SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I was on a thread earlier and it was interesting reading the different perspectives on the topic so it made me think, how is cheating defined?

We refer to A’s as EA or PA, but are the steps taken before it turns into an A part of it as well?

We know that we “see” things which causes thoughts, thoughts are explored which causes you to “feel” things which translates to emotions, eventually resulting in physical contact.

With that said, are things like flirting with men or women, strip clubs, or watching porn part of cheating? I get the impression some feel it’s not, some do.

I know when my H went to strip clubs I felt it was a reflection of me, why am I not enough and why do you want to get turned on by other women, but I also know some men and women who don’t think that way. They think it’s a form of entertainment. I think I would feel the same about porn...am I not enough to excite you?

I’m curious what other think.

[This message edited by Hutch at 9:27 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

Every relationship or marriage is different. What I may accept or find ok others may not.

Cheating - whether physical or emotional, the keeping the AP a secret or hidden, lying who you are with, not being honest about conversations or meet ups, texting hundreds of times per day but keeping it hidden, secret apps, etc. it is all cheating.

There is also financial cheating - lying about what you buy or spend money on, running up credit card debt, taking money from your spouse without knowledge, etc.

In my book - cheating is suspicious behavior or acts or words you don’t tell your spouse about that you know is wrong.

Example: my H’s first 4 year EA - I told him to watch his back, she likes you more than a friend. We laughed. It was funny. I wasn’t jealous or concerned. Until I found out about a voicemail message she left him that he never told me about.

That is when I realized it was a “friendship” that was now inappropriate and crossed the line.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:41 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

I'm with 1stWife on this one.

I think what specific actions constitute 'cheating' is different for everyone.

However, I think that it crosses the line from shady or in poor taste to cheating when the secrecy happens. If a spouse is lying about what they are doing, and when, and with whom then the line has been crossed.

So, as personal example: I would not be ok with or like my spouse going to a strip club. I don't consider that cheating though; IMHO it is in poor taste and I think is disrespectful to me.

I would also not be ok with my spouse discussing feelings/marital issues with another woman. If I were to stumble upon that without prior knowledge, then it does equal cheating in my book because there was deception around it.

Would you want your spouse doing it with someone else? NO??? Ding Ding Ding Ding - there's a clue there.

Before there's an A, there's usually a 'slippery slope.'

I think we all have the right to define the boundary between 'slope' and 'A.'

Ultimately, I think a spouse is allowed to define what makes them feel safe in a committed relationship -- and their husband or wife can respect and enforce those boundaries or not.

In other words, there are a lot of ways people will define the term 'cheating'.

For me, an emotional affair is a relationship that withholds secrets from the marriage. Basically, a person outside the M who knows things about your spouse that you don't or has inside track to your marriage that you didn't know about. I don't mean a pal you vent problems in general with -- but the more secrets, the more more intimate elements shared, the more dangerous it gets.

As for strip clubs? I know some couples who go together, so not always a bad thing for some relationships. That said, if a married guy has a regular spot and a regular time he visits a club, gets to know the women working there, flirts with his favorites, that's a problem to me.

I haven't been to a strip club in 15-years, if my wife asked me to never go to one ever again, I'd have no problem staying home.

Porn addiction is definitely a real thing and it gets discussed a bunch around here. I understand why people would define that as cheating -- especially if you combine porn use with a PA or a serial cheater.

We refer to A’s as EA or PA, but are the steps taken before it turns into an A part of it as well?

In some cases for sure, we tend to call those 'red flags' when we see people talk about them here. But I think some consenting adults can view porn on occasion without harming their relationship, same with a visit now and again to a strip club.

My wife's issues were from childhood that had zero validation from parents, so she generally loved attention from people telling her she was cool or pretty, etc. Those are red flags too, and we either attack those poor coping skills along the way or stay vulnerable to crossing lines we shouldn't cross with other people.

At the end of the day love, honor and cherish can be broken a number of ways. In the overly obvious department -- all humans have less than pure thoughts, it's how we act on them or don't act on them that separate us from other mammals.

Truth is self evident, I think we all know when we've crossed a line.

Hutch,

I think you need to evaluate why you are asking this. It seems like to me you are trying to figure out if your H cheated on you, or if his behaviors were equal to yours? If that's the underlying intent, I would let that be.

There are behaviors that I allowed in my Pre-A marriage that bothered me. Some of them I still allow because they are not bothersome enough to make a stand on them now after all these years of marriage, as it would effect the overall culture of our marriage and would send a mixed message.

Not addressing some of them at an earlier time was still a statement of my responsibility to deal with them as they occurred. My conflict avoidance and lack of self worth were the core issues as to why I did not meet that responsibility.

Also, it doesn't exonerate. My decision to cheat was wrong, no matter what led up to it. No matter what the marriage was like. Ownership of your part of being in this marriage long term, not getting help before now, not cheating, those are things you have to evaluate why you did or didn't do them.

My feeling is that neither you or I were good with putting boundaries up that should have been put up. For me it came from a matter of self worth. You have to look at your responsibilities to yourself and how failing to meet them have resulted in a relationship that probably lasted too long.

I am not trying to come down on you but the blame game never helps anything - finding where you have blame does because it will make you move through life differently.

I also understand some of this is trying to sort through whether you want to stay and work on your marriage. But the keys to that answer are inside the self introspection that I am talking about. When you know your part of your marriage and your happiness you will know the answers to whether or not you want to stay and try again. My guess is this marriage has been gone for you for a long time and you really just haven't gotten the will to make that stand. That also can be found in that introspection of what you owe yourself. Please read this with the caring in which it was intended.

The grey area activities depend on what the agreements are between spouses. If porn bothers one spouse and the other promises not to view it, then later secretly watches porn, clears internet history and lies about it, then yes, that is cheating.

My husband has a serious problem with porn. It is just like an affair. He's covered it up, gaslighted, deleted computer histories, snuck movies and magazines into the house, lied to his 12-step sponsor, lied to the members of his 12-step group and even lied to my face in front of his CSAT. It's cheating. It's an affair with porn.

If you feel like you have to hide and lie about it, it's cheating.

Are you talking about cheating in general or infidelity specifically? I’m just wondering because your choice to use the word “cheating” vs “infidelity” is interesting.

Using the word cheating, it seems to me, casts a pretty wide net. Whereas I personally feel that the term “infidelity” is a little more narrow and specific.

I can “cheat” on a board game. I can “cheat” on my taxes. But I don’t think people would commonly use the term infidelity whilst discussing either of those examples.

I think that, for most instances and most people, the word infidelity refers to being unfaithful to a spouse or sexual partner.

So do you mean infidelity? Because my answer to the question would kind of hinge on that. And since this site is “surviving infidelity” and not “surviving whatever your definition of cheating is” I think it’s relevant to the discussion.

I agree that if you have to hide what you did or said from your partner, it’s cheating, or at the very least, crossing the line toward it. That said, before I was cheated on, I probably would have said physical contact or deep emotional intimacy. After being cheated on, him simply calling me his “ex-wife” to another woman while we were living together and trying to reconcile felt as horrible as when he actually had sex with someone.

HoldingTogrther. That is the point that in different marriages cheating is defined differently.

Some spouses are ok with porn viewing by the other spouse - others view it as cheating. Some think going to strip clubs is ok- others don’t.

In some areas cheating is subjective b/c what one spouse will tolerate another would not. Let me give an example.

My H is a good looking hilariously funny guy. Everyone loves him. I was never jealous because there was no reason to be. Until Affair 2. Things I used to tolerate in the past such as flirty behavior and women hanging on him are no longer acceptable.

I now view flirty behavior and physical contact as the slippery slope. Seven years ago I did not care about it. He knows how I feel now and respects those boundaries and admits his prior behavior (while I was ok with it) was disrespectful.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 12:19 PM, August 14th (Wednesday)]

HoldingTogrther. That is the point that in different marriages cheating is defined differently.

Some spouses are ok with porn viewing by the other spouse - others view it as cheating. Some think going to strip clubs is ok- others don’t.

In some areas cheating is subjective b/c what one spouse will tolerate another would not. Let me give an example.

My H is a good looking hilariously funny guy. Everyone loves him. I was never jealous because there was no reason to be. Until Affair 2. Things I used to tolerate in the past such as flirty behavior and women hanging on him are no longer acceptable.

I now view flirty behavior and physical contact as the slippery slope. Seven years ago I did not care about it. He knows how I feel now and respects those boundaries and admits his prior behavior (while I was ok with it) was disrespectful.

That wasn’t the question that I asked. I asked if “cheating” was being used interchangeably with “infidelity”. Because, in the context of the original post it seemed as though that was the implication. So I wanted clarification.

Your answer simply raises even more questions. Because it sounds to me like what you are talking about is boundaries (which I would agree are reasonable and fair to establish) and the potential violation of those boundaries (which I would agree would be a problem and potential deal breaker in a marriage especially post infidelity). But if you are defining the violation of boundaries as foundationally the same as running around behind your partners back fucking other people? Well I would think that might be a complicated debate worth having.

I’m just trying to establish the parameters of the discussion before formulating a response.

@hikingout - I never take your responses as anything but caring and am always appreciative of your wisdom. As to respond to why I’m asking and posting? I was in another thread earlier and discussion about porn, strip clubs were a topic. It made me wonder what others thought. I do think we can make marriages vulnerable. For me and how I’m wired, they are hard limits because I feel like I’m comparing myself. Why am I not good enough mentality. I do have a friend though who she and her husband enjoy strip clubs and go together. It spiked my curiosity. ****Definitely not comparing my infidelity with that of my H. I will always and forever say that my A was completely on me and my choice. I was wrong and never a reason no matter the situation.

@HoldingTogether- I was thinking of infidelity and cheating as synonymous but you’re right, technically different so good points made when thinking that way.

@The1stwife- Good Point. Couples set acceptable boundaries.

@ EllieK- secrecy, good point.

@ Sisoon - Yes, agreed. Slippery slope and I think those slippery slopes can open the doors. I do believe it’s important to try to “fail proof” marriages but couples decide what is acceptable for them.

@Oldwounds- agree with all.

[This message edited by Hutch at 1:53 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Good. I just wanted to make sure of the line of thinking. I push on those things because I know that the self work is worth it and will change your perspective over all so I am glad you take it that way.

I think porn and strip clubs have so many variables it would be according to the thoughts and feelings of both parties.

As far as cheating, infidelity, unfaithfulness, betrayal, whatever term you wish to use. I have my own thought of exactly when that begins, and I've seen it said before.

No person is immune to feeling an attraction to someone other than their partner, physically or emotionally, at some point. If that happens and you are able to just let it go, to not dwell on it or keep thinking about it, then that's really not an issue, it's understandable and can be expected, I don't think it would even necessary to mention it. However, if you realize you can't just let it go, if it stays on your mind, if it keeps coming back to your mind, at the very moment you choose to keep that to yourself, to not confess to your partner and ask them to help you through those feelings, that's the very moment of betrayal, the rest is down hill from there. (betrayal the term I'm choosing to use)

BH here. For me, cheating is interacting with a live person. Doesn't have to be in-person. Any hidden emotional element, for sure. But I would have never felt a need to find this place if I found out WW like to occasionally rub one out using porn.

Prior to the A, we've had occasions where she or I were invited to a Bachelor/ette, birthday, etc. wherein a stripper or strip club was on the itinerary. Although, I was a bit uncomfortable and I'm sure she was too, it was never a big deal and neither of us gave each other a hard time about it. It was never a secret. Post A, I'm not having it. I'm not sure what her view is now, but I'd ask her how she felt and likely try to avoid a night that included that. I'm mid 40's and haven't participated in such an evening in a long while. We've talked about the difference between finding something on each others phones, etc. that is embarrassing (e.g. porn), vs some type of betrayal(e.g. sexting or other type of relationship evidence). Just my take.

See, I think defining the terms under discussion is important. Because, as I see it, everyone has the right to set their own terms as to what they do and do not see as acceptable for their relationship. With the caveat that those terms are explicitly laid out and agreed to by all parties in the relationship. That’s just about setting good personal boundaries. You could call them rules of the relationship.

Cheating, as commonly defined, would most likely encompass almost any violation of those boundaries, or rules:

Cheating generally describes various actions designed to subvert rules in order to obtain unfair advantages

So, by that definition, lying or concealing financial issues could be cheating the established financial rules. Same could go with gambling, drinking, shopping, household chores... the list could go on infinitely.

But this website is “Surviving Infidelity” not “Surviving the Many various ways in which people fuck up their relationships”. And for good reason. That second website would be a lot fucking busier, more confusing and just about impossible to moderate. Plus it already kind of exists... it’s called pretty much all of the rest of the Internet.

So, for our purposes here, it’s probably best to kind of whittle shit down to some specifics. A better question, and one more directly related to the subject matter to which this website is dedicated, would probably be: “What defines infidelity?” I’m sure you would still get a big variety of responses, but at least it narrows the focus to the issue at hand rather than muddling it with a bunch of peripheral (although still important) relationship issues.

If it seems as if I’m being kind of a nit picky, pedantic pain in the ass? That’s only because I am . I’m trying to be as precise as possible because this kind of discussion can be a bit of a minefield.

Because, while on the one hand, it is very important to me to try and avoid in any way appearing to minimize or dismiss the pain of any other members personal experience... On the other hand, I am also very hesitant to accept having any of the pain of my personal experience potentially minimized by having it equated to just about any old thing anybody else on here might decide qualifies as the same thing.

Does that make sense?

As an example of the first instance. We often see threads here explicitly asking “what is worse an EA or a PA?”. Those threads always make me cringe a bit. Because, while I might have an opinion on the subject, I fail to see how hearing my opinion about that subject is going to help any one struggling with the fallout of an EA or a PA themselves. If I say one is worse, then I would risk minimizing the pain of someone dealing with the fallout of the other. And to what end really? Is saying one is worse going to make anyone feel any better? Probably not. So I tend to stick with a stock answer to questions like that: “The worst most painful thing that ever happened to you personally, is the worst most painful thing that ever happened to you.”

But... as just one example of the second instance. We once had a WS here that was agonizing over what she considered her “mental infidelity”. You see, she had thought about sleeping with another man. Hadn’t done it, hadn’t even laid the ground work for an affair, no EA. Just a fantasy. And while I’m sure that knowledge would have been painful to her BS, if someone here were to try to say that her fantasizing about an affair were some how the same as my wife fucking my best friend behind my back on several occasions over the course of 9 months?

Well, let me just say for the record (as politely as I possibly can) that I whole heartedly fucking disagree.

And that’s where I have a problem with the idea that everyone just gets to decide for themselves what constitutes infidelity. Because, while I can agree that there might be a broad continuum upon which infidelity exists... It cannot be simply infinite. At least it cannot be without running the almost certain risk of watering down the terminology to the point where it minimizes the trauma that I and many others have experienced.

So I feel that, while things like strip clubs and pornography (to use the examples sited earlier) can be problematic, and they can be violations of established boundaries, and they can certainly be considered betrayals and they can certainly be reasonably considered a basis for terminating a relationship with someone...

I do not consider them the same as or equal to infidelity.

Because if my wife had had a porn problem instead of a “fucking my best friend problem” some of the following things might be different...

Porn wouldn’t have exposed me to the risk of an std.

Porn wouldn’t have been able to bragg to its friends that it was banging HT’s wife and he doesn’t have a fucking clue.

Porn wouldn’t have started talking about starting a new life together with my wife.

Porn wouldn’t have thereby encouraged the idea of my wife divorcing me and taking half our assets and 50% custody of my children.

Porn wouldn’t have had the potential to start up a new life with my wife. Completely and utterly replacing me.

I wouldn’t have had to consider the possibility of spending the rest of my life fucking coparenting with Porn.

Porn wouldn’t have visited me in my home just a week after fucking my wife in a motel and embraced me and lied to my face pretending to be my friend.

Unsuspecting spouses do not have a disturbingly frequent history of being fucking murdered by jealous Porn.

Now, that is not by any means a full and complete list but I think you can get the general idea of what I am trying to say.

So I guess the answer to who get to define infidelity is: WE do. We as a collective society. And it changes and evolves. There are cultures where a woman simply speaking to a man not related to her is considered a form of adultery. Do we all have to agree with that definition simply because “everyone gets to decide for themselves”? I fucking hope not.

No. We, as a collective group, get to decide what constitutes infidelity. I hope we make it inclusive so as not to minimize anyone’s pain. But not too inclusive... so as not to minimize anyone’s pain.

It’s a good discussion to have. I look forward to watching it continue to unfold.

HT

I define what is cheating and what is not in my life.

For example, I love to shoot, hunt, fish, camp, ride my hog and work in my woodshop. I have allotted time throughout the week, month and year for these activities. Sometimes my family joins me (camping for instance or taking my wife for a ride on the bike) and sometimes they don't.

If any of these activities take additional time away from my family then I need to reevaluate what is more important.

As far as strip clubs and porn, never been my thing.