SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The quick recap: I posted a couple of months ago that I believed BH was having an emotional affair. Responses were basically divided — I was projecting, BH is hurt and seeking support from a trusted source, or BH should not nurture that relationship. I had not really said anything to BH because I didn’t feel I had the right.

The update:

- I finally told BH I was uncomfortable with his relationship with his friend because I felt that the energy he was putting into her was taking away from opportunities for us to do our work

- He said that if I asked him to scale back on their friendship, it would be a “major problem”

- He said she’s in his circle of trust (and obviously I’m not). Specifically, he said that he did not know he was capable of this level of trust with anyone but now he sees that it’s possible because he’s experienced it with her

- BH acknowledges that he was pitting me and his friend against each other. It wasn’t intentional, but rather, he was creating unnecessary tension based on assumptions and fears

- BH also admitted that he would purposely not tell me that he made plans with her because he didn’t want to deal with my reaction. I explained that the reaction wasn’t about the plans, but it was to him not telling me about them in the first place

I was clear that I have no issues with her, and that it would actually be nice to have a better friendship with her. So now she comes over every Friday. Today, he asked her to stay for dinner. I watched him be kind, soft and talkative with her, serving her dinner and clearing her dishes (but not mine), while he remains cold to me. It doesn’t feel good, but I’ve decided to just let it be. I don’t feel defeated or resigned, just accepting of the fact that I cannot ask BH to stop doing something he wants to do, even if that leads to crossing my boundaries. I’ve stopped labeling it an EA, because what difference does it make what you call it? I feel like I’ve expressed my concerns and I know I can’t control how he behaves. I do wonder why she decides to come over every week. She lives 2 hours away, but apparently, she’s always “in the area.” He did give me a heads up yesterday that she might be stopping by today, so I guess that shows he’s listened to what I’ve said and is willing to try out new behavior.

So I guess if I had a question here, it would be: is leaving it alone a bad idea? I mean, I know that every BS copes in different ways, so should I just see this as his way of reconciling his pain? (Personally, EA or not, I think it’s a distraction, which makes me think that we will just be stuck where we are in our healing process.) Our next MC session is on Monday and I will definitely be bringing this one up.

Did their ‘friendship’ become more intense after dday or was it always like that? Also do you not suspect it could be PA?

Major problem, major flag.

All you can do is explain that it makes you feel uncomfortable and that it’s adding another person upon the issues already on the table. He’s said elimination is a major problem. Things status quo are a major problem for you. He’s choosing to keep her in his life. There are consequences for that and they depend on your choice going forward.

It’s his choice to decide where he wants the relationship to go. Would you consider moving out?

The biggest flag to me is that he’s admitted he’s never experienced trust like this. Maybe that’s a jab at you. Maybe it’s his current truth. Either way imagining my husband saying that about a buddy of the same sex would also send a flag to me. He’d never make a comment like that about a male so it would be absolutely inappropriate to say about lady friend. My husband certainly gets an escape when he goes out with his buds but it’s more like a round of golf or a movie that I wouldn’t like and a beer after. I don’t know.

Bottom line, it makes you feel uncomfortable so it’s right you say something. Have you committed to reconciling or are you both still in recovery?

What he is doing is wrong. Period.

As a BS, I understand the pain and the need for emotional support.

Get it from a brother, a male friend, a minister, anyone but another woman.

He might get defensive if you ask him to end this friendship, and he might feel justified because he will say it's all because of your actions, blah, blah, blah.

He's making plans with her in secret, nope, a huge red flag. I would not tolerate it.

If he wants R, the focus is on the marriage.

He is passive aggressively punishing you (example, dishes) and telling you your eyes deceive you. He may even believe what he is saying to you but it may also be intentional. It’s messed up imho and I think it is weird she’s a weekly fixture.

Part of a strong marriage is clear boundaries with people outside the marriage and your spouse should be the one you 100% confide in. No secrets. No looking to other people to talk.

This is concerning because if he isn’t willing to make you his #1 confidant, are either of you truly healing? Have either of you read Not Just Friends? It talks a lot about firm boundaries with people outside of your marriage and how to set them.

He’s allowed to be in pain. He’s allowed to have friends. You both still need to keep your marriage between both of you. This is like opening a window and letting someone else inside.

He’s wrong. Cheating doesn’t now give a BS a free pass to do whatever they want. Has he committed to reconciliation? If so then part of that is respecting boundaries, i.e. not having an emotional affair.

Is she still married? What does her husband think of all this?

Are you sure it hasn’t gone any further? Is he hoping for an open relationship or something?

The clearing her dishes and not yours, the treatment of her, to me shows more than friendship and is a big red flag.

Just because you cheated you don’t now need to bury your head in the sand and accept whatever he does. You’re still a person. Still his wife.

IDK, I'm not the best person to answer this, I really don't know how to be "just friends" with a woman. But, I'd ask a few questions based on what you said. Is the other woman attractive (or do you think she's attractive to your H)? Is the married? Happily? When you had dinner with her, did she talk about her H or BF in a positive way, negative way, or not at all?

The doing it in front of you is probably just plain old "rubbing your nose in it", look at how nice I can be to someone who didn't cheat on me. I could see myself doing that, but I also won't sit here and say it's the right thing to do, it's juvenile and destructive. But I understand the possible motivation there.

What does your gut tell you? Is your H a "catch" for this woman (wealthy, very good looking, powerful, etc)?

Personally, I think it's a valid concern. If your H is anything like me, he's "weak" from your A, he feels somewhat justified in having an RA (right or wrong, I do feel that way too) and coupling those two things together, if this woman is attractive, she holds a lot of cards in your M. She could try to seduce your H using their existing friendship and he may not have the same barriers in place after the A that he had before.

Have you tried approaching it from the BS POV as you learning as a WS? Telling him how it makes you feel. Telling him and empathizing with him that you think he must have felt the same when you did this. Although true, I don't know if telling him that the friendship is a "distraction" is the best course of action. At least from your POV, maybe from the MCs would be better.

I felt that the energy he was putting into her was taking away from opportunities for us to do our work

I think it’s a distraction

Sounds more like you are putting the brunt of R on the marriage and him. The focus of you choosing to cheat on the marriage being fixed. You may not be doing so, but by telling him these things it comes across as hypocritical if he isn't ready yet to work for the marriage. Great that you know what is best for the marriage after you ruined it with cheating type of stuff. Great that you want to fight for something you threw away. Great that you know best and what is good for "us" when it really is to him what "you want". Yes, it is a distraction. Yes, it isn't healthy. I bet to him though it comes across as more what you want and selfish in a way. Are you even at that point personally? It doesn't sound like he is. It sounds like he is still trying to heal and he does sound like he is showing you who you threw away. Showing you what you destroyed. What he was/is and you took for granted. Do you get it? He is obviously still healing and you want to pick up where you left off and make it better. Are you both healed to even do that? Have you changed and addressed your whys? Have you even had the chance to focus on you or have you focused all the self reflection even possibly avoiding it by focusing on him and this friend?

I think your situation is unusual because really you have not been in love with your husband for a long time. I am not sure he loves you either - more he is just insistent he will call the shots. He doesn’t want a divorce. I think it’s positive that he is finally breaking down and going to therapy and starting to sift through a lot of his dysfunctional Foo and anger issues. It’s never been a good marriage from anything you have said. . You are there from what I can tell out of obligation and commitment.

You know that as long as he is doing this you aren’t going to move forward. That is a reasonable thing for anyone to believe. I don’t know, at this point why go on? I am not saying I believe you should do any specific action, it’s a sincere question: what is keeping you there? I know you want your daughter to have a good life but it doesn’t seem like the two of you can model a healthy marriage. You are miserable from what I have been able to tell. Again I am not lobbying you to do anything, I really am trying to learn the answer.

You do have rights in this marriage regardless. Him continuing to insist you do not does not make it true. I will be interested in seeing what MC says - my guess is they too will see this as an impediment moving forward. If I had to predict he will then gaslight you and won’t continue therapy. I hope I am wrong. The fact this woman is also participating and enjoying this little parade they are doing tells me she is not a healthy influence in your husbands life. I am genuinely concerned for you.

As a BS, a recovering CoD and having been in a dysfunctional relationship with a serial cheater, let me be blunt...

First, he is having an EA and actively disrespecting you.

Second, from your original post...

I blame myself, of course, and will always look back and see how broken I was when, and even long before, it began. But the truth is, my BH is broken himself. He’s acknowledged that to me, and honestly, what better fit for a mismatched marriage than two broken people finding each other? We have spent a lot of time addressing our upbringings and the impact it’s had on us as individuals and as a couple, and I guess it’s best described as the codependent-narcissist relationship. We are quintessentially that.

So, no, you don't leave all of this alone. However, you'll have to recognize that you can only control and fix yourself. Your BH (and now WH) can only do that for himself.

IMO, your first and primary focus should be on yourself -- recognizing the underlying patterns in your own life and marriage, seeing how there is brokenness, taking responsibility for your own issues/choices and working hard to change and heal. Regardless of how anything else plays out, you need to be healthy. That is lots and lots of self-work. That can be helped some by a good IC.

Your other decision will be about your own boundaries. While your BH can decide that what you did is a deal breaker and that the marriage should end, that isn't the path he is taking. He is having what appears to be a revenge EA and is rubbing it in your face. He is *actively* manipulating you into accepting it. He is enjoying the feeling of sitting on the fence and having two women compete. Your boundaries should be that you won't tolerate being manipulated and used. If your MC doesn't see this dynamic, actively address your BH's behaviors and stand up for your boundaries, then it's a waste of your time and money.

If he started getting closer to ow after d-day, I think this is likely to be a revenge EA. If it was going on long before d-day, I'd call it an EA, and I'd would expect it's gone physical, because of proximity and opportunity.

IMO, you now need to heal as a BS in addition to healing as a WS.

As a WS, healing is changing from cheater to good partner. Your best bet, IMO, is to start/continue doing that.

As a BS, your healing involves processing the grief, anger, fear, and shame that comes with being betrayed out of your body, and it requires creating and maintaining your boundaries. Your M probably can't continue with this woman as part of it, so - if we're right about what is going on - eventually you'll have to tell your H to choose ow or you.

But healing takes time, so you don't have to do this today. I do hope you choose to take action to heal today and everyday.

Bw here-

Trust me, when I tell you she hasnt any real meaning, other than tool. His self esteem is shot and he is literally USING HER (as she is him) as a means to show you he is desired by other women. He is only infatuated in terms of himself. It is normal.

Twelve years ago, my husband up and left (the mistake was in taking him back)... he IS extremely neglectful emotionally and sexually. I immediately found attention from the opposite sex.I never had that before and I knew I didnt and would never love the guy....I had no emotional or sexual connection...an ego-stroke for the most part...However, I didnt throw it in my husbands face, because as far as I was concerned, I wanted a divorce. It did validate to me that I am not some disgusting vomitous mass, that my husband has lead me to believe.

He isnt "the big bad man" other waywards (some betrayed) are trying to convince you (THEMSELVES) of...He is traumatized and what he is doing makes about as sense as what you have done.

I haven't any doubt that he would like you to have an idea of what his pain is like and this is his way of expressing that to you. I don't believe it to be as malignant as some are trying to make it out to be. He has been pretty open about it, he is essentially advertizing it because he wants you to see that he isnt the piece of garbage you have portrayed him to be. He wants you to find him as sexy as you did the AP. He is feeling pretty shitty in terms of his virility.

This is a learning lesson for him, just as it is you, if you allow it to be. In hindsight, he will look back on this woman with clarity. It is a given. However, you are given the choice, you refused to afford him. You can divorce him. This is your Karma-its cause and effect. You created a shit storm and now he is dealing with the aftermath. As far as hes concerned, the marriage has been over and he feels like a chump because he missed the memo.

Just remember you robbed him of his self esteem, as a means to compensate your own lack of self worth. It's not unlike vampirism, it spreads.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 1:12 PM, October 19th (Saturday)]

BW here

This situation is why I refused to stay in my marriage after dday 2. My now ex wanted to call the shots after he blew the marriage to shit. He all of a sudden was suspicious of all of my activities, even though I was 100% loyal for 16 years.

Does it feel crappy to you? I'm positive it does.

I don't know if he's giving you a taste of your own medicine, if he's cultivating an affair, or just trying to make sense of his new existence. But regardless of his motives, he's being more transparent than you were and you've been given the gift of deciding to stay or go based on the current happenings, where he was ultimately blindsided.

If you are intent on reconciling, this is the new reality. Definitely keep up the open communication with him because that will be the key to reconciliation if you go that route. But you don't get to hold the cards in this situation.

Twicefooled -I can appreciate that we all see through the lens of our own situation and yours sound horrific. Her h has been abusive their entire marriage and is just now willing to go to therapy to correct it. Her h is hiding spending time with this person, and seeking her out for all of his emotional support. Spent their entire family vacation on the phone with her. It’s an affair, at least an EA if not more. He has only continued to have grown bolder with it because she hasn’t stopped it. This woman is helping him flaunt this, which is really not in his best interest if he wants to reconcile. So her intentions are malicious. Anti-hero’s affair was a few years ago, this is happening right now. She absolutely can call the shots in asking him to rededicate himself to the marriage or end the marriage. There is no other rational choice. They are already done from what I can tell, why prolong this misery and in front of their daughter? If both partners are not in it then I think either can call the shots and leave. Not every bs is a good or healthy spouse.

BS here ... I'd give you the same advice I'd give any other spouse - this is a friendship that is crossing the boundaries - and only because of your marital history are you allowing it. You've made clear that you're not comfortable with this "friendship" and he's made clear that he will continue it. I think you need to do a 180, if his friendship is more important than your marriage then he is not reconciling.

I think that other than the very fact of this woman being around, you don't like not being in control.

If he is being honest with you about what is going on with this woman, then it isn't an "affair" and if you are in a separation of sorts would not consider it cheating, at least not from the BS side.

Whatever the situation and relationship is, it's up to you whether or not you accept it, and he is within his rights to work with you or tell you to that if you don't like it, then you can sever your relationship with him.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 1:14 AM, October 20th (Sunday)]

BS here, agreeing with twicefooled. Don't know about any abusive background by the H here, but I can totally understand the rest of it. He does not feel that he is getting emotional support from you, why not?

I don't think the increased visits are him ramping up to an EA/PA, as this is in response to your expressed desire to have a better friendship with her. Yes, he should have told you if he started seeing her alone in the beginning, but after months/years of the WS doing that very thing, there's definitely an element of "why should I, when you didn't" involved.

He is now giving you a heads up when she'll be around. Not hiding it. Or flaunting it. Yes, the plates thing was petty, but I'm sure all us BS's have this at some point. With good reason.

No disrespect, but now knowing my WS doesn't have my back, and has emotionally devastated me, I have no emotional support. I would love to have someone to lean on, and I find it very interesting how so many ppl immediately jump to the EA accusation. Esp WS.

Ok, I will try to make this brief.

9 years ago I noticed the father of my chldren spent long hours on the phone with his ex wife. I would wake at 3 in the morning and he would be on the phone with her. Then again on the phone at 7 am.

The excuse was the children.

Fast forward to now.

He has had an affair, brief but non the less an affair.

He also continued his long converstations with the ex.

Because of the affair I ave had to request both stop.

He says he will.

My mistake was to let the behavior of seeking attention outside of our relationship continue 9 years ago.

9 years ago I had the opportunity to demand respect for our relationship.

The price I am paying now is indescribable. I had the opportunity to demand accountability and I did not because I believed it was about the children.

It was about him. I could have saved myself and my children so much pain had I accepted in the beginning this behavior to be toxic to our relationship.

Please do not believe the lies.

Please demand accountability for the actions.

I'm going to stay away from commenting on if it's an EA.

But, you have been working on you and part of that, part of being healthy and balanced is boundaries.

And yours are being tested. You now have an opportunity to fall back on what you have learned and so far it seems you have. You have communicated openly, you have expressed your concern with his behaviour. You haven't hidden it, or bottled it up.

What you can't control is his choices. He has his agency, he is making his choices. Whether it's an EA or not it it's impacting the marriage and in a healthy situation he would choose to stop it for its impact on you.

Only you can choose how much you are willing to let your boundaries be pushed, and this is also part of letting go of the outcome, if you feel his behaviour is damaging to you and the marriage you have a right to ask it stop, if it doesn't you have a right to end the relationship. What you did in the past doesn't remove your rights in that sense, it absolutely 100% should influence and colour your thinking (I.e. he is hurting, he needs this friendship, before my affair I wouldn't have condoned it, but after my affair I accept it as part of healing) but it shouldn't allow for unhealthy boundaries (I.e. he is sharing the most intimate parts of his personality with someone else, he is not treating me with at least a minimal degree of respect, this is a life of misery but misery is what I must accept to stay married to him)

I don't know the intricacies of your marriage and don't know how you feel or what you should do, but a healthy response would be to understand and analyse your own boundaries and hold to them.