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LuxuryJellO: I indicated to your WW that I would no longer be commenting on her thread. I explained to her my reasons. I really am not convinced she is 1. totally forthcoming with the truth (even though she has told/shared a lot) but she is being gaurded and is in total damage control wich makes it impossible to really help in guiding her in a totally unreserved way. 2. She seems to dodging the reality of her actions i.e. bringing OM to ythe marital home and further engaing in sex on the couch; and then attempts to explain in a "spinning" manner as to why she brought him there and why she turned off the security camera. Frustrates me to see her trying to explain this or justify it. I am also mistified that after expressing her undying love and her desire to be with OM (read it from your post), I saw no indication of ambivalence or desire to end it, however when caught in and confronted about the affair there is an automatic switch of her feelings and emotions towards OM. She is unable to explain it and attempts to shift around/ dance all over it, when I think she needs to honestly explain it. It's possible she cannot explain it at all. But as said previously, she i coming off like a politician doing damage control and that's not helping her cause, if she is serious about reconciliation. She is quite an articulate woman,I just wish she applied it in ways beneficial and advantageous to her goal of saving the marriage.

She alludes to the fact that I am taking it personally (because of my own experience) and therefore I am being accusatory. This could be further from the truth. I just want her to tell the truth all of it if she is really serious about R and for you two to survive the infidelity in your marriage. I don't know either of you but I have been reading both threads and I believe you are hurt as hell, confused but in all that you willing to have an open mind and make an effort, of course not knowing how it will end. I applaud you for that. I also believe your WW wants to stay in the marriage, my only plea to her is that sheshe be completely honest because otherwise R is doomed.

Continue posting; people on this forum are genuine, they advise from experience not from malice.

jello,

This is about you. I agree your W is too messed up/clinging to the lies she tells herself/being selfish to a fault. Insert the one that makes the most sense in this five minutes, you can change your answer in the next.

One thing I see is that she is trying to control the outcome and by extension you. She needs to stop that and you need to draw a firm boundary right this minute. You wonder who is looking out for you. YOU. Nothing wrong with looking out for #1.

She needs a clearer head before she can do anything that just doesn't push you away further.

Is MC and the daily check ins really helping you? I'd bet they often ruin your day/night ? JHMO. Stop them both. This is something that can be worked on later, if needed. It is a waste of time and money as neither of you understand infidelity right now. Neither of you are able to have coherent conversations about your relationship. It takes time to figure things out and it is easier with less interference from your WS. You know where she is right now. Got it. What else is there to say ?

IC is where the most value added introspection will take place. Worst case it helps you deal with demons you might be carrying for far too long (we all have them BTW). Ir eally hope she is in IC too. She sounds confused as heck and I'd put money that there is more than a little manipulation going on there.

You are getting all kinds of advice. I'll try to keep in short and hopefully provide some balance for someone further out in this mess. . .

It is clear that you care about her. Not many BS would tell people to call off the dogs. You can care about someone's well being, but it doesn't mean you should be M to them. OR it can mean that there is something to build on. Either way it means you are a good guy and can have compassion for people that don't deserve it. That is a rare thing in this world. Don't ever lose it. It is easy to in a situation where so many choices were already made for you.

Don't confuse familiar for what is best for you. What may be "best" for you may seem uncomfortable and foreign. (e.g. IC) You do what you think might work until it stops working for you. Trial and error. Try new things even if they seem "wrong" or uncomfortable. This fosters growth.

Right now I think you need a break. No contact. Take some time to let the emotions fade. The contact attempts are not helping either of you begin your own healing journey which is the first step in this hell we call infidelity.

Keep posting.

With regards to the deleted text and instagram messages, what has she done to attempt to retrieve them? Anything? In my opinion, these messages are key to sorting out the full truth and all measures should be taken to retrieve as many of them as possible.

I think Ponus18 had some great points and observations. Your wife sounds regretful, but she will need lots of IC to become a better and safer partner. I do believe that she has a chance of becoming this partner, but it remains to be seen if this will work out for you. It sounds like she is really panicked right now and this is not good. Panic can make for some awful decisions that both of you might regret later. Believe me, I know..... You both have youth in your side and it seems like you sort of grew up together having been together for 13 years

You should ask yourself if you are trying to stay together because of the familiarity and the comforts of home and marital security (health insurance etc.) or because you can really see yourself building a life with each other, having a family and raising children if that is what you want. You both need to explore these issues and go from there. I would stop MC at this point and only explore IC for both of you individually.

LuxuryJellO, I don't have much to add that others haven't addressed very well. I just wanted to say I know the hell you are going through. If R is your choice, be prepared for the good and bad that come with it. I only recently got a "true" timeline, and got TT'ed for almost a year. That nearly broke me. This is so fresh for you both, and I applaud you having some separation. Whatever the outcome, I wish you both healing. Take care brother.

Is MC and the daily check ins really helping you? I'd bet they often ruin your day/night ? JHMO. Stop them both.

You make a good point. We HAVE stopped the MC. And you're right that the daily check-ins are probably the worst part of my day. They make me less productive and affect my mood long after the call ends. Many times, I just want the torture of the conversation to be over. Other times, though, I do feel like I get something out of the calls... the clarity from saying my feelings out loud?

I think another part of the reason why I agree to do the check-ins (without getting into too much detail since it's not entirely my story to tell) is because WW has had some problems in the past with addictions and relapse, and I want to make sure she's not spiraling or doing something even worse. If I feel she's sounding overly volatile, I make her promise to me that she'll remain responsible in regard to her personal health.

...Yes, yes. I know, this probably isn't good for me since it again falls under the umbrella of me once again not putting my own needs first. I just don't want something terrible to happen to her and realize that I could've prevented it.

With regards to the deleted text and instagram messages, what has she done to attempt to retrieve them? Anything?

Not really. I mean, from the research I've seen, deleted instagram messages aren't recoverable once accounts are blocked/deleted. And the incriminating texts were zapped out of her phone probably in May when I first got suspicious. I think way too much time has passed to recover anything of use. But if somebody who's actually used one of these recovery programs can chime in with first-hand experience, I'd love to hear it. If there's even a slight chance I could recover some of their communication, I'll pay whatever the fee is to try.

Update: Today was the day WW finally presented me with a written disclosure timeline of the entire A.

With the help of her phone's location tracking data over the last year (thanks, Google!) she went date by date, point by point, and told me exactly every time she met up with OM. I was able to look at the stored data myself to independently verify all of this information. She went through and told me exactly how many times they met at a hotel for sex, exactly how many times they met up for coffee, exactly how many times they went shopping together, exactly how many times they went for long walks over their lunch breaks...

The funny thing about this all is, I was bracing to lose my sanity and become a blubbering mess upon hearing all the info laid out in a timeline fashion. But instead, I was just... resigned. I sat there, listened to her story, asked a few follow-up questions, then pretty much said, "ok, we done here?" and left for work.

Not sure if this is numbness or acceptance. it could be a good thing (I'm moving on with my life!) or a step backward (I'm refusing to deal with my emotions head-on!).

I think that your hanging in there. Its going to be a process as you work through your emotions and work on your emotional health.

If you feel like daily calls and stuff is helpful to you then its fine. But if you feel like it isn't then its fine to not have them also.

Ultimately this is about you working on yourself to heal yourself. If there was ever a time in your life to be a little selfish and work on yourself this is the time.

If you don't want to talk to your WW then don't. And if you do then do. Your probably going to be up and down. There is no obligation and you should feel no obligation either way.

I think you would have to be numb. How could you not having a love affair laid out like that. You need to process this.

I will say substitute hotel sex for sex at home and what you described is a marriage

You being numb is because you are the victim of abuse. The worst kind. Not only did she have an affair but she effectively rubbed your nose in it the entire way (giving you bread that her Douche boyfriend made, for example)

My point is that at some point your body can't take anymore. It's just checked out of all of this bullshit. Pumping your body full of endorphins and all of that stuff is a function of your 'fight or flight' instinct. You've probably already chose flight subconsciously, or your body is just done pimping you full of chemicals.

Either way it's a lot healthier than having it chew away at you. Know that you are not 'broken' if you don't feel a way that you perceive you should be feeling.

You have all of the information that you need. You don't need to recover messages at this point. You don't need to check in on her behavior - she removed that responsibility from you when she unilaterally ended your marriage in favor of a relationship with her boyfriend. Have her parents worry about that now. You need a nice period of time to lick your wounds and let silence begin to heal you.

You're not going to heal by dedicating your days being her caretaker

LuxuryJellO, if she uses an iPhone, you can view a bunch of backup files and use free recovery programs to view. I didn't get too much (the A ended ~ 2 years before dday), but i got enough. Just beware of what you kight read. What i read isnt the woman I'm married to now. No excuse, but just keep it in kind if you are able to recover anything.

I should have said, you can recover the backup files from the computer her (if she had/has one) iphone without the actual phone. I installed the program I used on our PC, and recovered her iPhone backup history, and got texts, pics, internet histories, etc going back to when she got the phone. It was super easy to use and proved very helpful to me. I have no idea about other types of phones and I know it didn't recover any Instagram, or other apps.

Hope this helps.

Dr Fone.

It will only delete when the phone runs out of space. It's worth a shot

Jello-

Being numb or calm now is normal...you can only live on adrenaline for so long.

I think your caveman brain thinks that you escaped the attack of the sabretooth tiger (first phase of dealing with WW affair) when the fight or flight reaction kicked in.

Since you survived that you are calmer and able to make logical decisions about how to survive the next sabretooth attack. Perfectly normal...welcome to the roller coaster.

PS Does she use Gmail? For some reason Gmail saves a lot of stuff that you think is in the trash. IF she does, and you can access it go to the tab on the far left side under "More" and click on "All Mail". In that file there can be sent, received, spam and trashed email going back a long time....

luxjell,

I'm sorry you had to endure that. I will say, it's a good sign that your wife gave you all the gory details. It's good in the sense that you probably have almost everything. And it's good in the sense that it means she's trying pretty hard. She may be starting to wake up.

I had a thought though, about some of her answers and why I find them frustrating and why I think you might find them frustrating. She's good with arguments. For example, you find the love letter with all of the gory details explaining how he's her soul mate and how the word love can't even describe how deeply she feels for him. You feel like saying, "a HA! In your own words, you loved him!" But she blithely bats it away and says, "I was just acting. I didn't really feel that way. I was just trying to tell him what I thought he wanted to hear." And you're left with nothing. How can you deny what she's saying? You don't know what's in her mind, only she does.

What she doesn't understand is that it doesn't matter what she really thought or felt, because she backed up what she wrote with actions. It's not like this was an online affair that she wrote this and never met him. In that case, she could have a real argument that everything was pretend. But not in this case. She had sex with him. Frequently. Over a long period of time. Pretty much whenever he wanted it. She had sex with him in your house. It doesn't matter that she says she didn't intend to have sex with him in your house, because she went ahead and did it. And POSOM has very good reasons to believe that she loved him. After all, he's thinking, look at everything she did to prove it! She never turned me down. She did whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. She wasn't having sex with her husband.

You see? You should explain that to her. That it doesn't matter what she supposedly thought or felt, because she backed it up with action. It's like saying you don't like chocolate, but yet you eat it all the time.

Here's an analogy. Suppose POSOM is a kidnapper. he gives your wife a gun and then the two of them kidnap some people and hold them for ransom. He goes out for groceries and your wife holds a gun on the victims. Then the police show up and arrest them. Your wife says, "hey, I was just pretending. I'm not into it. I didn't really feel like a kidnapper." That wouldn't go over too well would it? It just wouldn't work because she backed up her words with actions.

Your wife did everything that someone in an affair and in love would do. She can't turn around now and say, well, I didn't feel that way. I was just pretending. If so, why did she back it up? Don't let her say I don't know. After you've done what she's done, you can't say I don't know. You can't say, I was just pretending. She did what she did. She wasn't insane, and she wasn't in a fog. She turned off the cameras. She lied and planned and schemed. She did it for months. She intentionally hid it from you for months. She didn't just go along with things. She was all in.

I say all this, because for you, and for her, she needs to own this. She needs to dig deep and find out why she did it. Not deny that it meant anything. You and everyone here knows that's bullshit. It's not a mistake. She did it because she wanted to. She needs to figure out why she wanted to. Until your wife comes to grips with that reality, she's not going to become a safe partner and you're not going to be happy with her answers.

anyway, sorry for the wall-o-text.

There is some good news though. it's pretty obvious to me and anyone perceptive that she's trying hard to keep you. She may not understand what's going on entirely. She may not know her whys. But she knows she made some very bad decisions. And she knows there's a better than fair chance that's she's going to lose you. She has the option to run off with POSOM. She's instead trying to stay with you. Maybe it's a fools errand. But at least you know she's trying.

good luck friend. You'll get out of this. One way or another. And you'll be happy again.

[This message edited by mike7 at 10:11 PM, August 8th (Tuesday)]

And I would LOVE IT if she showed signs of real remorse... But you're right, it's all in actions. And right now, her actions are so sporadic that I don't know what's going on in her head.

And you're right that the daily check-ins are probably the worst part of my day. They make me less productive and affect my mood long after the call ends. Many times, I just want the torture of the conversation to be over.

I'm not sure how you see this. You accuse her of not doing enough, but you don't want to interact with her. I understand the separation, but I cannot see what you expect.

You're not going to like this, but I'm not here to win a popularity contest.

As well as being a cheat, your wife is an addict, and has previously relapsed. You've played your part in the codependent dance that is a relationship to an addict. If she's done NA or AA, then she knows all "the right words". Knows how to "work a program". You're bound to her by the guilty strings of co-addiction, and by virtue of the fact that you're self-employed.

Now, your WW may have quit drinking or cocaine or whatever it was, but she's still using. The affair was her still fully engaged in her disease.

And because you've gone through the addiction/recovery/relapse cycle, you know this.

Addicts lie. They lie to loved ones. They lie to the police. They lie to whoever they want to, but most of all to themselves.

An addict in the grip of their addiction is functionally insane. You know this. Can't reason with them, can't appeal to their better judgement, can't love them into stopping. They will destroy themselves and anyone next to them until arrested, killed or somehow forced to stop.

And they will be very sincere about how they'll be good, and not want to go back to using, and will work and whatever needs to be done. And, for a while...they will be.

And then they get comfortable. They forget about being vigilant. About dealing healthfully with triggers. About "people, places and things". About relapse prevention.

And then they smoke a joint. Or have that one beer. Or talk to somebody they shouldn't.

Whatever emptiness she's been trying to fill, she hasn't been filling it. The leaky bucket hasn't been patched.

You have her letters. Look at them. View them through the filter of an addict chasing a high. Look at the initiative. The planning. The lack of regard fir consequences. One more hit. One more high. I can stop this any time I want to.

You're afraid she'll relapse. She has. A year ago. You just didn't spot it because you're used to looking for track marks or empty bottles. She's got a new drug of choice. And she's been using pretty heavily for over a year.

I'm really sorry. This is a bad situation.

But...addicts lie. You know this. She knows this. We all know this. And she wasn't going to stop using.

She's not safe. She wasn't before, you stuck around, she relapsed, got better etc. She's still not safe. She probably never will be.

This is the rest of your life. First drugs or booze, and now this.

Your life. Your choice to stay or go. But take a good, hard look at what shes shown you.

[This message edited by Forged1 at 10:42 PM, August 8th (Tuesday)]

Were there any major surprises in the timeline?

Mike7: No need to apologize for the "wall-o-text." Anybody who wants to write that many words to me, I'm happy to read them.

I think you do a good job putting into words why so much of WW's story is frustrating. I tried summarizing some of those arguments during our check-in call today, but it didn't go great. She resisted, saying that providing context and clarification of her thought process is important to understanding why she did all this. She's still refusing to judge herself by her actions alone, and it's a big problem. I ended the call very shortly thereafter, telling her she still has a lot of work to do.

sensibletinch:

I'm not sure how you see this. You accuse her of not doing enough, but you don't want to interact with her. I understand the separation, but I cannot see what you expect.

Good point. Maybe I'm being hypocritical. I understand that by living separately and ending our calls quickly, she doesn't have much opportunity to show me that she has real remorse. It's tricky. I don't really know what to do about that.

Forged1:

As well as being a cheat, your wife is an addict, and has previously relapsed. You've played your part in the codependent dance that is a relationship to an addict. If she's done NA or AA, then she knows all "the right words". Knows how to "work a program". You're bound to her by the guilty strings of co-addiction, and by virtue of the fact that you're self-employef.

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by that last sentence? I'm guilty of co-addiction? ...Because I'm self-employed? I don't understand.