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There is a difference between punishment and consequences.

180 is not a punishment, it is a way to help someone start focusing more on themselves. It is not done to punish the WS for betrayal. Or at least when it is it is not effective.

Writing a timeline is not a punishment. It is a way to start opening communication and building trust between the parties. A consequence to the breaking of trust that was carried out during the A. If the timeline were written in earnest by the WS and then the BS tosses it out without looking at it, that's a punishment.

Etc.

Reading this whole thread was triggery and disgusting coming from a sexual abuse survivor. You cannot force a person to do anything they don't want to do ...period! I would welcome a divorce in this case.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 1:36 PM, September 28th (Friday)]

crazyblindsided, OK your a Mad Hatter. Do you mean to tell me that if you did something in your affair with AP that you had never done with your BH (In this scenario he would not be a WH just a BH for arguments sake) When he found out about it you would not only NOT offer IT (whatever it was) to YOUR BH but would leave immediately and file for divorce because he wanted all of you too?

Or is there something I'm missing?? I mean if he asked really nice but said reconciliation rely's on it?? I don't know if you have kids or what ages they would be but imagine 2 and they are rather young. Your BH is a GREAT dad and truly loves the kids. You would rip them from him 1/2 the time and from yourself the other 1/2 the time. I mean how bad could it (whatever it is) be if you just got doing it many times with the AP??

Just want to verify that this is your position

I guess I could argue that it is just plain abuse to demand that anyone do anything they do not want to do when it comes to sex or many other things as well. Many have already argued that point, and I agree with them. But, is that really the point? forced submission?

I guess it really comes down to the question of do you want to heal the relationship, or are you just trying to get even? The reality of it is that there is no getting even, its a myth, no one ever gets even. If you are not trying to build a better relationship then the most humane thing you can do is D. Its a wife not a kid, punishment is not a healthy goal in my opinion. Consequences, yes. Consequences would be, not being trusted, having to give up some privacy, the need to put in extra effort and hard work, living with guilt, and many times D. Those are consequences of having an A.

The idea that you can demand someone to do things because they did them with someone else is not punishment, it is abuse. You can't fix a relationship this way, but you can totally destroy it.

An alternative would be say, you worked on building the relationship and restoring trust. There may come a time when she feels safe and is willing to give in to your desire for those sexual acts. She might do it then because she feels safe and wants to please you. No normal person is going to willingly give in to anything if they feel threatened or like your trying to harm them in some way. Revenge doesn't satisfy, and it if does there are issues you need to work on.

Candyman66 I wouldn't do anything that I don't want to do or feel comfortable with. I did not do anything extraordinary with my AP my WS has gotten more and them some. It's this attitude of do this or else sexually that I have an issue with.

If R depended on this something that I did not want to do then I would probably tell him to take a hike as I do now. Hell that's probably why he cheats on me. I don't give him sex 7 days a week. My WS has already put unreasonable sexual demands on me which have cause me to now have sexual aversion because I think he has a sexual addiction problem.

Would you really enjoy an act if your partner was just not that into it? I would think that would be a turnoff.

"The idea that you can demand someone to do things because they did them with someone else is not punishment, it is abuse."

thank you!

and why I would walk away if someone demanded this of me.

Is saying "if you don't do x that you did with ap, then I'm divorcing you" really abuse?

So what's the answer? Just D, but never tell her why? Wait, that's abuse too, right? D without giving a reason would be mental abuse.

So what's the answer? Force all BH to take whatever sexual scraps their WWs that obviously don't love them offer them? Bc anything else is abuse?

[This message edited by GoldenR at 4:17 PM, September 28th (Friday)]

I am not saying don’t tell her something critical.

My h said many different things at the end of the following sentences:

It hurts to think about you doing (fill in the blank)

This bothers me a lot...

I can’t believe you:

He told me how he felt. By letting me listen and actively implement solutions he allows me to show him I have empathy. By actively expressing my love I am giving him actions, and reinforcing for me that love is a verb.

This to me is what you communicate, if the person on the other end can’t find things to do to help you with these things, then of course your path to R is greatly hindered. I have asked him for guidance but the work is not on him it’s on me. And you can safely apply that to whatever it was in the A that was unequal, caused pain, needs to be addressed, etc.

OK, but let's put some teeth/practical application to this.

I guess I could argue that it is just plain abuse to demand that anyone do anything they do not want to do when it comes to sex or many other things as well. Many have already argued that point, and I agree with them. But, is that really the point? forced submission?

My wife had anal sex with the AP, always denied it to me. I found this out though investigation, and, eventually, it was confirmed. I told her it's important to me that we do that together and then drop the issue. No demands made.

But then what? Wait? Talk about it again? If so, when? 1 week, 1 month, 1 year? Wait how long? And, for me, this was a dealbreaker, so, what we're really saying is "how long will the clock tick before I file". Do I tell her "I'm going to file in 2 weeks" when she hasn't met my timeline (which I can't share because it would be a demand then)? Or do I just hit her out of the blue with it and have her crap packed one night? I can't tell her I'm doing any of this, of course, because then it crosses into a demand/compelled, and none of us want that..

So.. And this isn't said with snark, I'd really like to know, how do you approach this. Let's say, for me, after finding out, I was probably willing to wait about 3 months for her to recreate the experiences with me. So, using that as a guide, then what? What do I say/do and then, if it's not happened by 3 months, then do.. What?

if The WS gave it willingly and the BS must ask? Do you really want to stay married?

So for the BW that doesn't want D. She's isn't doing something sexually with her BH that she did with her AP. This is a deal-breaker for BH. He shouldn't even give her the option of doing it?

if The WS gave it willingly and the BS must ask? Do you really want to stay married?

But shouldn't we empathize with her? bc it was "demeaning and disgusting" when she did it with AP.

You can't have it both ways.

To infinity and beyond!

This argument will never cease.

Many betrayed wives and others will never accept coercion related to sex acts. They want to be made love to and cherished.

Many betrayed husbands and others will never accept reconciliation with a wayward wife that does more sexually with the AP than they do with them.

This can be written in stone.

Neither side will ever change unless some cataclysmic change occurs that greatly alters humanity and corresponding ideas about infidelity and sex.

OK WW3 it is. Your life your choice.

** posting as a member **

There is everything wrong with punishment in a marriage.

Well then we may as well close up the board and go home. Because 90% of what we talk about as the "right steps" to take following an A are "punishment".

Boy, I don't get that at all.

Healing for a BS involves resolving the pain of being betrayed, defining boundaries, figuring out what the s/he wants and if it's attainable, and, if R is on the table, setting requirements for R, and negotiating* what R will be with WS.

How is any of that is punishment?

* R takes 2. If the WS doesn't sign on, it won't work. If the WS 'signs on' while silently objecting to his/her BS's requirements, R probably won't work. The WS doesn't have a lot to say about the BS's boundaries and requirements, but the those of the BS are in conflict with those of the WS, R is likely to blow up. R has to be negotiated, either explicitly or tacitly.

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The 180 is definitely not punishment - it's a way for a BS who can't face D with an unremorseful WS to find and enhance the BS's own strengths, so that the BS can detach and D.

Anything else is a misuse.

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And yes, WS's do often disrespect themselves, mostly women, but some men too.

Every WS, male, female, or in between, affairs down. Doesn't that mean every WS disrespect himself?

How can a man cheat out of self-respect?

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Goldenr- by the time you have to give her the option isn’t it already too late? R by then is seriously impeded.

Rideitout- I don’t know how to answer that, because if I had given anal, and h said it hurt him because I that experience with someone else after never doing it with him well it would happen that day, that week at the latest.I would volunteer.

Current Score

Wayward Husbands accepting WWs that did more for AP.....0

Betrayed wife's that believe a woman should be required or coerced to perform sex acts she does not want to.....0

Please pass the chips or popcorn!

Goldenr- by the time you have to give her the option isn’t it already too late? R by then is seriously impeded.

I think the A impeded R more. If you're trying to R, what I'm hearing is you don't even give your WW the option of fixing the sexual imbalance.

Betrayed wives need to understand and acknowledge the pain BHs go through and the need for better sex than the AP got. BHs need to heal.

BHs need to understand it is harmful to force or intimidate others to do sex acts they do not wish to perform.

The question then is when the gift of reconciliation is offered is the requirement for sex better than the AP got and agreed to by the wayward wife coercion and therefore harmful.

I personally do not see it is if the wayward spouse wants to do it and has agreed to do it.

I also see it is the right of the betrayed spouse to divorce the wayward spouse if reconciliation requirements (whatever they maybe) are not fulfilled.