SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What the heck is going on with the recent trend of ye olde timey posters returning after a decade, after they thought their WS had done the work and they were reconciled, to say that they're either cheating again, or it never ended!?!?!

I'm honestly freaking out and on the verge of a panic attack after just reading another BS returning to SI after many, many, many years of false R.

How can you tell if a WH is truly remorseful? Truly doing the work? JFC I'm really freaked out right now.

My gut feels like things are good, but how can I trust it? How can I know? Is there really no hope for anyone? Are the ones that think they're happily ever reconciled right now speaking too soon and need to wait another year or two for the WS's next A?!

I was talking with my fWH about white knuckle recovery vs change-of-heart recovery. We used his driving as an analogy for the discussion. Forcing himself to drive sanely, calmly is unnatural for him after 40 years of driving habits. But if he truly from the heart loved other people, and someone ignored his merge-signal, he'd just slow down, chalk up their aggressiveness to someone having a bad day instead of pissing him off, and then move over.

Part of what I look for in recovery is if the heart is changed. If I'm giving a list of things he needs to do for amends, he can still be lazy and he can white knuckle his way through being faithful to me. There is no organic love that guides his actions.

Several examples of return flights to SI have been where past wrongs got rug-swept, assumed they were back on track and time passed. Even when there was more love and affection being shown, The wayward is not organically being more loving, more transparent, more invested in the marriage. They're in the fake-it-til-you-make-it mindset instead of the face-it-til-you-make-it.

I'm 6 years out from D-day, and we still talk about it. He's no longer uncomfortable with me reading and posting here, though he was up until the last few months when I told him it would take as long as it takes. There are still areas he has to work on and I'm not going to prompt him. But I watch for change-of-heart behaviors as progress bench marks. He didn't become a cheater over night. The cure won't happen over night either, no matter what Dr. Seuss says!

It scares me too. I honestly think it’s a gamble. A huge one.

I never reconciled, never was given a choice. It probably would have been hard for me to give up had I had a choice.

I don't know. I've never cheated. I suppose in some way I don't know how. The waywards all know how. So they have to be vigilant as to not fall back in to old habits or fall back in with old, bad friends.

I think it would be harder than a physical addiction. Though I have never had one of those. Not impossible to live without ever touching a controlled substance. Living without love, or whatever the waywards get from their dalliances? There's a lot bigger range of environments, stimuli, that could cause someone to go there again.

It's different than those situations. I think it asks a lot of the BS to handle it themselves. And they have to. Maybe our society, communities should help more. We tend not to want to do those kind of things any more. People are on their own. It is a lot for the BS to handle. Some of them want to reconcile from Day One. I can relate, but the typical WS needs a lot of push back to get them back to being a decent person. From what I can see most BS here are too easy on their WS. Easy to say when you are not the one. But maybe they should kick them out more often, divorce with the option to date. Beyond finances and other crap where I can understand BS being motivated to stay.

It scares me too. I honestly think it’s a gamble. A huge one

I agree.

How does a BS ever really know if the effort the WS is putting in is enough to protect them from another trip through hell? When I read a BS insist their WS was doing everything right in R, that they were happier than they had ever been and it was like a new marriage only to implode anyway years later I wonder what the point was. Of all the pain, the work, therapy, tears and healing. For what? Nothing is going to protect us from this shit.

It doesn't matter what we do. At the end of the day if someone still has weak boundaries the house of cards will fall.

I don't know. It must be an addiction because I can't see cheating being worth the toll it takes.

It bothers me too, and to be honest I would not be a bit surprised if it happens again here too.

Color me cynical but I’ve been down this road before, and I’m ready to D if the need arises.

It’s a risk. A huge one. There is no glossing over the fact that a cheater is far more likely to do it again, than a partner who has never cheated. I totally agree with others who believe it’s another form of addiction, those highs are just such good rushes.

I am not in a position of reconciliation or anywhere close but rather than think about the WS and their flaws and likelihood, we have to put our thoughts into us. What are our benefits for staying with those risks? For me, if my husband was to work on himself, it would be to keep my family intact and not have the disruption of other partners and their children brought into their lives. It would be because the financial stability it ensured would bring greater opportunities for my children. It would be because I’m becoming more of a pragmatist who has faced the world and doesn’t believe in happy ever afters anymore but more weighing up the scales and going with the option best suited for my family.

I think we have to imagine ourselves in ten years time facing a discovery and be able to say, I stayed for the right reasons and I’m at peace with my decision even though my direction might now change.

That’s my thoughts on it fwiw.

ETA it absolutely sucks to read these stories, my heart breaks for them.

[This message edited by Dragonfly123 at 2:15 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Honestly I have 2 thoughts about this. The first is something that I don't really see addressed here on SI and that is a number of WS stay in the marriage for the same reasons some BS do - children, financial security, fear and in some cases reputation. Love for their spouse may factor at the bottom or not at all. They manage to fool their spouse but the harsh reality is they'd walk away if they could. In the meantime the BS is working on the marriage under the impression the WS is doing the same thing.

The second is the cheater who truly cheats just because they want to, because the opportunity exists. It may be months between the 'perfect' opportunity it may be years.

In both cases the WS is not going to be particularly committed to doing any work. Oh they may do some surface repairs to pacify the BS and give the impression of working on themselves but no real work on the foundation is done leaving the door wide open to further cheating.

I think there are a few parts to this. First I think for me it matters who the WS was before the A and for how long. Was the WS always a flirty person? Was the WS always open to cheating? Were they always a closed book and having a shady behaviour? Were they faithful and a good partner dedicated to their family before the A occurred? Are they also shocked about allowing the affair to happen and engaging in destructive behaviour or do they perceive it as a fact of life, people sometimes cheat and get over it?

And then it is their actions after. Do they really do what they need to understand why they allowed it to happen? Do they understand their poor boundaries and how it happened? Are they willing and actively implementing boundaries? Do they understand fantasy vs reality and realise that even if it is nice to live in a fantasy for a while, the price to pay is way too big?

My BIL had a different way to mess up his family when he had what people sometimes call a mid life crisis. He joined fantasy world by resigning from his job and ramping up his credit card to £20,000 without his wife’s knowledge. Until she opened a bank statement and almost had a heart attack. And while I would have preferred my WH to have done the same rather than cheat, I can fully see that he did also have a crisis where real life wasn’t good enough (I’m getting old, I’m sick of being the responsible man always working hard for his family, I want some adrenaline) and tried to blow up his achievements.

Sometimes people do have a crisis. It’s hard for me to understand because I’ve always been as responsible as I could.

For me it matters if the affair was a perfect storm or habitual. Of course, like everyone here, I have no clue if I actually know everything. It could be that my WH always had an affair on the go and I just didn’t discover them. But with the information I know and looking at our past it seems unlikely. My WH didn’t confess but his behaviour gave it away. It’s fair to assume I would have noticed another change in behaviour in the past.

I’m not saying I have any guarantees he won’t cheat again. Hence why the BS also needs to do their part of the work and be prepared of this happening again. Having a plan B. Never allow themselves to become so trusting that an affair would take them fully by surprise. Assess the safety of their partner, watch their actions, trust but verify and know that they’ll be ok should it happen again.

You are a strong woman ibonnie. I can’t see you floored should another affair happen. You were determined from the first moment to get out of infidelity and you did. Additionally for me it’s like I said to my WH “I’ve given you a second chance use it wisely.” It would be the same with a new partner. There are no guarantees after all. Should you meet another man now you have no clue if he’ll cheat on you or not. The same would apply, knowing that you’re capable to stand on your own two feet should you find yourself in the same situation again.

How can you tell if a WH is truly remorseful? Truly doing the work? JFC I'm really freaked out right now.

My gut feels like things are good, but how can I trust it? How can I know?

Short answer: You'll never truly know.

All R is an absolute crap shoot for the BS. And let's not forget the waywards who go and have another affair... but get away with it. There is never another DDay. I am sure that happens quite often. BS is flitting around like a butterfly madly in love so glad that he/she stayed, believing and telling others that you really can recover the marriage, blah blah blah... And the WS is standing there smiling, agreeing, knowing they're going to take this other affair to the grave.

After all, having been through it once, don't you think they would get a lot better at hiding it? They aren't going to make the same mistake twice.

I believe there are marriages that are truly reconciled. I believe there an equal number, if not more, that contain more infidelity, but just don't have another D-Day.

I remember a story told to me by a friend about 12 years ago. A friend of hers, who I don't know, discovered an affair her husband was having. The immediately went to marriage counseling to save the marriage. My friend was shaking her head because she knew, that this was just the tip of the iceberg, that the husband had been seeing prostitutes for years, an addition to this one affair that was discovered. (Let's not get into Why the hell she didn't tell this poor woman... ). There is no way a man like that will stop cheating. And on the surface, their marriage struggle was "just" one affair.

I guess I'm not really feeling pro R this morning. I think it can work, but as others have said, it's really nothing but a gamble. Throw the dice up in the air and hope they land where you want them to. BS's really have no control over it. Or any way to predict what will happen.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 6:33 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Everyone makes very good points. But I see something insightful in what Striver wrote:

The waywards all know how. So they have to be vigilant as to not fall back in to old habits or fall back in with old, bad friends.

To be honest, I see cheating most closely as the poor coping of obesity and controlling your weight. The more needy of food as reward and escape, the more obese you are. A radical lifestyle change will be needed to alter these habits. Compare that to someone who gained 10 pounds that one time but took it off and kept it off after that. That type of cheater is a much better bet.

Just like the changes needed to stay at a healthy weight, some make those radical changes but many fight it all their lives. And because it is an unhealthy coping habit that is all around us, you need the heart change as k8la was saying. You really do. But just as with using poor eating as coping, a BS cannot control the outcome of someone else's poor coping. It would be nice to see the obvious signs of slipping into old habits like gaining weight allows, but it's not quite that simple.

Don't dismiss red flags, though. Don't minimize what you see. Because change is hard a BS must not allow the WS to resume selfish or boundary breaking behaviors. I know that has been somewhat of a challenge for me, the letting small things slide, not enforcing boundaries when I should. I try not to do it anymore because when there are small behaviors, there will soon be big behaviors.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:37 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Just because I think this thread needs a little hope: I'm wayward and have been faithful for thirty years. I'm a weird but definitely not unique case of someone who TT'd details of my long ago A, and that's what brought my BH and I here. I don't say "back here" because my cheating predates the existence of SI by at least a decade. There wasn't an internet, much less a public internet infidelity forum, in the aftermath of my A.

Just remember that most of the success stories don't come back. It's a very painful life chapter to revisit. The really long term ones never came here in the first place. I'm definitely not minimizing the fear that is caused by seeing false/failed Rs here, nor am I minimizing the pain my TT has caused my BH. It's been excruciating. I'd like to believe that the TT wouldn't have happened if I'd had access to this forum on D-day, but that may be giving my younger self too much credit. And reading over the last year here has taught me how much work I still have to do on conflict avoidance, blame shifting, and lying. I belong here, for sure.

But I'm not a repeat cheater, and I never will be. My BH will never, ever be faced with new betrayal, new mind movies, new grief, or new uncertainty. I know how lucky I am to have been given a second chance. My BH is safe until the day I die.

I didn't return...I never left...how sick is that?

which is my point...MOst everyone, has no idea how or what to do after infidelity hits the marriage...we spend most of the first year, numb, in shock, barely functioning...there isn't a lot of knowledge..

WE have to learn....we have to research and read...because many try to fix the impossible...they don't know any better...I am referring to the serial cheater...NPD...mental issues...addicts...abusers....these issues make it near impossible to move forward ….the battle just got bigger...way bigger...

That's what I did...I didn't realize WH was serial cheater...I thought he loved me...I didn't realize he was alcoholic.. although I thought he drank more then I would prefer...All his cheating and drinking happened while he traveled in his career..I had never heard of NPD......without knowing....I kept trying and hoping to fix this..

I look back now, and see how much I didn't know...I was trying to maneuver thru the pain, when the challenge was already impossible to fix...you have to know your spouse....you have to see who your spouse is, for the first time...not all marriages can be saved...and many of us spend years trying.....and learning...because we love them..our love was real.

Little by little, SI has shown me and taught me to see...to know who he really is...and they were absolutely right...I feel I wasted 10 years of my life...I am better educated on infidelity and mental issues and alcoholism...I hope I never use it again...The NPD allowed him to hide so much...

I gave the WH the chance to fix this....I considered D many times....he continued to be dishonest, to hide everything...and cheat...What can you do, when they pretend to try. its a very stressful cat and mouse game...that's why I stayed on SI...the stress was over the top.

You have to really understand and accept, this could happen again...if it doesn't...that's great... but.....its happened before..

I had some positives in that 10 years...My childrens lives...my goals for them...more time together as a family.....If it had been zero, then I would have known it was hopeless..its that foggy middle area, that keeps you hanging around...just enough hope.

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 8:18 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Once a cheater always a cheater is a myth.

However, if you rugsweep and don't put in the work/guidelines around R the chances are higher because the capability is there.

From what I've seen to many jump back in change nothing and expect different results.

There can never be a guarantee but with the proper tools/boundaries/lifestyle changes in place you can give yourself a better chance.

It's also has to be a lifetime change. I don't think it's a 2-3 year thing and then you're good.

[This message edited by Marz at 7:56 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

You have hit on something I have observed. In our culture we love the weddings but forget the marriage. Two people bring all of their life experiences with them. They bring their DNA. They bring their parents and their siblings and their friends. Marriage is crowded. It is room after room after room of memories and experiences before the wedding. Sorting all that out and trying to live with a person is a tough job. You need maturity and you need boundaries.

The long-term marriages that I witness are between two people who bring health with them. I’m talking emotional and mental health. You can’t sustain a long-term relationship if you are so damaged that you have no ability to say no to enticements. It’s a kid at the fair who eats so much cotton candy they throw up. The next day at the fair they eat the same amount of cotton candy and throw up again. They don’t have the maturity to say no to themselves. People who are not mature emotionally don’t have the ability to say no to themselves.

I have friends and coworkers who talk about their marriages and their divorces. In every single divorce the person who cheated was never committed to the marriage. They had all the excuses as to why they married. Some got pregnant, some felt pressure from family, some had a long relationship and felt guilty. Whatever the reason they were not 100% committed and that made them vulnerable to cheating. These were mostly women that told me the stories. One or two were men in their 40s whose jobs had driven them so crazy that they just turned to the first thing they found that could get them out of their misery. In fact, I read that men who have midlife crises usually do so over job unhappiness.

The longer I live the more I feel that women need a way to look after themselves financially. If they are stay at home moms then they need to be paid and that money invested in something. Unfortunately human beings are not very trustworthy. We hope that the person we are married to is the one that will never lie to us, mistreat us, or cheat. Statistics prove what we all recognize. There is no guarantee.

Every marriage has its bumps in the road. It’s how we deal with them that tells us whether we are going to be loyal or not.

My suggestion is to look at how they live the rest of their lives not just their marriage. If they continue to tell little lies at work or to their friends. If they continue to go to bars rather than stay home. If they prefer anything other than your company. If they pout and hold grudges. If they are not 100% committed to your welfare I don’t consider them marriage material

My FWH and I were "soulmates". I thought...

We were ecstatically happy - I thought we were, and maybe we actually were.

For 5 years, we were inseparable. Paupers, living off love. Trying to conceive - going through miscarriage, fertility, and adoption hell. But together.

Then the firs child came, then 2 more. Fast. And he couldn't "hang". I was paying too much attention to them. (3 boys ages 2 months, 12 months, and 3 1/2 years).

I don't know when his cheating started. He looked at porn, and (says) he was with one prostitute one time.

I have no idea if that is the whole story. I agree with the other posters who say we can never REALLY know. Which is really shitty for us AND also shitty for a truly remorseful spouse.

I think all we can do is to look deep into ourselves and ask how we can move forward with this person.

If we cannot - then we cannot.

If we can, we must determine what we must have to feel safe, and require that of our partner.

We must stick to that in the event of repeat offenses.

My case was a bit different than some, because his health was failing and he didn't actually have the opportunity to repeat offend. Not much consolation for me. I "won" by default.

I decided to stay. For many reasons. Age, finances, kids with issues, commitment - not necessarily in that order. But I stayed.

I believe my FWH did not reoffend. But I have no way of knowing. Not with a lie detector, or anything short of a personal audience with God telling me so!

I say all this to say that I believe we have to determine what we are willing to risk, do the hard work together, and move forward in whatever direction it takes us.

But we can never REALLY know. There are no guarantees.

The only thing we truly have/know is ourselves.

But, I will say - on a positive note - that I do believe there are people who overcome this hell. I have "met" former waywards on this site who seem to be some of the best people around.

I guess we all just have to decide what we need to move forward, and what we are willing to risk.

I wish you peace of mind. It's so very hard.

As a BS who found out about my WS’s A going underground 17 yrs later .. when I discovered the A in 2002 we did IC and MC .. for many years following good things did result as a result of IC .. my WS received a phone call from OW’s friend less than a yr out , who told him she missed him .. WS calls OW .. they had an EA via phone for 6 yrs .. he said told himself she was a good friend 😜 he saw her a few times during the 6 years .. the PA began back in 2009 .. during a rough time in our lives ..he saw her 2 times a year for a few days .he would have her meet him where he was .. she flew to Florida , Tx , SC .. Hawaii.. . during this time my gut kept telling me something was up but looking at his phone .. tracking his phone there was nothing .. little did I know he had another phone .. WS did make all the right moves after DDay in 2002 .. loving .. there was nothing to show me he wasn’t committed to me .. in 2009 the selfish ness showed a few times .. then back to normal .. and continued until April of this month .. I suspected but couldn’t prove anything .. the last 2 years I just went into a depression of sorts .. no desire to do anything at all I did for my kids , my grandchildren but WS .. was like a friend no real emotional attachment .. 50 th wedding anniversary and he has me planning the whole trip reservations for plane dinners etc .. we were at a hotel in San Francisco and planning to go to breakfast .. A big trigger hits me .. shake it off .. later at airport another trigger hits . on our anniversary ..we went for a ride and another big trigger , later I see WS walk into our apt head to bedroom and close the door .. another door is open so walk in that door and see him standing by his dresser drawer and putting his razor kit in the drawer .. next day he ran out for a minute and I see kit bag in the dinning room so look in and found the phone .. DDay .. this time different IC WS begged for time .. Divorce is on hold for a year .. this time he is different.. so hard to explain .. so giving him another chance .. he is showing me he is committed to me .. time will tell .. he takes full responsibility for the A ..

[This message edited by dancin-gal at 8:27 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Over the course of 20+ years, my WS had several EAs/PAs. Since the last Dday she has done a ton of work, was diagnosed as a SA, continues to be diligent with regular accountability and believes she will need to continue that path for the rest of her life. As a result, my own perspective is:

1. It can be easy for the WS to not do the necessary work and for the BS to believe things are better. I did it multiple times. Each time I thought I understood what the issue was and often I came to the conclusion that I had some responsibility for the A and/or I had something that I could do to safeguard the marriage. For example, after the first A, I bought into "It was a mistake, I'm so sorry and I'll never do that again" while later it was "If I don't travel periodically for work she will be happier and I'll be able to defend against her getting into an inappropriate relationship." After almost every time of going into "R", things seemed to be good -- until they weren't. False R isn't that difficult to fall into. WS's can be very convincing.

2. Only the WS can fix themselves. They have to clearly see that they are broken and that they don't fully understand why and then choose that they are going to figure out why and do something about it. Anything short of that is lining them up to fall again at some future point.

3. For a serial WS, the effort to remain "sober" is likely a lifetime, ongoing effort. The cheating was likely traced back to something is their FOO (family of origin) or childhood and it created patterns/coping mechanisms that have been deeply engrained. While those can be addressed and new habits put into place, they aren't ever totally erased and it takes consistent effort/vigilence to keep them from resurfacing.

My own perspective on return visitors is that the vast majority of their WS's simply didn't do "The Work" and didn't commit to long term change. Some instead did just enough to manipulate the BS into staying. Other WSs may have even believed that they would never cheat again. (Some may have just been really good liars and actors, but usually those BSs returning from this show up in 2-5 years.) Because the WS didn't actually find the root of their character gap and deal with it, when circumstances came back around that provided an opportunity for them to get ego kibbles through an A, they did it again.

However, even though I believe that explains most return visitors, knowing that my serial cheating SA has to work to remain "sober" also leads me to another conclusion -- I don't know that she'll never cheat again. I've seen her change and grow in some truly amazing ways. We have a stronger, healthier relationship than we've ever had. I also know that it takes ongoing effort, that she is thankful for her IC and that we periodically have discussions about things she continues to learn about herself and the occasional challenge she is facing and how her new patterns are working for her. As a result, I continue to choose to be with her and believe that R is real because she has changed, she is authentic, she cares and she prioritizes doing what is necessary to protect herself and our marriage. In short, she has earned my trust again, but my trust isn't as blind or naive as it once was.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 8:31 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

There are many reasons R can fail.

Sometimes it should not have been entered into in the first place. There are a couple of recent threads where the couple got together as older people and the affair occurred early in the new marriage or coupling. In a case like that, I don't know what any WS could say that would be convincing. Maybe those are cases where R should not be attempted. You were married before, or single for a long time, now committed again... doesn't pass the smell test to me.

One thing I do not believe from WS is when they say they never will cheat again. BECAUSE I'M A BS, AND I CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT!!! We are all sinners. It's not like I don't know why people cheat, the benefits they get from it. I have not done it, do not want to, but I could be tempted. Part of the way to not cheating is realizing that you COULD do it and staying away from tempting situations. Like flirting. WS often seem to say to themselves that they can handle flirting as long as it doesn't lead to sex. Maybe not. You are human, we all are, you need to remain vigilant. We all have weaknesses. Yet I hear waywards on here, who have seemingly done their work, saying "I'm less likely to cheat someone who as never cheated" and "I will never cheat again!!!" There are things in the personality type of WS, the typical love of words, that I am very wary of.

I remember a story told to me by a friend about 12 years ago. A friend of hers, who I don't know, discovered an affair her husband was having. The immediately went to marriage counseling to save the marriage. My friend was shaking her head because she knew, that this was just the tip of the iceberg, that the husband had been seeing prostitutes for years, an addition to this one affair that was discovered. (Let's not get into Why the hell she didn't tell this poor woman... ). There is no way a man like that will stop cheating. And on the surface, their marriage struggle was "just" one affair.

Ugh, disgusting. Your friend should have told but I do have a little sympathy for her with the "ignorance is bliss" attitude most people have outside of SI and how if she doesn't have proof, she's not likely to be believed. I mean, how many BSes here buy the story that they were "just looking" on that escort site or they called a prostitute but didn't go through with it?

I've had the unfortunate pleasure of knowing about the men who hire prostitutes through working girls I knew in college just trying to pay their rent. I heard about this one guy in so deep he was about to lose his job because he took too many "breaks" and for too long to see prostitutes without his wife knowing. This other guy I heard about would bring them into his home while his wife was at work and pretend like he was hiring them as models for his photography so she wouldn't know he was sleeping with them.

I only got a glimpse into that lifestyle but what I heard about has made me have a very poor view of married men who pay prostitutes. I don't believe at all that a WS looking for sex and paying for it does it only once. That's as big as a lie as saying they only slept with AP once and doesn't even make sense to me. They wanted sex. They got sex. It was probably good because it was done by a professional. They don't have to worry about feelings or being outed by an AP. If nothing terrible happened, why wouldn't they go back?

My point is, it takes a special kind of WS to go to prostitutes and I think that puts them in the highest risk bracket for re-offending especially if the BS doesn't push for some form of truth or doesn't hold them accountable for it. The addiction is stronger and the temptation is greater.