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To my understanding, this exact situation was what the original post was about - the one from OT that was t/j and made into a thread here.

I'd ask everyone to read the thread in OT, to better understand the original context. It's really not fair to take Lieswearmedown's post, which was shared in a specific context of acknowledging sexual abuse and assault, and misrepresent her this way.

I believe the problem arose because the issues with the original context, an extremely rare (for here) roundly condemned, one off reaction was being extrapolated to a bunch of different situations it did not apply too, and was closing in on being used as justification to continue to act shitty and entitled while trying to recover.

Silverhopes,

I am sorry, I never found the thread they were referring to in it's specific context. I was responding to the rant of the OP on the subject at large. I would in no way want to comment on the other situation because I don't even know what it is. There is no clarity given here to lead someone to know unless they either happened to see it or decided to investigate.

SD And HO

I'm fairly certain, when someone says some variety of "gave them their sexual best..." (This is going to be general, not everyone is a stereotype) they mean a up to that point. And they been up to that point because there is usually a large amount risk, time, and effort involved with even just getting to the point of having a lame ass quicky. It's compounded when the partner is also issuing excuses at home to avoid expending that same effort with their spouse.

So yes, in those cases the WS had given their sexual best to the AP, because even if it was just a lame ass quickie, they moved heaven and Earth to make that quickie happen.

You can't excuse what happened in reality with what you feel happened at the time. It doesn't matter, and is usually insulting to hear.

I am sorry, I don't follow your post very well. But, maybe you aren't following my post well. I am not trying to be insulting to anyone. I am certainly not insulting my husband. I am saying that it's a time to lavish your spouse with the things they need to heal. If it's flowers, it's flowers, if it's upping the sexual game and helping them understand how much you desire and love them, then it's that.

I am just genuinely expressing that 1) A WS should do this on their own 2) Coercion is going to make it worse 3) you work to address the areas you broke and help your spouse heal 4)if you can't do it willingly and with intention and enthusiasm then you might not be a candidate for reconciliation.

When I say my sexual best, I am not talking about comparing it to anything - not the pre-A marital sex, not the Affair sex, but truly and honestly the best. I am uncertain what is insulting about that? I am sorry, it's just unclear to me in your post.

I know, HikingOut. My post wasn't directed at you specifically. You just summed it up really well so I quoted your post. (((HikingOut))) I'm sorry for singling you out.

The original thread is in OT, called "Silent No More". It's a painful, powerful read.

Also, I like your posts. Xhz was saying that you post sensible things, and I'd say that's quite true. (Though he said I post sensible things too... Nope, I'm batshiet crazy! But even talkative loons deserve a voice. )

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:26 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

No worries, Silverhopes. I wasn't insulted, just really had no idea where to look for this post, especially based on this one being several days old. I will go and read it now.

And thanks. I have posted some things that ended up making no sense as well, and I have my fair share of batshit crazy. It just happens this particular topic is one that I really feel strongly about ;-)

Lieswearmedown, If I haven't already apologized then please accept my humble apologies. I must have misread your post and went off on it. I meant NO disrespect to you or as I read it now your post.

That being said this is obviously a very sore point with me. I got hammered in my divorce because my wife's antics cost me a career first and then she kicked me in the nads with this and no effort to reconcile (exit affair).

hikingout, THANK YOU!!! You actually get what ALL BH's want and need. If the BW's would quit defending the honor of all females and realise that this is what is needed then this thread would last 2 to 3 posts and everybody would say "OK what is the problem" because everybody would be on the same page. Most of the reply's are from BW's and they have that Righteous Indignation of never having cheated so they can't seem to grasp what you have said so very eloquently.

If they were a wayward with that attitude the destruction would commence. I realize that everybody thinks that everyone would think I had flipped my lid however I HAD to move 1200 + miles away anyway so what would I care what anybody there would think.

They might think I'm nuts but her life as she knew it would be over. Her life her choice. Oh just for informational purposes yes she would have known about what would happen with a no before I did it. I play my cards face up, I NEVER bluff, EVER!! If you bluff and you are called YOU LOSE! I don't enter into conflicts to lose.

JMO YMMV

I wish someone, sewardak or anyone else, would explain something that will make sense to me. How can something that, with the AP, was sexy, thrilling, fun, enjoyable, given willing again and again without any objection, suddenly become, with the BS, when the affair is exposed, a gutter act that is degrading, humiliating, horrible and completely disgusting when ask for by the BS. It doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It can also be something like, "I went to the strip club with the AP but I won't go with you because it's disgusting." If the wayward says they did X with the AP and it was painful and we never did it again. That I could understand refusing to do it ever again with anyone. But if it's like, "I gave the AP 57 blowjobs and swallowed every time but doing that with you is disgusting, humiliating, and degrading and it's my body and I refuse to do it with the BS." That clearly indicates to me that the betrayed spouse is second choice, plan B, less than the AP, not worthy to be given what the AP was freely given, and is beneath the AP in the wayward's eyes. The BS may not even want to do these things but would really like to know that the wayward would a least be willing. So please explain how acts freely and willing given to the AP suddenly becomes vile acts that is disgusting when done with the BS. Explain please. I do wish you well.

I am sorry, I don't follow your post very well. But, maybe you aren't following my post well. I am not trying to be insulting to anyone. I am certainly not insulting my husband. I am saying that it's a time to lavish your spouse with the things they need to heal. If it's flowers, it's flowers, if it's upping the sexual game and helping them understand how much you desire and love them, then it's that.

I am just genuinely expressing that 1) A WS should do this on their own 2) Coercion is going to make it worse 3) you work to address the areas you broke and help your spouse heal 4)if you can't do it willingly and with intention and enthusiasm then you might not be a candidate for reconciliation.

I agree, sorry for any confusion, both of my comments were largely about the mental gymnastics that WSs go through to try and salvage any scraps of honor lying around. That's kind of the insulting part, having to be the BS watching your WS scrounging around with excuses like, "they didn't get my best...". It's a minimization effort and usually a lie if you're looking at effort expended.

Unless the WS/AP literally fell onto the others genitals, you've already started giving that other person your best because you're expending more effort. Didn't matter if it wasn't your moral best, that's as much a song and dance as the act the WS puts on for the AP.

Most of the reply's are from BW's and they have that Righteous Indignation

If you aren't willing to get a variety of opinions on a topic you post then it's simple. Request in the topic that your only looking for responses from specific members.

The fact that you created this thread based off the thread in OT was bound to hit a nerve with many woman here, wayward or not.

And while I agree with most of what you say I am at a loss to fully understand why you would want to reinact the events your WW did with her ap. For me there's a difference between moving forward towards a new, better and authentic marriage and demanding or insisting on acts (sexual or not) where you'll never know if your wayward is doing it to avoid a D or because they really want to.

Frankly I'm of the opinion now that any and all infidelity should automatically make a marriage null and void in the eyes of the law and only through the hard work of the Ws would a D be averted (as in it takes a year of separation here before a D is granted). That time could be used for the wayward to do what's necessary to save the marriage.

I am at a loss to fully understand why you would want to [reenact] the events your WW did with her ap.

WW and her AP had sex. Are you saying the BH should not want to have sex with his WW if they R?

When I say my sexual best, I am not talking about comparing it to anything - not the pre-A marital sex, not the Affair sex, but truly and honestly the best.

hikingout, THANK YOU!!! You actually get what ALL BH's want and need. If the BW's would quit defending the honor of all females and realise that this is what is needed then this thread would last 2 to 3 posts and everybody would say "OK what is the problem" because everybody would be on the same page.

Um, I think this is EXACTLY what the BW's that you are complaining about have been saying. At least what I have been trying to say. That there should NOT be a comparison to affair sex.

What many of the BH's here have been saying is that they want what the AP got. That is comparing it to affair sex.

We can all argue about what 'best' means, I think that will be different for each person. But I DON'T think that it depends on whatever sex happened in the affair.

Note:. My phone is being a jerk. I'm having trouble so pardon any mistakes, double posts etc...

WW and her AP had sex. Are you saying the BH should not want to have sex with his WW if they R?

Not what i meant....

Tit for tat.

WW and AP had sex five times a day three Times a week so we are going to do it seven times a day every day of the week (an exaggeration but hopefully you get the point).

WW gave AP 82 BJ's. I want 96.

The one upping the Ap thing. That I don't get. Comparing yourself.to the AP. Oh We gave Ap BJ's but not me. Obviously she loves him more.

Why do we tell Bw's that her WH affair(s) weren't about her, nothing she did or didn't do, no matter how she looks, dresses, how much sex thy had etc but we tell Bh's that their manhood is on the line of they don't get more than the om?

I'm saddened that BH's feel they have to up the anti to feel important, valued, wanted, happy.

Our value, importance, happiness all comes within and we shouldn't allow another person, wife, husband, no one to make us feel less than.

My WH cheated. Oh hes had more ass then I can't count but that's because he's selfish. It has nothing to do with my worth and him fucking me like he did ow won't make me heal.

Of course this is all my opinion and I know one not wanted here so exit left stage.

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 4:37 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

and I'd say to that rideout, if my husband MADE me do something like this to stay with him as a WS, no, it was disgusting with him and I don't want to do anything disgusting with you. I'd be willing to leave so I didn't have to make any payment with my body.

it's a little bit different having your body violated then buying flowers.

But it was so disgusting, that you did it as often as you could, and with enthusiasm. And the efforts made to be able to do it were so incredibly amazing: juggling work, kids, home, and the thousands upon thousands of lies, and yet you still were able to do this 3-5 times a week, and your texts clearly show that you couldn't wait to do it again!

No.....just no.

What that tells the BH is that you like to do it, you just don't like to do it with us. What was fun with him is disgusting with us? Yeah...game over. Marriage too. Go find someone else to disrespect and shit on. I'm out.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 4:53 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

and I'd say to that rideout, if my husband MADE me do something like this to stay with him as a WS, no, it was disgusting with him and I don't want to do anything disgusting with you. I'd be willing to leave so I didn't have to make any payment with my body.

it's a little bit different having your body violated then buying flowers.

But it was so disgusting, that you did it as often as you could, and with enthusiasm. And the efforts made to be able to do it were so incredibly amazing: juggling work, kids, home, and the thousands upon thousands of lies, and yet you still were able to do this 3-5 times a week, and your texts clearly show that you couldn't wait to do it again!

No.....just no.

What that tells the BH is that you like to do it, you just don't like to do it with us. What was fun with him is disgusting with us? Yeah...game over. Marriage too. Go find someone else to disrespect and shit on. I'm out.

With all due respect, you are misrepresenting the poster’s words in the first quote. Further you added details to serve your narrative but weren’t part of the poster’s thoughts.

He/she said it was disgusting. He/she didn’t say she did it as often as possible. He she didn’t mention a frequency.

You’re taking license with someone else’s words and thoughts. You can disagree without embellishments. Just my opinion.

After reading threads like these for the last couple of years, I need to talk to my wife and tell her that I appreciate that she listened to me when I was able to share my sexual wounds and did what she could to help me sexually heal.

I'm glad that she believed me.

So I've got that going for me.

The one upping the Ap thing. That I don't get. Comparing yourself.to the AP. Oh We gave Ap BJ's but not me. Obviously she loves him more.

Because, in my personal experience, that's probably true. Speaking for myself, the more "into me" a girl was, the more the sexual menu expanded. And guys, in general, are socialized to this very early. Ohhh, she let you kiss her? She really likes you! You put your hand on her boob?? Under or over her shirt? These are real conversations that guys have, because I had them as a young man. It's how I judged how much a girl liked me, and, frankly, it's a good way to measure because, most of the time, it's true. A girl who sleeps with you DOES generally have stronger feelings for you than one who only kisses you. The girl who has anal sex with you is generally REALLY into you and wants to show you how much better she is. No, not always. But often. Add in the element of an A, and it's one of the few yardsticks that we can use to determine how serious it was. One of the questions BW's often as "Did you tell her you loved her", because, to them, that means something. I never even asked my WW, couldn't care less, because those words are meaningless to me. If you love me, show me. And the way you show me is, not entirely, but in large part, sexually. And yes, if you're sleeping with 2 guys and giving duty sex to one on a weekly basis, and wild anal sex to the other 4 times a day when you see them, guess what? I draw the conclusion that you like the 2nd guy better. And I think that's pretty universal.

He/she said it was disgusting. He/she didn’t say she did it as often as possible. He she didn’t mention a frequency.

No, the OP didn't, but the poster who said this strikes a chord with me because, that was/is exactly my situation. You hated it, but did every time he could get hard? How on earth does that make any sense? The embellishment he added made it closer to reality for at least some of us, myself included.

WW and AP had sex five times a day three Times a week so we are going to do it seven times a day every day of the week (an exaggeration but hopefully you get the point).

WW gave AP 82 BJ's. I want 96.

Yes. And yes.

Let me try to put this into less offensive terms. Your H has an A and buys the AP a 4 carat diamond ring. He got you a CZ for your wedding ring because you had no money at the time and you've always wanted a diamond, but he always said how stupid diamonds are and how used it makes him feel to buy them. Now what? He goes out and buys you a 1/4ct diamond; you gonna be happy with that? Because I wouldn't be, not if gifts is a major love language for me, because it shows me clearly that you "love her" more because you give her a better/bigger gift. The advice I would give that man is to get down to the store and get a 6ct diamond, not "explain to your wife that it makes you feel cheap and dirty. In fact, tell her about blood diamonds and just make her feel guilty about the whole thing". Which is effectively the advice that I see often handed to WW's in this situation. Yeah, you swallowed every time for OM, but hey, that was "dirty you". Just tell your H it makes you feel like a sl*t to do that, it'll make him feel awful and he won't want to do it anymore. #Winning

But it was so disgusting, that you did it as often as you could, and with enthusiasm. And the efforts made to be able to do it were so incredibly amazing: juggling work, kids, home, and the thousands upon thousands of lies, and yet you still were able to do this 3-5 times a week, and your texts clearly show that you couldn't wait to do it again!

Yup. And that's the reality here. We can setup straw men, "Well, what if the AP made her", or "What if the AP raped her" or "What if the AP was threatening to expose her" but.. The reality is this for most of us. Could not wait to do it, and did it often and with enthusiasm with the AP. And yes, I agree Golden, it's game over if this isn't brought into the marriage. And WS's, please, please, read this and understand it. You can rationalize why it shouldn't matter, you can listen to posters telling you your body/money/etc your choice. Or you can listen to people who are telling you our truth, there's no coming back from this. It's game over, sure, you can keep the good stuff between you and the OM, that's your right and your choice. But you can't do that and stay married to me. Just realize the choice your making and don't come here and say "I don't know why she won't get over it" after you give her a 1/4 ct ring and the AP a 4 ct ring. Because it's ridiculously obvious, you don't care about her as much as you did the AP. No, she won't get over it, and yes, you should call a lawyer. And don't try to rationalize it with all the talk of blood diamonds in the world, it does not, and will not matter to you BW. And, you know what? Your BW is feeling like you don't love her as much probably because you DO NOT love her as much. Not because you have an objection to diamonds, but because you don't think she's worth buying the "good ones" for. And no amount of rationalization will change those facts for her (assuming her love language is gifts, of course).

And while I agree with most of what you say I am at a loss to fully understand why you would want to reinact the events your WW did with her ap.

Depends what it is. There are only so many ways to have sex. If my W's AP was having anal and I'm not, well.. What am I supposed to do? There's only one "anal". Now, if it's something else, like going to the exact hotel room, or something like that, I understand what you're saying, why put yourself through that? But, the simple fact is, there's only so many ways to have sex. And I (and a lot of other men) really desire a few of them (and are often denied by our wives who then do those exact things with the AP). It's not like there's an "anal substitute" or some better way to end a BJ than swallowing. Nope, that's it. It's not about recreating the experience, it's about having that experience with your WS because, if you don't have it with them, you'll never have it in your entire life. Someone else will be walking around knowing how your H goes down on a woman who's not you. Because, vaginas are icky, and he doesn't like to do it, unless, of course, it's the AP's.

But it was so disgusting, that you did it as often as you could, and with enthusiasm. And the efforts made to be able to do it were so incredibly amazing: juggling work, kids, home, and the thousands upon thousands of lies, and yet you still were able to do this 3-5 times a week, and your texts clearly show that you couldn't wait to do it again!

No.....just no.

What that tells the BH is that you like to do it, you just don't like to do it with us. What was fun with him is disgusting with us? Yeah...game over. Marriage too. Go find someone else to disrespect and shit on. I'm out.

She did all that and then begged for R??? I understand that the behavior of waywards makes little sense to sane people but it boggles the mind that she'd go to all those lengths to do wild and possibly kinky stuff that she apparently loves to do and with great enthusiasm and then be willing to give it all up and beg for the chance to R.

I'm sorry for your pain, that had to be a really tough one.

I would post something on this thread but as I have been shutdown, (I am not "sensible" like hikingout, btw, which I basically posted what she posted in other threads like this) I guess I won't.

So ironic because if anyone read my thread which this is a t/j from you would realize that thread was about me, and many others, being shut down, silenced and dismissed.

Carry on!

Thank you Rideitout for addressing my posts with calmness and clarity.

For me nothing wh and OW(s) did are things I wish to do. Frankly his quickie fuck sessions and whatever...Aren't what I want in my marriage. I want the love and passion and real him. I don't feel that a wayward is being their true selves when with an AP. It's an allusion, fantasy. An escape from reality for ego kibbles and just plain selfishness.

So no I don't want what he had with them.

If my WH got non stop BJ's from his ows, which he did and he knew I hated doing it but did it because I loved him and now expects me to do it just to keep him...I'd bite it off...Lol.

I wish for all of us to find peace in this shitstorm.

OK I will explain this, Why do I want what HE got??? Because in my marriage sex was weaponized, which means it was rare and considered a giant treat every time it happened. No kinks allowed!

Women have always been the "keeper of the gates" in any relationship. Meaning if the woman say no that's it it's no. Pushing beyond no usually gets you shut off for awhile. I have ALWAYS respected a woman's right to control her body!

With HIM it was more plentiful and wide open. I later found out that she married me to "get out of the house and only intended to remain married to me for a year or so. I had 2 maybe 3 (A LARGE part of my anger!!!) children with her. I mean really who has kids with a man they planned to divorce WHEN THEY MARRIED HIM!!!

When I was in high school with all the raging hormones going my girlfriend was really into me and I KNEW that if I wanted I could make love to her (we did about everything else) but I wouldn't. Why, because I looked at making love as the greatest gift that she could possibly give me so I gave her the greatest gift that I knew how to give her and didn't . Just the way I was taught. Thinking of your partner BEFORE you think of yourself to me WAS the definition of love.

If I decided that I had to have sex with her everywhere she had sex with him I WOULD include HIS bedroom!!! I would probably go to jail for that one as I would think I should disable him enough so he could watch!! I realistically did not care where just WHAT!!

OK so this is MY hang up, I'll be OK with that. Part of this is so there are NO MEMORIES that later on she would be able to say "I didn't really like it but damn that was as wild as I ever got" with a smile on her face to! There can be NO PART of my wife that she has given to someone else while married to me that will be allowed to be withheld from me!! She is not allowed to have "private memories" with HIM!!

Jealousy? Yes sure, I go with that.

If she had actually tried and did these things with me could I have really reconciled? Probably because despite, or hell maybe because of my "personality" I am really laid back over most things. If someone comes up and insults me I'm libel to laugh, do the same thing to my wife and someone should call an ambulance NOW!!

I don't take things personally usually (one reason I'm not in jail) its water off a ducks back. However how can what your WW did not be taken personally?? It is as personal as it can get!!!

Oh I know and actually agree with the concept that none of this was actually "About Me" BUT this was only introduced to me when I joined here. So for about 38 years IT was ALL ABOUT ME!!

Just My Experience, I'm sure yours varies.

SisterMilkshake, I was the starter of this thread so if that counts for anything I would LOVE to hear from you!!! Yes we sometimes disagree but as my mom used to say "If everyone liked the same thing it would be a mighty dull world".

I have always respected your posts and agree with a lot of them (except in this area). However I would NEVER un-invite you or your comments and I am sorry that those post's were aimed at you.

Please, at my invite and pleasure, feel free to join the conversation again.

Thank you for all your contributions to all of us here at SI. Your comments, whether or not I agree with them, are ALWAYS well thought out and aimed at helping people. Your ability and wish to continue to reach out and try to help people are truly those of a caring and kind Lady.

JMO YMMV