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One thing I distilled from all my conversations with WW: it is always about them. It’s the common thread that winds through every conversation. Unrepentant waywards just haven’t taken responsibility so that they can be of any use in a healing and therapeutic conversation.

The techniques are all well known, minimizing, attacking, changing the topic, lies, gas lighting, whatever. Its all the same thing: waywards are interested in their own self image and their own outcomes. I know it’s difficult to put aside self, but if one can’t have empathy and listen to a betrayed and respond in a manner meant to honestly inform the betrayed on whatever the topic, then its all a waste of time.

So true Apparition. Are you still in R as your sig states? If so, why?

One thing I distilled from all my conversations with WW: it is always about them. It’s the common thread that winds through every conversation. Unrepentant waywards just haven’t taken responsibility so that they can be of any use in a healing and therapeutic conversation.

Sounds like your mind is beginning to calm down and you are thinking more clearly.

Unrepentant waywards just haven’t taken responsibility

I have been divorced for over eight years from my XWW and she is still the same person she was at the height of her despicable behavior all those years ago.

She still has to view me with the same made-up contempt that she cast upon me - the instant after she got caught.

She still clings to blaming me, the marriage, and anything else that is not her.

She traumatized our children, destroyed their foundation, and to this day has never apologized to them or even acknowledged, in the slightest, that what she did hurt them profoundly.

My family adored her and always praised her, but the instant she got caught she simply dropped them out of her life like they never existed.

No apology, no explanation, no goodbye, no nothing - she simply ran away.

All this and worse behavior for no other reason than SHE doesn’t want to ever feel bad, have to face any consequences of her behavior, or face any reminders that she is a complete failure as a human being.

It’s always about her

She will NEVER get any better about this.

She is terminally selfish and a coward.

Any sort of reconciliation with someone like this is completely and utterly futile.

There is simply no mechanism within them to have any sort of awareness about it.

Any attempt to make them aware will only be viewed as an attack on them.

Apparition

One thing I distilled from all my conversations with WW: it is always about them. It’s the common thread that winds through every conversation. Unrepentant waywards just haven’t taken responsibility so that they can be of any use in a healing and therapeutic conversation.

I think that's common in WW. Mine exhibited this too. She was the victim and acted like it, if I dared be upset at her behavior.

The techniques are all well known, minimizing, attacking, changing the topic, lies, gas lighting, whatever. Its all the same thing: waywards are interested in their own self image and their own outcomes. I know it’s difficult to put aside self, but if one can’t have empathy and listen to a betrayed and respond in a manner meant to honestly inform the betrayed on whatever the topic, then its all a waste of time.

I gotta be honest, if WW's were able to have empathy and listen to the betrayed I don't think they'd be waywards. My ex had been cheated on, she knew the pain (granted it was a highschool relationship, but still) and she still engaged in an affair. She just didn't care.

To be able to cheat on your partner indicates, at least on some level, that you do not care about them. You are so entirely focused on yourself that nothing else matters.

Any attempt to make them aware will only be viewed as an attack on them.

or twisted into you are trying to gaslight them. Now isn't that ironic .

My ex was cheated on in her first marriage so she understands the pain. She just chooses to deny she did anything wrong and continues to demonize and blame me for everything. Now I look back and see how she used my love and empathy for her to control me with that pain (e.g "Do you really need to go out with your friends? You know how that makes me feel.") .

My exGF started pulling stuff like that as well, so after a failed attempt to get her to understand I pulled the plug.

So true Apparition. Are you still in R as your sig states? If so, why?

gr8ful,

Hadn't changed my status, but I should. I'm in separation limbo right now. I spend no energy on reconciliation right now. My WW is behaving in a somewhat remorseful manner, but I can't find it within myself to get invested in her efforts. Too little too late. Maybe contrived since her way of life is now threatened, so it's not empathy, it's just an act of self interest.

The limbo is self imposed and I'm comfortable right now since my life is 99% oriented toward personal activities.

Right now I'm doing a lot of reflecting trying to take a wider view and not be mired in the details or in her mercurial words and positions she takes.

In my case, along with some of the noted characteristics, it feels like there's an undertone of hedging her bet on us not working out which leads to an exit strategy from her of:

· Triangulation

· Less/declining effort due to said resignation... which leads to a perpetuation of the unsafe habits that lead us to where we are now. This leads to consequences. Which leads to empty, grand gestures and promises on her behalf when the gravity begins to sink in.

· Rinse, repeat.

It's the most soul crushing dance to be a part of. But I'm not just complaining without taking action. I've grown a lot in the last 30 months and will continue to grow and improve. To set healthy boundaries and learn from my mistakes of trusting too much. It's so difficult to wrap my mind around how someone can say "I love to" to someone while simultaneously being totally cool with treating them with contempt. Unfortunately, my FOO issues have made me prone to being comfortable with manipulation, seeing others with an altruistic filter no matter their track record and feeling I can somehow overcome/fix a toxic relationship by offsetting the imbalance. These are things it took me a lot of time to identify and I'm now accounting for these conditions.

keptmyword- man, that is exactly how I feel about my exWW. I would say that I'm a pretty good dude, and even after all of this, I've just softened up and get along for the sake of the kids and doing what's right for them.

Make no mistake, you cannot let your guard down with these WWs. Its always about them, and they never are accountable. Im not sure what kind of lies she's told my kids about her affair, but I'm certain it paints her in a much prettier light than the truth.

The thing with these WWs is that I truly believe misery follows them. They can blame us all they want, blame the marriage, and everything else but them, but the only problem is the inner turmoil one must face on the daily absolving oneself of the level of sin not only against their husbands, but also to their young children, friends and family.

Imagine the fight and mental gymnastics they go through daily. Imposture syndrome if they're self aware, otherwise, you're just dealing with a crazy.

I see my ex, see her text and response to some of my basic questions about the kids, and it always oozes with poor whittle oh me. Like she has to stand up against big bad wolf who took care of her, her family all the while was a good husband, provider and great father. Her almost constant defensiveness tells me that even though its always about poor little her, her vision of her true self is probably a lot less rosy than the puffing her chest out that she tries to portray.

I see my ex, see her text and response to some of my basic questions about the kids, and it always oozes with poor whittle oh me. Like she has to stand up against big bad wolf who took care of her, her family all the while was a good husband, provider and great father. Her almost constant defensiveness tells me that even though its always about poor little her, her vision of her true self is probably a lot less rosy than the puffing her chest out that she tries to portray.

This came up in another thread. I believe that most waywards have been good people, many are interesting, fun, loving, and even have ethics. The issue is they made very poor choices, they behaved unethically, and it seems most of them avoid fully owning those poor ethical choices. And THAT turn them into a truly unrepentant and bad person, the very self image they don't want.

Failure to focus on the choices leaves them stuck on stupid.

My advise to waywards would be to completely own their mistake, own that the choices were made selfishly, broke promises, and were unethical. If they would own it, then they could have empathy for the damage their choices made, they could present themselves as safe partners who understand the poor choices they made and can express and act on commitments for better ethics.

But what commonly happens is they stay just like your ex, they reject complete ownership and so can't show genuine empathy, can't present as safe partners, and can't answer questions without employing self defense. If you own your poor choices, you don't have to defend the choices, because you're not defending yourself as you are now (with ethics properly inline with the commitments your making to your partner).

It's such a trap waywards make for themselves, they won't own their mistakes and so find themselves having to make themselves the victim and their spouse the victimizer. No M, no R, no opportunity to improve themselves. A pity really.

It's such a trap waywards make for themselves, they won't own their mistakes and so find themselves having to make themselves the victim and their spouse the victimizer. No M, no R, no opportunity to improve themselves. A pity really.

Yup, there is no chance at true R, if they aren't willing to own up... Gaslighting, lying and blameshifting is what causes many in R, or want to attempt R to fail. Often times, it these things done after the A, and after DDay that creates the most damage and makes R untenable.

Look at it this way, even though we're treading off topic here, their behavior is no different than a felonious criminal whose told one too many lies, and has to continue the charades b/c once you slip up with the truth, the whole story falls apart. And there in lies what is so fascinating and scary about human psychology, its so hard for us to paint ourselves as anything but the hero, and good. This is where most of the blameshifting comes in. You didn't give me enough attention, you didnt love me enough, you worked too much.....That is why R is so hard, and so few do it successfully.

When a WW locks herself into this kind of thinking and mindset, BHs are much better off walking away. Dealing with an unrepenting WW means you'll never live a happy life, bc your WW will never be happy either. She has to fully go 180 on herself, do the work, see herself in the mirror for who she really is, and not many people are willing to do just that. Because when the devil is looking back at you, no one wants to accept that truth.

[This message edited by HalfTime2017 at 2:41 PM, July 29th (Thursday)]

Everything Keptmyword said. I would add that my XWW talked shit about every one of my family members. Like they were all in on this conspiracy theory. Her Step Dad was against her too. The whole world

My ex was cheated on in her first marriage so she understands the pain. She just chooses to deny she did anything wrong and continues to demonize and blame me for everything.

Heartfullofholes,

Same with mine.

She actually said to me early on, “I would never (with emphasis on never) do that because I’ve had it done to me.”

Again, it’s always about them.

She knows the giant hypocrisy that she is but uses her blame shifting to sell herself the fantasy that she was compelled to do it because she was in some horrible marriage to a horrible person.

Via zero conscience, she has the ability to give herself an easy out of any abhorrent behavior that hurts people by blaming the very people she hurt.

It’s despicable behavior on top of despicable behavior - but, in her morally bereft mind, it’s the path of least resistance that keeps her from facing the person she really doesn’t like the most - herself.

They can blame us all they want, blame the marriage, and everything else but them, but the only problem is the inner turmoil one must face on the daily absolving oneself of the level of sin not only against their husbands, but also to their young children, friends and family.

HalfTime2017,

I think my XWW has the ability to completely shed ANY guilt or inner turmoil as long as she has someone to blame.

As long as she has her scapegoat then that person is to blame and that is that.

We still have one minor child so I have to communicate with her as well.

I communicate 99.9% via text and strictly about the kids.

I wish there was a better relationship between us for the sake of the children but she simply will NEVER deviate from having to see me as some sort of “source” of her shitty behavior and decisions.

To know that there are people who think and live this way is kind of depressing but, the fact is, there are many out there.

The fact that I ended up with one of these people as the mother of my children really gets to me sometimes.

Keptmyword, I'm sure in her mind you are also the one who is responsible for the bad relationship post D. My ex will tell anyone who will listen it's all my fault. She sees boundaries as personal attacks against her right to do whatever she wants.

I know I have mentioned this before, but it certainly deserves repeating here. I was a few months into my divorce and was having dinner with my mother when out of the blue she said "I'm sorry!" This was not in the context of dealing with the divorce so I was confused. After a few questions it turned out my ex had been bad mouthing me for years to my mother and even though her lies did not align with who I was in the past or what she had observed when we were together she had accepted much of what my ex had told her. Now if your ex can convince your own mother you're a horrible person that's some world class lying!

I know this same behavior has been targeted at our daughters and that it has impacted my relationship with them. I just hope eventually they can see the truth like my mother has. They have also been trained that me saying anything, even as simple as "There are two sides" is putting them in the middle. I am certainly not allowed to correct them when they start parroting her lies. I think my oldest has started to see the asymmetry, but this has been a slow painful process.

I know this same behavior has been targeted at our daughters and that it has impacted my relationship with them. I just hope eventually they can see the truth like my mother has

Maybe when you feel that they would be receptive to it you can have their grandmother share her experience with them.

I know I have mentioned this before, but it certainly deserves repeating here. I was a few months into my divorce and was having dinner with my mother when out of the blue she said "I'm sorry!" This was not in the context of dealing with the divorce so I was confused. After a few questions it turned out my ex had been bad mouthing me for years to my mother and even though her lies did not align with who I was in the past or what she had observed when we were together she had accepted much of what my ex had told her. Now if your ex can convince your own mother you're a horrible person that's some world class lying!

I think vilifying the spouse while having an affair and post affair is essential to a wayward's self image. It's not a surprise to me at all that a wayward would poison the pot around the family and with friends. I can just imagine your mom's guilt and shame that your WW created with her lies. I use to think I didn't understand waywards, but now I think I do understand the unrepentant wayward. It's always about them.

I'm not having much in the way of substantive conversations with my WW now, but what conversations I have certainly show me that she is blaming me. She says she doesn't blame me or our M, but then she explains that I don't have empathy for her, that I'm hateful, and that I'm mean. So I look at my behavior, I ask her questions calmly, without anger, and I don't insult or put her down. I always refer to her actions and not her as a person. Yet this standard is still not good enough to qualify as not mean and hateful. This tells me that any questions that make her feel bad is a form of abuse. And so, no conversation is actually acceptable.

Wayward 101: Do and say anything and everything to force the betrayed spouse to rug sweep. They think this is what's best for their own healing. Maybe they are right and it is best for them.

I recognize now after two and a half decades that my WW is incapable of true empathy and always will be. She knows right from wrong, but lacks the ability to apply that knowledge. I have come to learn that most waywards share this trait.

I know this same behavior has been targeted at our daughters and that it has impacted my relationship with them. I just hope eventually they can see the truth like my mother has

Maybe when you feel that they would be receptive to it you can have their grandmother share her experience with them.

Tried that. The response was "Well she's your mom of course she'll take your side." All kinds of dysfunction in that response. My mother like I try not to take sides.

Apparition, what are you doing now? R does not sound like a plausible solution for you when your WW is trying to get you to rugsweep.

Any and everytime you want to hold her actions (again, not her, but really should be both) accountable, you get the blameshift. My ex did some of the same things, and she even went as far as to tell me (and I'm sure anyone else who will listent) that she was afraid/scared of me, even though I never laid as much as a finger on her during our 17 yrs together. IN fact, she hit me once during our earlier years while dating, and I set her straight on that to never ever touch me again.

But she use this line with me that made it seem like I was about her hurt her, or have had physically hurt her before. And of course being a female, that can provoke powerful emotions from all the 3rd parties to her side and favor. I called bullshit, and you should tool.

I truly think you're spinning your wheels with your ex. Look around, many a men have made it through to the other side and gain something better. Dont stay dealing with that nonsense for much longer bud. You will grow to regret that wasted time, which you cannot buy more of.