SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

SisterMilkshake,

Feb 19th, 2017 DDay ap#3 and 4

March 16th,2017 TT AP#3,4 and dday AP#2

Last contact AP#3 Dec 8th,2016 FaceTime sex, PA Dec2nd,2016

Last contact AP#4 first week of Jan,2017. Sex in our minivan.

False R start March 2016

AP#3 Jan 2016-March 2016, then Dec 2016

AP#4 Sept 2016-Jan 2017

All PA

[This message edited by Catch44 at 2:37 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Thanks, Catch44. Dec 8th 2016 and January 2017?

Catch44..

Where you demanding sex becuase you felt it was owed?

Or did you demand sex becuase you wanted to feel close to her?

I originally wanted to respond to the OP and I will secondarily. I must address, again, the rape comments. In MY experience, my husband pinned me to the bed and had sex with me and finished despite my begging him to stop. I'm sorry you don't feel that was rape because he didn't punch me in the face, or have a weapon. It sure felt like rape to me. You know it's funny I was raped and molested for ten years as a child and I could have sworn it was like the same experience. I'm so glad we have experts who know what rape really. Phew. </sarcasm>

^^ Clearly rape. You begged him to stop. He forced you. In the 2nd case, you were a child. All clearly rape. My response was in reply to the scenarios given earlier in the thread:

Forced sex.This should be obvious. But some men have the mistaken idea that marriage changes the rules. It doesn’t. If a husband holds his wife down, pushes her, or imposes sex by hurting her, it’s rape. Making love doesn’t include making someone cry.

Sex when the wife feels threatened. If a husband forces sex through verbal threats of harm to the woman or to people or things she cares about or if he comes to her in a barely contained rage, she can’t consent. She can only comply rather than risk being harmed either physically or emotionally.

Sex by manipulation.If a husband calls his wife names, accuses her of not being a good wife, or blackmails her emotionally by suggesting she’s so bad in bed that he will go elsewhere, he’s manipulating her. Some men even threaten to leave and take the kids with him if their wives don’t comply with demands for sex. When a wife falls for these tactics, it isn’t consent. It’s rape.

Sex when the wife can’t give consent.Loving sex is genuinely consensual. If a woman is drugged, asleep, intoxicated or unconscious, she obviously can’t give consent. Even if she says “yes” in such circumstances, the “consent” isn’t valid or truthful. She’s in no shape to consider the consequences or to participate as a willing partner.

Sex by taking a woman hostage.Some men keep themselves in a position of superiority by controlling all the money, by making contact with friends and family difficult to impossible, or by making sure there is no way for her to get transportation out of the house. The woman becomes a hostage in her own home. Like many hostages, she gives up and gives in to whatever he wants — including sex.

Sex when the woman feels she has no choice.Giving in isn’t the same as giving consent. When a woman feels that it’s just easier to give in to sex than to respect her own needs, she is being raped.

Let’s be clear: Being married doesn’t make any of the above situations okay. Wives do not belong to their husbands. Sex is not a “right” that goes with marriage. It is not a wife’s duty. A woman does not give up her right to say yes or no the day she gets married. Sex should be based on respect, equality, consent, caring, and clear communication.

No woman wants to feel like she’s living with a rapist. Good men don’t want to be one.

Taking them in order, first 2, clearly rape. Force is the defining characteristic of rape, it's a violent crime. Holding someone down and having sex against their will, that's rape. Holding a gun to their head to have sex with you? Also rape, clear as day.

The rest of them? I'm sorry, none of those are rape. That's called "being a crappy person" or a terrible partner perhaps, but not rape. By those definitions, I've been raped 100's of times. I had sex with women many times when I was too drunk to consent. I am coerced into sex when I didn't feel like it; that happens all the time in my marriage (my wife likes it in the evening, me in the morning; if I don't do it in the evening, I'm probably not going to have sex, ergo, coercion).

If you have a choice and you decide to have sex with someone, even if you don't feel like it, don't enjoy it, or really can't stand the person, but still decide to do it, that's not rape. It's bad sex, and that's not a crime. No, it's not rape if you say "I'm going to leave and take the money with me if we don't have sex", it's histrionics and acting like a 5 year old, but that's not rape. Expanding the definition to be as broad as you have belittles those who've actually been raped, because, I, and I'm sure many (most? all?) people out there meet some of these criteria and have had sex under these circumstances before. Which means we've all been raped or are rapists. That's not a reasonable position to take; everyone who drinks a lot and has sex is a rape victim? Not in my book, however, in the eyes of the law, perhaps.

SisterMilkshake, Yes

Prissy4lyfe, recently for closeness. In the past, closeness and poor coping for anxiety I believe. But that anxiety was wanting closeness. The rejection was something that hurt feelings. It was not right what I expected. It just wasn't. I am more mindful. So maybe the anxiety of closeness still. I don't know. 😔

[This message edited by Catch44 at 2:27 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

What makes you an expert on what is deemed rape, Rideitout? Interesting that you felt you had to join because you needed to share your opinions on rape. Why is that? Why do you feel that you need to educate women on what rape is or isn't?

Look, just because that is your opinion on what rape is or isn't doesn't mean it is the truth or factual. Which they are neither.

I can agree only with the purest definition of rape, however where we part ways is this. My ex would do the following things in order to get me to have sex. Sleep deprivation, endless hounding, like literally eight hours, name calling, with holding other things like money, sulking, throwing, the list is endless. Is it rape because I finally said (graphic sorry) fuck me and get it over with. Technically no, however when your quality of life is utterly decimated behind someone's desire to have sex, that's clearly abusive. I felt like a semen receptacle. I'm not the only one who's been in this position, it happens frequently and it's utterly abusive and ridiculous. I don't know that I would call that scenario rape, but it's totally and equally wrong, in my opinion.

I have been reading this thread and I am in disbelief that it is even being dIscussed.

In 2017.

Does anyone have a slave to sell?

Can you believe that women got the right to vote?

Marriage is partnership, not OWNERSHIP.

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 2:14 PM, May 21st (Sunday)]

What really stands out to me is the attitude of entitlement coming from some BS on this thread to justify sexually abusing their WS.

We see a lot of talk on SI about WS justifications and entitlement and how unhealthy those things are, but apparently, to some, it's a non-issue when a BS behaves in the same manner?!?

Good on you Catch44 for being willing to be reflective and asking tough questions of yourself, not all BS are willing to do that (and some BS, like me, take a long time to get there). At the end of the day, whether your R is successful or not, this introspection will serve you well.

Sex must always be consensual. In a long relationship, of course sometimes one person is more interested than the other, and my general philosophy is that if I can get myself in the mood when he expresses interest, I'm happy to have that connection with my partner. But if I can't, that's just life, and I won't have him get angry with me over it. Sexual infidelity is never EVER an excuse to treat your spouse like a 'slut' or a 'whore' or to expect sex on demand. That's just piling more dysfunction onto the dysfunction you aren't properly dealing with. That won't lead anywhere good.

I dont budget on my body belongs to me...period. I dont negotiate or compromise. Needs don't equate letting my husband invade my body to alleviate his frustration.

Catch44...

If R is your goal then you have a responsibility to vocalize your needs. If you need closeness then say that. But understand closeness does not mean sex. And if you have been abusive the past in this regard I would suggest you remove aex all together and find other nonsexual waya to be intimate with her.

What makes you an expert on what is deemed rape, Rideitout? Interesting that you felt you had to join because you needed to share your opinions on rape. Why is that? Why do you feel that you need to educate women on what rape is or isn't?

Look, just because that is your opinion on what rape is or isn't doesn't mean it is the truth or factual. Which they are neither.

No, sadly, they are neither factual (it is in fact rape if you have sex with a person too drunk to consent) nor truthful (because it's not a fact). I felt compelled to join because I consider the status quo to be completely ridiculous. Using this definition, I've been raped dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. I think that statement is utterly ridiculous, and I think it's even more ridiculous to imply that "sex with my spouse when I don't feel like it" is also rape. You are free to your opinion, and, in fact, your opinion is more in keeping with the laws currently in place. I still stand my assertion that being forced at gun point to have sex or being held down by a man 2X your size and brutalized is a very different crime than your wife/husband initiating sex when you don't feel like and you acquiescing to their wishes. But, as you correctly point out, the "facts" (current law) does not support my viewpoint on the issue, and, as such, I'm wrong.

I'll close with this. I think we do a great disservice to the low desire spouse (typically, but not always the woman) to equate "duty sex" with rape. Making a person think their husband/wife is a rapist when, in fact, they probably just want to express and experience love in the way that fulfills them is a terrible thing to place in someone's head. If your husband or wife is insistent on having sex with you, you can view them as a rapist, or you can view them as someone madly in love with you that is trying to show you how much they care. It's your choice.

If your husband or wife is insistent on having sex with you, you can view them as a rapist, or you can view them as someone madly in love with you that is trying to show you how much they care.

I will agree that general nagging about sex is not rape. But it is not love either. A person who loves their spouse does not insist on or demands sex. Because on demand sex is a one way satisfaction. If that is what you want, call it what it is: a sexual release. Don't call it love or love making.

If I wake up horny at night and my WH is deeply asleep, there is no way I would wake him up to satisfy my desire. I care enough for him to let him sleep. While sex can be a deeply bonding act, when it is demanded without consideration of the other partner, it is just about getting a release. Let's not pretend it is an act of love.

I will agree that general nagging about sex is not rape. But it is not love either. A person who loves their spouse does not insist on or demands sex. Because on demand sex is a one way satisfaction. If that is what you want, call it what it is: a sexual release. Don't call it love or love making.

If I wake up horny at night and my WH is deeply asleep, there is no way I would wake him up to satisfy my desire. I care enough for him to let him sleep. While sex can be a deeply bonding act, when it is demanded without consideration of the other partner, it is just about getting a release. Let's not pretend it is an act of love.

You might want to ask him, as a BH, let me tell you, I'd be happy to wake up at 3AM and do whatever is on my wife's mind sexually. Thrilled, in fact. I can sleep when I'm dead.

You're free to think of it that way. I think a lot of people (mostly women) do. But, for both men and women, getting a "release" by yourself is easier, faster, and, in a lot of cases, more directly pleasurable than "bothering" you for sex. As long as your partner has 2 hands, he's got all he needs for release right there. So why is he coming to you? You might think it's for release, he might actually even say it is. But is it really? At least in my case, when I have a "I need to have sex" feeling, it's almost always a "I want to be close to my wife" and not "I need an orgasm". Orgasms are simple, fast, and pleasurable solo; in fact, probably the best ones I've ever had have been solo. I suspect that's even more true for women.

So, ask yourself, is it really the release he wants? I suppose it could be, but I suspect it's deeper than that, even if he doesn't know how to express it correctly.

The level of ridiculousness spewed on this thread concerning rape would be laughable if not held by actual people.

Again....EDUCATION. Not ASSumption.

Again...I dont give a damn if he is my husband if I dont want to I dont. Period.

I could be having a bad day... Tired...just painted my nails...counting the grains of salt in our salt shaker...NO is NO.

And no I wont view him as "someone who loves me"... I would view him as a selfish asshole who is only thinking of himself and would treat him.accordingly by leaving him to himself

And if he cant find big boy words to ask for closeness instead of sex( they are NOT the same) then thats on him.

Rape and other sexual assault can result in physical trauma, tissue damage and infection, but most people will not suffer visible physical injury. Undue importance is often placed on the presence or absence of physical injury when considering whether a rape occurred, in part because of old definitions of rape that were based on "use of force" rather than "lack of consent".

You might want to ask him, as a BH, let me tell you, I'd be happy to wake up at 3AM and do whatever is on my wife's mind sexually.

Yes, we have talked about this. And no, when he is tired, he does not want to be woken up at 3am, just as I don't.

So, ask yourself, is it really the release he wants? I suppose it could be, but I suspect it's deeper than that, even if he doesn't know how to express it correctly.

I wasn't talking about my WH. He does not pester me for sex. We have pretty complimentary drives. And we respect each other's boundaries. We both understand that there would be times when he may want sex and I may not and vice versa.

But really, your logic is faulty. If men did not want sex for release but for love, why do people go to prostitutes? For emotional bonding?????? Why do people have ONS? For a spiritual connection?

Such strongly held views....how are they working out for you in your marriage?

Let's make a deal. Let's make sure we communicate our views on this subject to any future suitors. I will make clear to any future wife that I expect sex at least twice a week, and will view anything less as a breach of the marital covenant (unless health issues or other exigencies interfere). You, in turn, make clear to your intended that you will have sex on your terms, when and if you feel like it, and that rate may markedly diminish as limerance ends and the daily grind takes its toll.

PlanC....to whom is your question directed?

Marriages have many differences, PlanC. I think everyone understands that sex is important in marriage, but so is everything else.

The sex ended in my marriage when I realized only one of us was getting all their needs met. And it wasn't me.

He is free to meet my needs or go. But he is not entitled to my body just because I have a ring on my finger. It's still mine.

Just a casual observation: in most marriages I have seen, one spouse seems to have more power. If it's the man, it seems the wife rarely says No. (my sister's marriage) And if it's the woman, the husband gets what he gets. (my marriage now) Is there a way to bring a relationship into true balance? That seems to be what most of us are striving for, where everyone's needs are met. Right?