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Sorry for the long post, this is my first time posting. I think I know the answer to my own question, but I really want other perspectives on both sides of this. The current situation - it has been over 4 years since DD and while my BH consistently says he wants to R, he does nothing to actually further that. A brief backstory -I’m a WW. Our DD was a little over 4 years ago. I didn’t handle things well initially at all. I TT’d, I was defensive and generally wasn’t in touch with the mental issues I had, and focused only on his. This obviously made things worse. On top of that, my A was with someone we both interacted with and it blew up that world of things as well. We initially went to MC but it was not the right person snd it was too soon for us to work on the things she was suggesting. We then both started IC and I eventually started going to BH’s counselor so he had both of our perspectives. That and he’s very well respected and sought after. A couple years ago BH stopped therapy altogether and I’ve continued. BH says that while he wants the family because it’s everything he worked for and thinks it’s best for the kids, he can’t get past what happened, he can’t see me the same way and has been fixated on revenge plans on the AP and others connected to him for several years. Living day to day like this has been extremely difficult. He makes almost no eye contact with me, he almost never initiates a conversation and there is no intimacy at all. At my IC recommendation, I’ve been sleeping in another room for a year or so now. This was to create a boundary for me since it was so uncomfortable going into bed each night. The pattern is that I try to do my best at being the best wife I can be to show consistency over time (how my IC says you build trust back), I go with the flow with the lack of connection and focus on the kids, but over time my loneliness and frustration builds and I confront him on the lack of progress or effort. He will always respond by going back to the A and how I never cared then, etc. He’s been stuck in that place and I’m helpless to do anything to change him. I get more upset when he does have moments of being emotional or vulnerable and he does want intimacy, it’s very one sided and afterwards it is back to the coldness which makes me feel used and upset. We recently made promises to each other to help build trust back on both sides (I forgot to mention he’s a mad hatter and he had revenge sex with a distant mutual friend of ours several months after DD). I forgave that right away because he confessed it right away and he seemed to be in a place afterward where he was ready to heal snd work towards R, but it didn’t last. He’s broken those promises we made to each other (involving internet usage) snd got very nasty when confronted about it. He brings up how bad I made him feel, how I probably do things too and that it’s just not going to work out for us. He often says how unfair it is that this decision is all on his shoulders and he’s been treated bad his whole life and has nothing to give. I always acknowledge how I caused this pain but reiterate that I love him and want to R more than anything. He doubts my authenticity because he seems to still think the AP was some true love of mine. How could I want my H when I did that to him. This thought pattern justifies to him his treating me as if I’m not even there.

When I start making plans to separate he backtracks and says he’ll start joining me in counseling but the lack of connection and broken promises continues. I truly do want R but I only want it if it’s authentic. It’s hard for me to feel like he’s ever going to love me again the way I want and need. I’m so confused day to day because he’ll talk to me about our house construction as if I’m his partner and always wants my input on his revenge plans when he’s not lying to me about what he’s doing, but then we have zero other connections. He never makes eye contact with me and he seems quite content that i sleep in the other room. He acts as if he can live like this forever or until the kids are out of the house, and Ive been trying to be patient and endure for the kids sake and to give him time to heal, but it just isn’t happening and I feel like I want to give up. I’m scared of wasting more years of my life just for him to realize he can’t forgive me and then move on himself. I get so confused since I’m the WW I feel so much guilt but I also feel it’s more damaging staying together at this point. He just won’t budge.

I’ve read other BH’s say that they’re wives tried everything for years and it still ended in divorce. I feel so awkward in my own home - everything in it as I look around seems like it won’t be mine soon so I find it impossible to just exist like this. I’ve agreed I will be the one to leave when it comes to that. Prior to the A our issues were lack of connection and he had resentment towards me after our second child was born. He was happy with just 1 child and resented the times I was at work and he had to care for the kids because he felt I was putting my career over the kids. He shut me out and would mostly ignore me or show on his face how angry he was at me. I was confused as I didn’t understand at the time why he was so unhappy with me. I know this is all over the place so any comments or insight are appreciated. I know I’ve left a lot of detail out.

Based on what you've written, you should just divorce him.

He is unable to escape his pain and make a decision, instead, allowing himself to drift in limbo. You don't seem understand the depths of pain your betrayal caused him and your marriage. I wouldn't want you to waste any more of your time on him.

So be the strong one in this and just end it. Your children deserve better than this.

OminousMan - but I want to understand the depths of his pain because maybe that could help him find his way. Maybe his belief that I don’t understand is one of the things keeping him stuck? Our therapist had me write a detailed letter that was intended to show him exactly that. I read it out loud to him in therapy - we were then supposed to dissect it line by line in therapy but he stopped participating. I just want to do everything possible.

BrokenAsh,

It may be the case that you have broken him. It sounds like it. Your presence does not seem to be helping him. It is enabling him to continue to wallow in his pain. He says he wants the best for his kids, but how is it in their best interests to have a father who sits around planning revenge against those who have wronged him? Who treats their mother with disgust and contempt? After 4 years? What do you think they learn from that?

As for understanding, re-read your post and ask yourself this:

"How can I complain about wasting years of my life in R if he doesn't forgive me when I stole his entire marriage from him, perhaps even the remainder of his life?"

"How can I ask him to love me the way I need and want when he will never feel the same way about me that he did prior to my affair? When he will never be able to feel the love from me that he wants and needs because of my actions?"

"How can I demand that he open up and become intimate with me despite knowing that it may be unbearably painful for him to do so?"

Reflect on that.

He's become addicted to his own pain. In fact, his treatment of you may be his way of trying to re-establish a connection with you in a really messed up way. It could be that he, on some level, believes that he can prove that you love him the most because you are willing to stay with him through all this. It doesn't matter; you have children.

Some BS never recover. Your husband may be one of them. That is the reality of infidelity. He needs to get over it for the sake of his children. You can only throw a pity party for yourself for so long.

Do not allow your guilt to overshadow your obligation to provide a healthy environment for your children. You may have failed your family with your affair but do not fail them again by forcing them to live under these circumstances.

My prayers are with you and your family.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 7:34 PM, Thursday, September 2nd]

A few thoughts:

#1) If you want perspectives from other waywards, then the Wayward forum is probably a better bet. Or the General forum.

#2) As a BS, the pain is the worst I've experienced in my life. It is both mental and physical and cuts deeper than anything I've suffered before. I think it is really, really admirable that you want to try to experience the pain yourself, but of course you never can.

#3) Have you considered a physical separation? You could have a relationship boundary where you move out, and only return when he makes up his mind and commits to the marriage. Of course it could backfire on you and that's something you'll have to be prepared for, but it is a step to take, and something to try.

#4) I have some rather obvious insight, that for him, the A is a deal breaker. He might want to R but his body won't let him. The pain and hurt is so ingrained at this point that he's stuck.

#5) I have some experience with trying to stay married to a defiant, uncooperative spouse. It has not worked for me. There is nothing I could say, nothing I could do, no reasoning, no explaining, nothing. I am pursuing D as my only way forward. I tried very, very hard for 10 months.

#6) You'll hear a lot on this board that it often takes pain for someone to change. Pain is God's megaphone. The other thing you'll hear that sometimes you need to be willing to lose your marriage, in order to save it.

#7) Your a BS too, and you have my sympathy for that. You didn't deserve to be the victim of a revenge affair, and I'm really sorry that happened to you. I know exactly what it feels like to want to lash out and get revenge so I can understand it. However, it doesn't make it right and you didn't deserve it. Nobody does.

#8) Generally I'm terribly sorry for your troubles. It is a horrible, horrible way to live and I'm so sorry for it.

Maybe his belief that I don’t understand is one of the things keeping him stuck?

BrokenAsh, I'll PM you the idea that will help you to answer this question.

OminousMan - thank you. When I reflect on those things it does help me see things from his point of view. And if my staying helps him in some way I feel like I owe it to him to do that. But his daily actions are painful to me too and that’s where I break.

HowCouldSheDoThat - thank you too. I have often thought about a physical separation as it is something our mutual therapist often suggests. He calls it a healing separation and it would have boundaries like you described. Honestly I feel like it is much needed for me and him, but my hesitation comes because of the kids. I so don’t want to rock their world in such a huge way. I know that sounds too little late, and it is, but I don’t want to cause any more damage to anyone. I think that’s where we’re headed though. Our therapist seems to think it could even help my BH, since he’s unable to find his way out of this.

Thank you also for acknowledging the revenge sex. It’s something I’ve never been able to discuss much. I even had to see this woman a year after it happened and hugged her and pretended I didn’t know.

Thank you for all of your insight. Am I allowed to copy/paste into another forum like you suggested?

Unfortunately your BS sounds like I felt after the initial anger subsided after a year. The feeling of WTF happened to my life can be overwhelming. By year 4 I was pretty much like your BS except I choose not to talk about the whole thing, even though she still wanted to. We kind of just existed. The lack of intimacy is what I really remember. We had sex, but unlike pre affair it was not intimate. No holding after, almost no foreplay, no dressing up with candles and such, even though she wanted to.

Kind of the same with eye contact. We talked, watched tv together, still went on vacations, but I rarely touched her, and didn't look at her much. We were just floating through. After a 6 month in house separation we did sleep in the same bed, although I ended up getting a king to replace the queen bed after a year or two so we rarely even touched. I would try to move back into the bedroom. If it is your discomfort about sleeping together, you need to live with it. He probably feels like you don't want him if you are unwilling to be uncomfortable. Im sure he isn't helping with that, but that is just a ramification for your affair. Even though he doesn't seem to care, my guess is he does. The watchword here is look at the actions and not the words, and the actions of sleeping away from him is sending him a message.

There is a good chance that either one of you will pull the plug. The five year point seems to be kind of a reoccurring theme here, and that is when I finally bailed. Is the OM still a presence in your life or his? Was it a good friend? In that case he is dealing with two betrayals. Was it going on a long time or ever in your house? These are all things that exacerbate just the sex. When he talks about revenge how do you handle that? It is tricky as you don't want him ending up in jail, but if you discourage too much he is hearing that the OM is still more important to you.

Bottom line is sometimes things just don't work out. For me, as much as my Ex wanted it to work, what she did killed how I saw her which was damaged goods, and I treated her like such which made me feel like crap as on the deeper level I still loved her.

You probably have a year to fix this, or he may just be waiting for the kids to leave which is another benchmark.

On a technical note. I would keep the discussion here. Both WS and BS can post, and it is better to keep things on one thread.

I feel for you. Sometimes the affair is just a marriage killer. Do you really know why you did it?

Four years is a long time to be stuck in this limbo.

I am really bothered by some of the responses to you in this thread. From what you've written, it sounds to me like you're doing the work and he's given up. You deserve to be treated with respect, and your H, if he wants to R, needs to get to work on his stuff as well. He doesn't get a free pass because he was the initial victim. Especially since he's a mad hatter.

When I start making plans to separate he backtracks and says he’ll start joining me in counseling but the lack of connection and broken promises continues.

I think I'd set a boundary with him: "By [pick a date] if things haven't improved substantially, I'm going to file for separation. I don't want to live like this anymore." He'll either get to work or he won't, and you'll have your answer.

WaitedWayTooLong: your story sounds identical to ours in the way that we exist. To answer some of your questions - OM is not in either of our lives anymore. He was my boss at the time and was terminated after the A was discovered.

The actual A did not last long (few months total) but the lead up to it was longer. There were times when my BH could see it coming based on texts he saw and warned me that things could go wrong if I didn’t put up some boundaries. I was initially good at those boundaries and thought I was able to navigate the situation. It never occurred in our home.

When revenge comes up I usually try to offer my honest perspective which is that he is targeting the wrong people. This usually annoys him so lately I just try to stay out of those conversations altogether. As long as he is fixated on revenge he cannot focus on any attempts to heal. It seems to be what keeps him going.

As for why I did it, I can best describe it by how I was feeling at the time. My BH and I were going through a time when he was depressed snd angry at me. I did not understand why and he would not explain much. He has had depressive episodes several times during our marriage and I had always done everything I could to help him. I would get up in the middle of the night with him when he was upset and stressed about work, I became a light sleeper anticipating noises that I knew would wake him up and upset him, I went to battle with my family when he felt he was being mistreated even though deep down I didn’t agree with the way he interpreted things. I always tried to make him know he was my priority. I knew that based on his own childhood issues he often felt personally slighted at things most of us would shrug off. In the time leading up to the A, I was struggling. I had been promoted to a role I wasn’t comfortable in (enter the AP), I was feeling like a fraud at work, I was feeling insecure about a lot of things, I became very upset that my BH could not, this time, be there to support me in my time of need. I twisted this in my mind to be a justification. He was extremely angry at me post the birth of our second child. He would not talk to me and tell me why. He was visibly angry at me and we would go full weekends without speaking. I was so confused about this and looked around at our house and our kids and our neighborhood and could not understand why we couldn’t just be happy. I decided I would not continue to try to pry him out of his depression this time. I did urge him to get therapy but he refused. I just wanted him to be there for me at that time and try to understand me emotionally. In my mind, I told myself BH clearly doesn’t love me and I was seeking to feel happy again, in all the wrong ways. It blew up my life and career in the worst ways and in hindsight I was self destructing. We had lost a lot of the little things that mattered to me. Kissing before bed, holding hands.

The entirety of the A, I was aware of the fact that it was destructive, that AP was likely a liar and this was an MO for him, but I buried those thoughts to allow myself to continue. It was a terrible temporary coping mechanism.

He doesn't get a free pass because he was the initial victim. Especially since he's a mad hatter.

Or any empathy either apparently... He's broken; think that may have something to do with him "giving up"?

While he may be a mad hatter for betraying his own values, let's not pretend that they are the same thing.

The notion that he is equally culpable for failing to protect his marriage after learning that his wife cared more about her own base needs than him, her marital vows, and ultimately, her family, should be rejected outright. She shouldn't be told that she gets a pass for breaking the marriage because he failed too. The slate is never wiped clean. That he added to the pain changes nothing in terms of what she did.

She needs to know what she is being faced with if she wants any shot at this working.

He needs to move on with his life in one form or another. She needs to keep her children from this toxic environment.

I was seeking to feel happy again

BrokenAsh, this is my point. Healthy people do not engage in actions that result in the destruction of their career, marriage, and family. That you still think the why has anything to do with him is a problem.

Regardless of the circumstances, you let your selfish impulses overtake your values. The fallout from this was easily predictable. You knew at the time of your affair if found out, what the likely consequences were yet you did it anyway.

Whether you thought he loved you or not, you knew he would be crushed by this, which is why you hid it. You knew your children would be affected by the loss of your career and marriage but that didn't stop you.

BrokenAsh, I don't say any of this to be cruel. I truly believe in redemption. No one is ever beyond salvation. But we must be honest with ourselves about who we are and why we do the things we do. Nothing your husband did or didn't do caused your affair. Whatever pressures in life we face, we are expected to act in line with the principles we say we have and the vows that we make.

And the same goes for your husband. Nothing you did caused him to betray his values and his family. He had other choices. He will now have to live with that. But you, as a result of your feelings of guilt, enabling him as he sits around and concocts evil schemes for petty revenge on third parties is unhealthy. You need to get yourself and your children away from this disfunction. Maybe then he finally face his demons.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 11:26 PM, Thursday, September 2nd]

Your infidelity caused your WH enormous pain and he appears to feel it was a dealbreaker. He appears to be stringing you along as some kind of continuing punishment. I certainly commiserate with his pain and devastation. This is not uncommon. But after four years you need to continue to do the work for yourself to become a better partner in the future. I would definitely set a deadline for yourself and investigate a trial separation if things do not improve. The fact that you cheated does not give your BH a pass for his infidelity. He deliberately cheated. Just the same as any infidelity. There is never a rationalization or justification to cheat. To say their is, starts a slippery slope that only leads to all kinds of excuses. Cheating is cheating. Just my opinion. I am sure others feel differently and I respect their opinion.

I was much like your BH brokenash. My WW cheated almost two decades ago. 6ish month EA/PA with a coworker. We had three small children 5 and under at the time. I tried to deal with it initially, went to counselling, read books, etc., but the blameshifting and trickle truth sealed the deal for me. I told her about 18mo after d day that I wouldn't be faithful to her going forward and I wasn't. She eventually pulled her head out of her ass and made a complete change in herself. Owned what she did and did her best to make amends. Yet still I treated her like shit. All those years and I have never bought her a single card, flower, gift for any occasion. I never said "I love you" again. I made major purchases without consulting her. I made her irrelevant in my life. Sex completely changed too, there was no kissing, no foreplay for her, and I didn't give a shit if she finished or not. I had a blatant 18mo revenge affair that I made damn sure my wife knew about and another 5yr affair with another woman that I concealed. I even made plans to leave my wife for the second woman. The nest is now empty and I filed for divorce a few weeks ago.

My advice is to accept the consequences for your choices and file for divorce.

Buck, can I just ask why you did that? Were you staying together for the kids? Was your WW under the impression that things would get better? Was this your way of punishing her? This scares me as I’m scared it could be my fate. Did the kids notice? We never fight or argue in front of the kids, but I worry that the lack of seeing a healthy, loving relationship will also be damaging.

BrokenAsh,

Have you.....

Been entirely honest about the affair without omitting, minimizing or lying.

Written out a detailed timeline for the affair.

Offered to take a polygraph

Offered to DNA your kids

Provided honest sexual details

Is the OM better than your BH...

Taller

More handsome

More in shape

Make more money

Funnier

Better at sex

Etc.

It can be very difficult to believe a WW when any of the above are true, men are competitive. I have a mental image of OM1 as handsome, which my WW said to me, and it's difficult for me to shake it.

About his need for revenge has he....

Started a lawsuit against the company and OM since he was your boss.

Exposed the OM to everyone in his life that matters.

Exposed other affairs OM has had, perhaps the other BHs can do the dirty work for your BH.

Brainstorm with your BH about what you can do, hire a prostitute with STDs to seduce him etc.

Have you read "How to help your spouse heal from your affair"

When you say plotting revenge, is it affair related and who are they.

Asking separation can mean to him that you are giving up.

And, again, I'm troubled by these responses. BrokenAsh admitted that she did things wrong in the past, but she's got her act together now and is doing the work. Her BH is not. She's not his punching bag, she's his partner. The partnership has failed with her A being the main event that blew things up, she's trying to fix it, and he is not. That will never work. We always say that it takes two to R. It doesn't matter which person - the WS or the BS - is trying to save it. If the other partner isn't willing to do the work, it WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Ash, it sounds like your marriage wasn't a happy one before the A, and now you have this added layer of misery and dysfunction. Realistically, what do you think is the best outcome? What do you want to happen? Do you think it can happen, based on your experience with your H?

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 3:44 PM, Friday, September 3rd]

Regarding revenge, I just wanted my H to be on my side. I didn't want him to tell me to be the bigger person, or remind me that he was the one who betrayed me, or chastise me for being immature or spiteful. I just wanted to know that he was 100% on my side.

I hope that helps a little.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 3:50 PM, Friday, September 3rd]

Buck, can I just ask why you did that? Were you staying together for the kids? Was your WW under the impression that things would get better? Was this your way of punishing her? This scares me as I’m scared it could be my fate. Did the kids notice? We never fight or argue in front of the kids, but I worry that the lack of seeing a healthy, loving relationship will also be damaging.

Brokenash, revenge and punishment was a part of it. Nothing stops blameshifting like throwing the exact words back at the person doing it. There is some satisfaction in giving a cheater a taste of their own medicine.

I also didn’t think my wife was capable of raising our kids half of the time. I truly thought of her as a dumb whore. Her AP was a wife beating POS, was arrested for DV against OBS twice that I know of, so her judgment sucked. I would have had no control in the type of men she would have paraded around our children. So I sucked it up and stayed, but I was never really "all in" in the marriage after her betrayal. No matter what changes she made I just couldn’t see her in the same manner as before. I waffled occasionally thinking I could manage staying with her and we would go to MC for a few months. The situation might get better for a bit, but it was always just under the surface. Our kids had no idea. My wife was content with the status quo and I think she thought things would get better with time. To be fair, I am just not someone that could R with an unfaithful wife. I can’t tolerate the lack of trust and the disrespect. I can’t be with a woman that needed to fuck another man to realize how much she loved and wanted to be with me. That’s utter stupidity IMO. She disgusted me in the aftermath and I treated her like shit because of it. I stopped valuing her as a woman and a wife. I knew these things then and I completely embrace them now.

I have mixed feelings about how I handled the situation and the things I have done. I certainly have regrets. It is what it is. I’m trying to exit this marriage now fairly and move on from this shitshow.