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I find it ironic that my WW began her A because of the ego boost/validation/attention from some dipshit blowing smoke up her ass by telling her how wonderful she was and how hot she looked. I can understand that it feels good to have someone find you attractive. I get that people want to feel desired, appreciated, respected, loved, etc.

But, the things she was looking for in the A are now the things she will never get from me. At least not fully. I can't tell my WW that she's a good woman and I'm lucky to have found her. I can't tell her I love her and respect her with all of my soul. I can't discuss, much less brag, about my marriage to my buddies. I can't look at photos and think I've got everything I always wanted from marriage.

These things she needs for her ego are things I can't give because I don't feel or believe them. I can respect her efforts to improve herself and make amends, she's made enormous strides in those areas too. I can appreciate certain things. I can be somewhat content with our lives now and I can enjoy our family as a whole. But the damage is pretty damn deep and I view her entirely differently now.

Sometimes I think it isn't fair to either of us to continue this M. She can't meet my needs - trust, security, respect. I will never fully trust or respect her again. I know I can't meet her need for words of affirmation and I will never adore her again.

And that sucks. I absolutely adored her pre-A. I knew she wasn't perfect, but I accepted her faults. I am far from perfect myself. It also sucks that we did have a pretty damn good marriage before all of this bullshit. I always felt like we were a team. There were bumps in the road, but it was minor stuff. I felt like we were raising a family and building someone for the future. I truly thought she would never be unfaithful. I thought she had character and integrity. I thought her family mattered to her. I thought I mattered to her. Now I see her in a completely different light.

Last Friday was our wedding anniversary. 28 years. I let it go without any acknowledgement. I could tell she wanted to say something, but she let it slide too. I brought it up over the weekend and she started sobbing. I saw all of the grief, guilt, remorse, regret, and pain come pouring out her for what seems like the millionth time. I think I've become numb towards her. I don't know what to think really. I often feel like an outlier here; I've handled the betrayal much differently than virtually everyone else at SI.

But does anyone else relate to how I feel?

Do you feel remorse for your affairs? If you do, can you not find it in you to empathize with her, at all? Not that you should be cool with her affair. But can you not find it in you to try to work on the marriage, together?

I always get the impression that you don't feel bad about the damage you caused her, with your two long term affairs.

Have you really acknowledged the damage YOU caused?

Maybe it's time to let the marriage go. Both of you deserve better.

My husband wasn't looking for love. He wanted NSA sex. He was looking for something different. We had a fucking amazing sex life. He had a wife who adored him. I never said no. My sex drive was higher than his. I was adventurous, and up for anything. Anything other than including another person.

So..now he has different. I've never been able to be vulnerable enough to do "anything " sexual with him since dday. I figure, he had that wife. And he tossed me aside for common trash. So now he has a wife who says no. A wife who has put a permanent "closed" sign on certain sexual acts.

Sometimes he jokes, and says stupid shit like.."before we were married you would..." And I think, well, we were married 8 years, and you decided you didn't want that wife. I will never be that person again. He misses her.

Consequences are a bitch.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:26 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

I could have written this post. I never cheated despite massive FOO trauma and a neglectful, angry husband.

I'm too old and set in my ways to leave. He fully knows what he lost and what he'll never again have.

I feel sorry for him.

I feel you Buck. I started a similar thread about being happy and married, but not "happily married".

https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/653283/happily-married/

If I wasn't at least content, I would be out. Are you at least content in your M? Is there any chance you will feel fulfilled with it in the future?

You have remained married on paper; you are not reconciled.

The real irony of your situation is that you successfully got back at your wife for cheating by engaging in revenge affairs, but as a consequence, you don't seem to like or be particularly attracted to the meek, empty shell that she has become. Furthermore, instead of being empowered by your revenge affairs, you seem more angry, miserable, and bitter than men who simply choose to divorce or men who make good faith efforts at reconciliation, whether or not they are successful.

From your posts, the impression that I get of your marriage preinfidelity is that you saw your wife as an extension of yourself, an appendage within your control and not her own person with her own agency. I also think it's likely you had very selfish and wayward tendencies that you were able to rein in because you feared losing your wife's adoration, the respect of others, and your own sense of moral superiority. But once your wife cheated, that was the license you needed to let yourself off the leash and completely indulge in all manner of self-gratifying behaviors to which you felt entitled.

In a truly bizarre way, it's like you and your wife became complete caricatures of yourselves... her by becoming pale shadow of her former self in order to regain your love and you by becoming cruel and spiteful to regain her respect. If only you were both willing to meet each other halfway and allow yourselves to be vulnerable --for better or for worse, just as you vowed--maybe you would be able to stop going through the motions and actually have a real marriage again.

If you're going to stay married, why not really try to be married? Neither one of you has pulled the plug yet, so there must be something keeping you together.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:45 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

I saw all of the grief, guilt, remorse, regret, and pain come pouring out her for what seems like the millionth time. I think I've become numb towards her. I don't know what to think really. I often feel like an outlier here; I've handled the betrayal much differently than virtually everyone else at SI.

I've said this several times, although it is just my opinion. Most cheating is done by the selfish or entitled partner, and most BS lean toward being the more codependent or needy partner thus struggle to draw boundaries or leave. BUT, maybe 10% of cheating (says me, not an actual stat) is done by the lonely, desperate, or lost spouse that feels like they are nothing next to their driven, domineering, take charge, and/or super successful spouse. These waywards do NOT want D, they are just almost without an identity. Their cheating is an act of depressed desperation. And they always regret it. Why?

Because here's the problem: those 10% of waywards who feel like nothing are married to competitive types who will not, cannot "lose" to some other guy. Absolutely not. They never lose, don't entertain losing. Their egos are huge. These BS immediately have revenge affairs, belittle and punish their waywards (who are commonly women), abuse their waywards, humiliate and violate their waywards, and rage rather than feel sadness. Yes, there is loss, but it produces an anger, not a sadness. After all, competitive types don't get sad. They don't even really get mad. They get even.

In my time at SI and on other infidelity forums, these marriages don't make it or turn extremely abusive. The BS cannot and will not get over it because their personality dictates they are then a loser, less than, second rate, a chump. And no way can they live with that. No way.

I honestly read the saddest, most heartbreaking example of this on another forum. The H immediately divorced his WW, but he never remarried. He travelled a lot for business and slept with her a few times a year long after they D, obviously still in love with her. But he would shut those feelings down and then leave again no matter her promises or chaste living. He would tell her, "Move on. I'll never be with you again." But his anger contradicted other behaviors where he held her lovingly and stroked her hair, often lost in thought as he lay next to her. There was nothing she could do. She pined for him for years, and neither had remarried, although he hurt her with stories of other women. Right before ravaging her with love and affection. He hated her and loved her passionately.

You, Buck, see the problem as her cheating, which of course it was. But NOW the problem is his ego, which won't let his heart have what it wants. She said that his ego and machismo were huge. Even if the R can work and maybe be better than ever, the loss of status cannot be allowed. Idk. Can a huge ego marry a non-existent ego and be happy forever? Not sure, but a huge ego can step down a little and allow a non-ego a little boost in life, and the two of them can learn to love again more in the middle. Well, I think so. I've seen it.

Not sure if you feel any connection to any of this, but I thought I'd put it out there. Your story is more uncommon, but it's not unheard of. Buck, do you want to be the winner or do you want to be happy in your M? I don't think for your personality that you will be able to be both.

P.S. What is the irony exactly? That you have a remorseful WW but don't want her? I'd give some thought to the dynamic that has always existed between you two that created this irony.

What is the irony exactly?

I think the irony Buck is describing is a WW who entered into an A because she was getting affirmation from the AP about what a wonderful person she was and how happy she made him (in the context of the A), presumably because she wasn't getting that sort of affirmation from her husband.

Now, though, the WW would like this sort of affirmation from Buck, but he doesn't feel those things and therefore can't give them. However, had there never been an A, he probably would have felt those things and given those affirmations.

In other words, by having an A to get "kibbles", a WW increase the likelihood of never getting those sort of kibbles in the marriage after Dday.

In other words, by having an A to get "kibbles", a WW increase the likelihood of never getting those sort of kibbles in the marriage after Dday.

So then you D, right?

Buck, I definitely relate to what you are feeling. OIN also has my number to a certain extent.

My EX’s AP was a predator who could sense how lost and fearful she was about becoming irrelevant. I had an amazing job, my girls had just left the nest, and as OIN described she was lost. He blew massive amount of smoke. Not just about looks, but also how she had great talents. BTW these are things I also told her, but coming from me didn’t have the same weight.

The things that she was getting from both him and me, blew up in her face (although he had stopped at that point and was just using her as a sperm deposititory.) like OIN said, I wasn’t used to losing, or ever happy about it. I also had a capacity for loyalty to a fault, but if a person screwed me over, I didn’t react well. That person was more than dead to me.

So the things she was searching for with her affair which was validation that she mattered went about a hundred miles backward. I was the person that a day before d day was telling her that she was amazing, and the day after telling her that she was the lowest form of life and I was going to destroy her in the eyes of her children (which I never did) She truly became the person that prior to the affair she feared she was, She became a stepford wife. Terrified every day that I would drop the other shoe and leave her. This is really the saddest part. I can’t over emphasize how much she had going for her prior to the affair. Great wife, mother, friend to everyone, and beautiful to boot. Now she drinks too much, is sad all the time, 20 pounds overweight, and won’t reach out to any of her friends who mostly have given up. What she feared she was but wasn’t, is what she became

Sex was the same thing. What she truly loved with me which was foreplay playfulness, and holding afterward. What she hated with him was just being used for a half hour or so and then tossed aside so he could get home to his family. What she hated with him, is what she then got with me. She would come to my room, I would use a condom even after enough time had passed that we were clear, and when I finished woukd have her leave. This lasted almost a year

Eventually I stopped being cruel, but I was never loving again. I truly did love her. I have said if she needed a kidney I woukd be at the hospital in a minute, but when she really needed me to tell her I loved and forgave her, I just could never do that.

My guess is you will get to the point I got to. It’s no way for a marrige to be. I was cordial, but who wants a cordial spouse or lover. She would have continued this way until we died, but I just couldn’t. I hated myself for how I treated her. My guess, by just posting this you at last have regrets about your treatment.

Sometimes the most compassionate thing in this circumstance is to just let them go

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 4:49 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

So then you D, right?

Correct. Which is probably the fundamental reason a great deal of marriages broken by infidelity end up in D.

Buck,

If I remember right, didn’t your WW bring her AP around your kids, after he beat the crap out of his wife, in front of his kid?

Is that one of the reasons you have stayed with her? To protect your kids from the men she would bring into their lives?

Ramius, if Buck wanted to stay married to protect his kids from other men his wife would bring into their lives after divorce, then going on a 6-year binge of flagrant infidelity himself was a pretty absurd way to go about it.

What she feared she was but wasn’t, is what she became

Maybe because that's who she really was even when you couldn't see it? In other words maybe she just physically manifested who she really is when she didn't have you provisioning and offering her constant support.

As my tagline says I believe the intense pressure of carrying out adultery reveals the true person, the core character.

We spend a lot of time in our teens and twenties assembling a “persona” which typically begins to fall apart in our 40s and 50s. It is like we donned a costume and it turns shabby and thin after a few decades.

For some this process is liberating and they can be more authentic. For others this process is terrifying.

Wow, there's a lot to address here.

Yes, I did cheat. I did let her know what I was going to do beforehand. I did not take her agency or lie to her on the first affair and I made damn sure she knew what, who, and when. The AP knew what was going on and there was no deception or hurt feelings. That lasted 1.5 years.

The second A I kept from my WW. I lied to her. I didn't realize it at the time, but I led the AP on and I ended up hurting her very deeply. I hurt myself too. This lasted 5 years total, the last 6mo were long distance. AP ended things when I wouldn't move across the country to be with her. I feel extreme remorse for what I did to the AP. I do not feel any remorse towards my WW.

BFTG nailed the irony aspect I was trying to convey. My WW ended the A on her own. AP outed her. She did bring the AP around our children after he beat his wife pretty badly. She claims she didn't know about the DV. Her A seems odd to me. It wasn't terribly sexual, they had sex 10 times and she blew him twice. All of the encounters were pretty much quickies in his truck. This happened in parking lots, parks, etc. This went on for 6-7mo. She never had an orgasm, no anal, etc. - polygraph confirmed. It sounds like most of the A was him telling her how wonderful she was and her doling out sex when he would pull away to keep the compliments coming. They mostly kissed. Our sex life never changed during the A and that disgusts me to this day.

Also, our pre A marriage was great. No real issues - no huge fights, no abuse, great sex, all the good stuff. I felt like we were a team and I considered her my equal. We used to talk about how our strengths and weaknesses offset one another and together we made a damn good balanced team. That was the vibe. I adored her and considered myself lucky to have her.

She really doesn't know why she cheated. It boils down to she liked the attention and validation, and she didn't think I would find out. She never intended to leave me and told AP that before starting, and several times during, the A. She told herself I would be jealous and pursue her if I did find out. I think she was a bit overshadowed like OIN said in her post. My career was taking off, I had been promoted and I was being groomed for advancement. She struggled in college and didn't graduate. I graduated with honors (STEM) while working a full time job and being married with an infant. She did say she felt smarter than AP and felt she was in total control of the situation. She didn't realize the manipulation or how she was being used until after it ended.

And bluerthanblue, I don't think you understand the dynamic post A. She was desperate to keep me. She threw sex at me constantly. And the stepford wife thing pretty much sums up how she acted. She got too comfortable though and started to mention how AP was a good guy and some other stupid shit. I saw an attorney and had D papers drafted up including the DV case number, evidence photos of AP's wife's face, phone records and suponeas to coworkers, AP, and OBS to testify in the custody hearing. She fucked herself when it came to child custody. I did stay to protect the children from any idiots she would bring around them if she did end up with some sort of visitation. I didn't trust her judgement. She was, and is, terrified of divorce.

WWTL, your situation sounds like mine is now. I could barely keep my rage under control for years. I fumed around her. I punished her for years. I humiliated her and made sure she felt used. No gifts, no cards, no I love yous, no compliments, nothing from me. When we have sex, there are acts I will no longer do, and haven't since d day, and I no longer kiss her. I just fuck her now, and I no longer give a shit if she gets off or not. It's horrible. The cordial comment hits home for me too. We get along fine, but it just feels "off". I've lost attraction to her, I don't value her opinion or judgement and I never seek her input. I no longer consult her if I'm going to make a major purchase. I do whatever I want whenever I want and she can fit her schedule around me. It's crazy what we lost. I try to discuss D with her rationally, the nest is now empty, but she freaks out and asks what more she can do. I'm at a loss. It sucks too. We own a historic home in a trendy part of a large city that we bought a few years ago. The area has gone crazy and it's tripled in value. We own some acreage in the country. There is enough 401k, investment and other money to ensure a damn nice retirement. I'm 51 and I could realistically retire soon. We now have two grandchildren, the youngest is just now 2mo old and the oldest is almost 3. They spend quite a bit of time with us and it sucks to think about losing some of that too. I'm tired of punishing her and I don't say hurtful shit anymore or try to push her buttons. I just can't seem to bring back those "in love" feelings or desire for her. I'm truly at a loss. I feel guilt about how she reacts now. It sucks to stay and it sucks to leave. WWTL, how did your children handle your divorce? How is your relationship with them now?

I'm going to add your wife to my prayer list. Her situation is one of the saddest I've ever seen, and if it's irony you're looking for, consider the irony of a remorseful WS, forever atoning for her transgressions against a remorseless cheater. Ugh.

Umm...it sounds like you only view your wife in the realm of how she added to YOUR life.

which is selfish and self-serving.

I am going to join CT and pray for your wife.

You have no remorse and no care for her outside of what she meant to you and now that she doesn't fit that ideal...you are happy to punish her for as long as she is willing to take it.

You protected your children from other men..yet exposed them to the prolonged hurt, pain and desperation of the BOTH of the parents.

Did you read the post? I’ve said this over and over here. I told her I wasn’t going to be faithful to her going forward and she was free to leave if she had a problem with that. How is that remotely comparable with what she did? Your gender bias is causing you to make some faulty equivalencies.

And if you two fine Cristian ladies need somebody to pray for, I suggest the OBS and her 8yo daughter. The girl witnessed AP (her father) kick down a door and shove her mother’s face through drywall, and punch/kick her repeatedly because my WW intercepted an answering machine message to me saying she thought there was something going on between AP and WW. My WW told AP to “get his wife under control” which prompted his actions. Oh, she still fucked that gem a few times after that incident and brought that POS around our kids.

The truth is I’m fucking exhausted from this ordeal. I’m tired of punishing her and I’ve stopped treating her like shit. I am cordial to her now. There is just a lot lacking from our relationship now. I’m tired of feeling this way. I don’t know how to fix it either.

she hated with him, is what she then got with me

Man, WWTL, did your post hit home. I just quoted one line, but, yes, this resonates so deeply that it hurts.

I'm not going to ever put myself out there as a perfect husband, I'm far from it. But I tried, hard, to make a good life for us. I doted on her, I dealt with the lack of sex/lack of excitement during sex, I even gave up some of my personal dreams to pursue hers instead, and not little things, really big things.

And she would have told you, before the A, that I was too interested in sex and not enough in the emotions. Well, no, I wasn't; we had a sexual problem that she wasn't willing to talk about and I wanted to fix. It's obvious now that what we were living before was a mess sexually. Anyway, she was always upset that I was "too focused" on that, and, in the A, what did she get?

You guessed it, again, right out of your story, a "relationship" that was as transactional as it possibly could be absent the actual exchange of cash. Sadly, as I came to learn after the A, it's really the standard trade; words for sex. What she thought I was, the AP actually was (only interested in her for sex).

It's so far beyond stupid I really struggle to even describe it. Affairs are not for love anymore than professional sex workers are for love. They are for sex and words. But you better really like the words, because there's no meaning behind them; it's like listening to a song about love, might sound great to your ear, but it has nothing to do with how the artist feels about YOU, it just sounds good. The idea of throwing your marriage into a spiral for that is just.. Well, unthinkable to me.

BTW these are things I also told her, but coming from me didn’t have the same weight.

One of the saddest realizations I've had is that is basically a structural issue. I can't compete with it, much like it's impossible for my wife to compete with the thrill of sex with someone new for me. You can't, because you're not someone else. Just like I can't, because I'm not someone else. That's a really hard thing to internalize and deal with, at least for me it is.

There's no gender bias. I'd ask the same questions if you were a woman.

You say you told her you wouldn't be faithful, so why haven't you told her everything you've done? Sure sounds like cheating to me... and blame-shifting to the victim because you already told her or whatever, however long ago that was.

If you really think that what you've done is okay, why not tell her TODAY the entire extent of your infidelity???