or does new things with her AP.

That said, in the end it didn’t matter if I was plan A,B, or C. It didn’t change the fact that she let him do what he did. It destroyed our marriage as well as altered our sex life forever. She ended up with the same sex with me in terms of it just being a release without the feelings we both had before. She turned into plan nothing.

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 3:48 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

<100% total threadjack coming>

Ok, I guess I have reached my limit on "Healing has to come from inside" or "BS has to heal the BS" mantra of SI. Whether it is my professional perspective or just being in a pissy mood today - CAN WE STOP SAYING THAT?

The effects of infidelity trauma are far more like a cancer than a scraped knee. You don't just get some bacatracin and a bandaid and Viola - it is all better. No, once it is in you, it is going to spread, it will likely metastasize and the damage will be severe.

You wouldn't tell one my patients - "Hey Dude, go line up the cyclotron, shoot some protons into you and heal yourself. Peace out." NFW. Neither would you block access to care from someone else. (Aka wayward spouse keeps on cheating...)

But that is message we are delivering.

The reality of infidelity is it takes support. (Usually a shitload of support.) It takes either a remorseful and empathetic wayward or excising the cheating wayward from your life. (If either of those were easy, we sure would not have so many members.) It often takes therapy, usually lots of therapy. THEN, the BS has a fighting chance to "heal themselves."

Just as I cannot cure cancer in any of my patients (they have to fight), the reality is they usually don't stand much of chance unless we can get it out of them first.

End of rant. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of how men need to just get over it.

[This message edited by reallyscrewedup7 at 3:55 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

I don't see that self worth is truly tied to sex for men.

Rather, the relationship value is tied to sex. From my point of view I have several buddies that are better conversationalists than my wife, best friends that we do drop everything to be there for. Take most of the things that you mentioned women say they value from a relationship and I can get those anywhere.

But sex? That's a different story. So, when my wife cheated, it was insanely difficult to not feel sexual insecure. Harder even not to project what I valued in our relationship onto it or even more to not devalue having a relationship with her at all. A lot of my pride, which was misplaced I now realize, was tied up in satisfying her.

People thoughts and feelings are things I'll never truly know. I can guess and they can tell me and it might be right or it might be the truth, but I can never see inside her head. So if she has thoughts or feelings for another dude, it's a lost cause to try to chase down. When she ACTS on those feelings, we'll that's something different for me. Which is why the physical component of the affair hurt so bad and the emotional one didn't. Course I'm speaking for myself here.

So, if someone tells you that they love you and want to be with because of reasons other than sex, which most women focus on, you are not interested? Sex is really the only important thing to you in a M?

Honestly, at this point in my life, if I was single and dating a woman that was the complete total package of brains, charisma attractiveness and personality, and she told meshe wanted to be with me forever bc of how nice I was, even though she wasn't really enjoying the sex with me....

Bye, bye. Bc to me, that's just a recipe for her to cheat on me.

So, if someone tells you that they love you and want to be with because of reasons other than sex, which most women focus on, you are not interested? Sex is really the only important thing to you in a M?

I have friends and family with whom I can have great conversation, laugh with, look to for emotional support go out and do fun things with, etc. Romance and sex are the things that set intimate relationships and marriages apart from other kinds. If I'm in a committed relationship with a woman, I'm choosing to forego all other opportunities for sex. Why would I ever make that choice with a woman who isn't attracted to me and doesn't really care much for having sex (and lots of it) with me?

In short, I want nothing to do with a relationship with a woman who doesn't have the hots for me.

[This message edited by firenze at 4:47 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

even though she wasn't really enjoying the sex with me....

Bye, bye. Bc to me, that's just a recipe for her to cheat on me.

Do you believe women cheat on men for better sex/bc they’re not sexually attracted to their man? (Not saying it’s never true fyi. Just asking.)

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 5:21 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

I didn't say she doesn't have the hots for you. I said she wants to be with you for reasons other than sex.

I can have the hots for lots of people. I might even have sex with some of them. That doesn't mean I love them or want to be married to them. It's the other things they have to offer that matters more to me.

Sex with my fCH is phenomenal. It is truly the best I ever had (and I had lots). However, that is not why I married him. And, if I found out tomorrow that he could never have sex with me again, I would still be with him. There are other ways to have sex than with another person.

I don't think there are other people that I could be as intimate or romantic with if I didn't get that from my fCH. If I did, it would be cheating. Romance is not sex.

I understand that men can and will have sex just for the physical pleasure, without needing any emotional feelings attached to that act. Some women like that, as well. That's exactly why the other stuff is so important. I can have a physical interaction with anyone. I can't share my deepest, darkest innermost anythings with anyone.