SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't give a FUCK what my vows said....

MY BODY MY DAMN CHOICE. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

I dont fuck people I dont want to....including the man I'm married too.

I dont give a damn if he spent all day calling me Princess, buying me shoes, fanning me and hand feeding me enchanted Godiva chocolate that was guaranteed to not me fat...and I got in bed naked. When I say NO...thats what I mean.

So I've been sitting here “catching up” on this thread since I've had a busy day and I have to say, wow I'm so shocked. I'm no special snowflake by any far stretch of the imagination I can not believe in this day and age there are people walking around who think rape and abuse are no big deal. Wow.

I am a mad hatter. After leaving my marriage I found that my ex was a chronic cheater, which btw doesn't matter. I do not desire to be forced physically to have sex with anyone. Not a stranger in an alley nor the man I married. It doesn't matter if I'm “innocent” or I've fucked every man I've ever laid eyes on.

Abuse of any sort is NEVER okay. I came here as a BS and chose to be honest about my history as a WS. I had no reason to disclose this as it is anonymous and no one here could know, but I chose to be honest about who I am.

I'm so over the “free pass” some humans give themselves when they discover infidelity. It's fine to scram, throw things, hit (at times) and demand sex. I'm sorry, but you don't get to hold WS feet to the fire and talk about them owning their shit and what not and at the exact same time do whatever you please, because in your eyes it's okay. It is never okay to be intntionally cruel, which by the way is totally different then being caught up in your emotions and raging in that moment. The two are diameterical opposites.

If you believe you have the right to abuse your spouse in any arena, do your kids a favor and just divorce. Your kids are watching and you are teaching them either it's okay to do that or okay to have it done to you. Yes, your WS committed a heinous AND abusive act. That is an absolute. That doesn't give you the right or the excuse to choose to be abusive. That's not how it works. If you are both all in to work on the marriage that means you choose to move forward rather then take a razor and get your pound of flesh.

I'm stepping away from this thread for a bit. I would rather not say things I regret.

A man should make his wife feel cherished, respected and loved. His words and actions should let his wife know that he treasures her, that he wants to be with her above all others, that he "has her back" for her lifetime, come what may. I can't imagine that a woman would willingly give up her youth, beauty and options if she knew in advance that a man wouldn't so value her. A man that does not attempt to meet these emotional needs of his wife is a bad husband.

A woman should recognize men are designed to have high sex drives, and this sex drive is core to male self-identity. I can't imagine that a man would give up his freedom, options and resources if he knew in advance that doing so would mean a lifetime of sexual frustration. A woman who does not meet her husband's physical needs is a bad wife.

(The reciprocal is also true--men's emotional needs and women's physical needs).

In unhappy marriages destructive cycles start where husbands and wives intentionally withhold that which their partner needs because they feel like their own needs are unmet. A wife withholds sex because she feels unloved. Her sexually frustrated husband treats her with disdain and criticism out of anger. And the cycle repeats, each time building in amplitude. Eventally a less-evolved wife may justify an affair because of her "angry, abusive, controlling" husband. Eventually a less-evolved husband may justify an affair because of his "frigid" wife and "dead bedroom." Each could have stopped the cycle if they had swallowed their pride and tried very hard to meet their partner's needs without immediate expectation of returned satisfaction.

Based on what appears to be the predominant feminine view here, I guess it's OK to give love and support to my partner only when I am in the mood to do so. If I am busy with work, or am reeling from a bad day, it's okay for me to shut down and ignore her requests to talk or spend time together. And, well, if she's got a problem with that she's just going to have to understand because nobody is going to tell me what to do or nag me into it. After all, I have my pride, and pride is so very important.

Although come to think about it, ignoring and criticizing my wife appears to have been what led to her first affair. I criticized her constantly (in my defense, she did some horrible things which I did not recognize at that time were due to increasing mental illness). She withdrew sexually (despite her very high sex drive). That made me even angrier and more irritated. And the cycle persisted and increased until she sought to leave the marriage through exit affairs (and, ultimately, triggered a massive bipolar episode through the stress of it all that has left her in a permanent delusional state).

So if your spouse has needs, I suggest you meet them. That even holds true for meeting the needs of wayward spouses if you are attempting reconciliation--not because they deserve it but because marriage won't work otherwise.

[This message edited by PlanC at 10:40 PM, May 20th (Saturday)]

Many men here seem to have great difficultly understanding that "demand" sex is not = to "demand" affection or = to "demand" needs. Maybe the 'predominantly feminine' view here is because an overwhelming number of us, and women, have been pressured, coerced or manipulated into "on demand sex."

I'm sorry PlanC, but ignoring your shitty mood to love and support your partner is a whole lot different to rolling over and letting your spouse invade your body when you don't want it, which erodes into your relationship and, by the way, can be quite painful if you are unaroused.

Smokenfire you are spot on. I was starting to get a little disturbed by some responses.

Oh, and Smoken, I absolutely agree that if a wayward spouse won't give the betrayed spouse the same things they gave their affair partner--whether it be parking lot sex or romancing--they should be discarded.

Love & support DO NOT mean sex.

And I will certainly be called a "bad" wife. I dont sleep with people when I dont want...including my husband. And it could be for as simple a reason as "just not feeling".

My body is MY OWN and I dont have to let my husband invade it so he can have some "self-esteem". Because if sticking his penis into a warm wet hole makes him feel better about himself...then he is in deeper trouble than I thought.

Amd then sex isnt about connection or intamcy its about control.

I apologize to you all for my treatment of my wife.

I plan to use the 19 keys and apply them to myself.

Is it something that I should do myself? Or has my wife exacted a certain retribution with the affairs? What "should" her role be in healing? What is fair?

Constructively, how do I proceed? What does my wife need? How do I balance my complete lack of trust and fear that she might not be genuine?

What is she doing to show remorse for what she did and how it impacted you?

Plan C, I was on board with you. I believed that at one point. I would try to make time for sex. Get myself in the mood. Despite having a full time job, newborn twins and a 3 yr old. I cooked, I cleaned, everything. I never turned down his advances, hell made a few towards him. Guess what? Still wasn't good enough. WH was cheating the entire time, through both pregancies and then some. C section wasnt even healed before he was out catting around. We are on R, but I won't be forcing myself to anything I don't want ever again.

[This message edited by Shotintheheart at 12:31 AM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Shot, it is impossible for me to gin up any sympathy for a "man" that would cheat on his pregnant wife.

A) Prissy is my shero.

B) So is Smokenfire.

I'm so over the “free pass” some humans give themselves when they discover infidelity. It's fine to scram, throw things, hit (at times) and demand sex. I'm sorry, but you don't get to hold WS feet to the fire and talk about them owning their shit and what not and at the exact same time do whatever you please...

A-frickin-Men.

My body is MY OWN and I dont have to let my husband invade it so he can have some "self-esteem". Because if sticking his penis into a warm wet hole makes him feel better about himself...then he is in deeper trouble than I thought.

Amd then sex isnt about connection or intamcy its about control.

NAILED IT. (Pun not intended.)

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 12:44 AM, May 21st (Sunday)]

What is she doing to show remorse for what she did and how it impacted you?

I have my list in my journal:

• reading books

• going to IC twice a month, had been going weekly

•has withstood my anger with understanding

•vocalizing that efforts are toward healing

• accountable for time , less so since we talked to lawyers

• takes a child when goes to the store or errands

• trying to find my list in my journal

•

There is going to be fear for me for a while.

Her eyes the last time we talked. Her fear of going back to what was. That is how I feel she is fighting to stay.

We went to MC and R is going pretty good. Only on DD, but it was friggin Hiroshima, finding out about all of it at once. There will be no DD2, only D. I struggle with this thread b/c it goes to show how clueless we are about eachother. Do I have any business in R if I have no intention of ever doing something I don't want to do for the sake of love?

I apologize to you all for my treatment of my wife.

You don't owe us an apology. Tell her you're sorry, if you haven't already. Regardless of what SHE did to YOU, you owe her an apology for that.

Is it something that I should do myself? Or has my wife exacted a certain retribution with the affairs? What "should" her role be in healing? What is fair?

There ain't nothin' fair about infidelity and affair recovery. My tagline on my old SI profile (I couldn't remember the password and no longer have that email) said "Life is unfair for everyone – that’s what makes it fair."

Get "fair" out of your head. Get retribution out of your head. A tit-for-tat mindset isn't healthy. Treat each transgression individually. Just because you demanded sex didn't make it okay for her to cheat. And just because someone cheated doesn't give the BS the right to demand sex. It goes both ways. Focus on building a healthy new dynamic.

What does my wife need?

Ask her. Talk to her.

How do I balance my complete lack of trust and fear that she might not be genuine?

She might not be genuine. There's no way to really know. You can believe, but you can't know. Does that make sense? You can either choose to believe her, take steps together to rebuild trust and move forward with real R, and realize that you're going to have to be vulnerable to do so, you can throw in the towel and D, or you can stay stuck in a state of distrust and self pity.

Real R takes guts.

Catch,

What has she done to show empathy and remorse for how her actions have impacted you? More than IC. Is she able to show you she understands how you hurt without blaming you or justifying her affair? If not, then she is still in a wayward mindset. Don't be too quick to fall on your sword in an effort to save your marriage. You'll set yourself up sure misery if you do.

I don't want to speak for planc but what I read from his post wasn't a "let my husband have access to my body at all costs if I love him" thing. It was trying to convey that men and women have different needs that both need meeting and often when they start to become unmet things head south in a marriage very quickly. Often due to a lack of communication and understanding of why.

I'm the betrayed, but also the one in the relationship that wanted sex and was denied for a long time. I also didn't have many of my emotional needs met a lot of the time. He had the A, go figure. But as that very lonely woman who really wanted intimacy from my husband, who tried so many things to get his attention in the bedroom, who was vulnerable so many times only to get kicked again and again and then find he had been placing his focus on porn and ow, i read planc's post nodding my head. Do I just want my husbands cock to be erect on command, no, the underlying message is that I wanted him to care enough about me to want to put the effort into meeting my needs. To be a PRIORITY! Just as I want my emotional needs to be a PRIORITY. That doesn't mean I get everything all my way all the time. It just means that as a couple we can work through our issues via communication to a place that we both give enough of a shit about each other to want the other to be happy.

When you start going to the place of 'invading' 'wet hole' etc I think we devalue sex to just a physical act, when there is a lot of emotion attached for both men and women. No, neither sex should DEMAND sex, and neither should feel forced, but as planc stated, if we are always waiting for our needs to be met first before we try to meet the needs of our spouse, then what type of marriage is that? I guess I would also say, I'm not meaning during the trauma phase just after an A. Im talking about once you start to work on your marriage in true R and have decided you actually want a better one then the one before, and your partner wants the same. You can't do this kind of vulnerable shit with someone who still treats you like a 'wet hole'.

There has to be a middle ground between never saying no and never saying yes unless all your needs have been met, you've had a great 8 hours of sleep and you have no stress in your life.

Just a different POV.

PlanC,

Absolutely when my husband gets home from a 13+ hour day at work, dead exhausted from a physical job, not having slept well the previous night (or 10) because our baby was awake a lot---no, I do not expect him to meet my emotional needs and have a conversation. Nope.

My wife was LD, she had an affair, and she often gave into duty sex. I don't like duty sex but I took what I could get, especially after a week, sometimes a month, of nothing.

But here was the problem, I believe. My wife was a control freak and needed everything in order. She stressed herself out. She made herself unhappy. She would not relax until everything is done, which was never. Everything needed to be done now. And the more we accomplish around the house, the more she wanted done. The ginger bread house, the kids, the social life, it was all her facade, and her facade was never good enough. She was a black hole.

I think the difference now that we both recognize this pattern. She still gives duty sex but not as often, and I don't get angry or belittle when I don't get it. We talk about it.

The unfair part about this was that she didn't need to experience the stresses of life with the AP. Everything about that relationship was unicorns and rainbows, until I discovered it.

[This message edited by still-living at 7:54 AM, May 21st (Sunday)]

Still living... that sounds an awful lot like my story.

At what point should a man who loves his wife call it quits because duty sex is unfulfilling and ultimately a signal that the marriage is in the gutter?

At what point does a request become a pertinent request that becomes an urgent request that becomes a demand?

And let's be clear here to the folks talking about rape. Demanding sex and having someone give it does NOT amount to rape. If they said no and I took it? THAT'S rape. There is a huge difference and calling it rape is not productive. It also I think belittles the pain of those who have actually been raped. Imo

Notthevictim rape is unwanted and forced sex. I am a rape victim and in my own opinion, no it does not belittle my experiences whatsoever. It instead broadens the perspective of people who seem to believe there is a certain kind of unwanted and coerced sex that is 'okay.'