SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Tentwinkletoes,

My A was 10 years ago. The dynamics in the M were very different then. The current disrespect was not present then on his side, nor was the lack of love on both sides. The current marital problems are developments within the last couple of years, after we had been remarried for a few years and had kids. (We divorced after D-day 9 1/2 years ago.)

Having to make comparisons is not good.

But, personally, it's very hard to accept that the one thing in the world that's absolutely exclusive to my W and I, she might pine for or prefer to do with someone else. Especially when it's something I highly value and want to "be her best" at. It's the one thing that's personal and unique to me and us in our marriage.

This is my inner struggle. There should never have been anyone to compare me to. The only private area between my wife and me has been violated. Now, how is my relationship with this woman any different than with her adultery partners? As far as I know, one or more of my kids could be theirs. It makes me feel as if I am no higher on her list of men than any of her other Johns. As a matter of fact, I actually feel lower than her Johns. She risked everything to be with them, but risks nothing to be with me.

In reality, sex is sex. For me, affair sex versus married sex is almost a strange lens to look at it because it’s all just sex.

My WW has said this and I don’t understand it. To me, sex is a very personal, private activity with my wife which is reserved exclusively for me. The perspective I have at the moment is when you have multiple partners (whether before M, after M, or both), the uniqueness of that activity is lost. To analogize: I love apple pie. If I eat it every day, then whether the pie is great or not-so-great, it becomes commonplace, especially when everyone at the table also has apple pie every day. However, if when I look around the table I’m the only one who gets apple pie EVER, then I will appreciate the apple pie because I know it’s reserved just for me. I am going to feel special. An A takes that away, and I don’t know if it can be regained.

Am I living in a fantasy land here? Do all WS’s think this way? IF they do, to me it would make sense of why cheating was “allowed” in their minds. Sex is just sex. No big deal. It’s like hopscotch, changing a tire, or lying on the beach – it’s just something everyone does. So, then, what’s the point in sex, other than pro-creation? IF this is true, then who cares if it’s some other man’s baby your wife is carrying? No big deal, she just pro-creating – that’s what females do.

HELP!!

It will be intestesing to see what HikingOut thinks of sex with her AP five years from now. I know she has described it as good at the time but now sees it as gross, disgusting and humiliating. My guess is as time advances she will see it in even more negative terms including admitting that it was never good. It was always sex between two filthy liars which can never been good. In otherwords her opinion today that sex with her AP was good at the time of her affair was always part of the fantasy and is still part of the fantasy. In objective reality sex can never be good, great or the best ever between selfish, self-centered, immoral, filthy, liars which describes all people in affairs.

So ALL A sex is bad according to you. This is projection on your part.

You do realize that many affairs are never discovered. The APs take their secrets to the grave. Perhaps then they are discovered by spouses left behind, perhaps they are hidden forever.

In those cases, there is not the dynamic you have in your marriage. There is no hurt BS, no reconciliation, because the BS doesn't know. Some WS are very good at compartmentalizing.

You know that animals have sex too? Do you think they enjoy it? Some animals mate life long, some only come together to mate. It runs the gamut. So do people.

My sex in my marriage was OK. It is better with my GF. My xW was not cheating to my knowledge in the marriage. It was still OK marriage sex. Could have been better. But there was no infidelity involved. Sex can be OK, even bad, in marriages for other reasons.

I am glad you have found your route, but you are edging towards dogmatism at this point.

Being disgusted by the thought of previous affair sex doesn't make the memories go away of of how the wayward felt about it at the time.

They'll always remember loving it and being excited to have sex again. And if it actually was the best ever, they'll remember that as well.

Remorse doesn't change what it was at that time. Neither does disgust over the act.

Striver

Yes, all affair sex is bad sex after the wayward experiences remorse and sees the truth that both parties involves were selfish, self-centered, immoral, filthy liars destroying their spouses and the spouses of their affair partner while trading their bodies for kibbles and risking their spouses sexual health by fucking with no condemn.

All affair sex is bad sex because both parties involved are disgusting, filthy people.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 1:44 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

GoldenR

You don't understand remorse and what is actually does to the wayward once they experience it. It is a change of personality caused by contrition that makes them see themselves and their affair differently. It is a spiritual rearrangement of their personality.

Remorse makes the wayward see someone they once thought they loved as repulsive.

Remorse makes the wayward see sex with their AP that they once thought as good as repulsive.

Remorse destroys the fantasy of the affair including emotional and sexual fantasy of the affair.

Sex between affair partners is sex between two selfish, self-centered, immoral, filthy, liars destroying their spouses. Sex between these two people is never objectively good. It is objectively disgusting, repulsive and evil. Remorse shines the light of truth on the affair for the wayward.

Actually, I would suggest that if they don't see their AP and sex with their AP as repulsive they haven't yet experienced remorse.

Understanding remorse has dick all to do with what I posted. And assuming I don't understand remorse is a big fucking assumption on your part.

Nothing you said contradicts what I said and vice versa.

If they loved it then they loved it. Remorse doesn't change how they felt at the time. Nor does being disgusted with what they did.

They still know that they loved it at that time.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 1:44 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

Golden

No. Remorse changes subjective reality to objective reality by changing the personality of the wayward. The new personality created by remorse never loved sex with their AP in fact they are disgusted by it.

Objective reality is that all affair sex is disgusting, repulsive and gross because it is between two people who are selfish, self-centered, immoral, filthy, impure, evil and willing to destroy their spouses and the spouses of their affair partner. A remorseful spouse will see their affair sex in this light RETROACTIVELY due to their personality change.

All positive memories the wayward had of the affair sex and even the entire affair will be obliterated by this personality change.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 2:06 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

My remorseful wife assures me that she didn't seek it out, she didn't want it, she didn't enjoy it, she wishes it never happened. All of which seems to me like she has re-framed it all in context to realising that I have reached my limit and she is facing the very real prospect of divorce. In my mind though her feelings now don't change the fact that when given a choice she decided sleeping with some random scuz bag (without a condom) was worth more than eighteen years of marriage. She swears she didn't choose anything, she wasn't thinking at all, it didn't mean anything. The usual cheater's script basically.

Stumblingon

Is showing signs of real remorse and doing everything possible to make amends to you by being the best wife possible ?

How long ago was Dday ?

How long was her affair ? How many times did she have sex with him ?

Are you both seeing psychologists ?

My wife changed her whole life around when she knew I was going to divorce her. She even got sober from alcoholism by going to AA.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 2:12 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

How they now see it doesn't change how they felt about it at the time. You can't change a fact. The fact is that they enjoyed it at the time. Nothing can change that fact.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 2:13 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

...while destroying her husband, her family, her APs wife and their family.

I don't think my fWW ever completely understand the impact she and her AP had on the lives around them. If she did, she never showed it to me.

Golden

The new personality created by remorse didn't even exist at the time the wayward was having sex with their filthy, lying, disgusting affair partner.

JMO coming ...

People here hate the hard line but it works. Stand up for yourself, stand up for yourself.

I'm surprised you say that, since many of us say, in essence, that the best way out of infidelity is to stand up for yourself - figure out what you want, 2) figure out if it's accessible and 3) go for it.

That does NOT mean 'threaten.' Threats don't work. Bluffs are dishonest and bad for the BS, even if a bluff succeeds.

It means figure out what you want and go for it - in your way, on your timeline, using your strategy.

Threats and bluffs see recovering from infidelity in a competitive framework - but recovery isn't competitive. Your recovery is essentially totally in the individual's hands. A WS can help or hinder a BS, but the BS controls his own recovery, irrespective of what the WS does.

The WS becomes relevant if the BS wants to consider R or if the BS wants R. But the most important tasks for the BS are 1) to process the anger, grief, fear, and shame out of his body and 2) to figure out what he wants.

R(ecovery) isn't BS -OR- WS. It's BS -AND- WS - separately. Individually. On their own paths.

Both partners have to stand up for themselves for R(econciliation) to work well.

Attractiveness makes a big difference for me, frame of mind is important, lead up to the sex matters..

Research indicates that attractiveness for college students is crucial, until the students get to know each other. Then personality an shared interests, experiences, and values become more important in choosing dates.

If it were the case (that the sex was better with OM), I would want to know that from my WW. Yes, I might D because of it…. This is the kind of thing that gives people like me immense fear.

Wow. So the least competition gets you to leave the field? You compete(d) for new women, who had no one knows who many partners, but you won't for your WW, whose number you know?

That doesn't make sense. And while logic alone won't get you through recovery, d-day and its aftermath for years, recovery goes better when one's logic is sound....

My W was honest - she said she found the first few sexual sessions beyond description. That's 4, RIO, who admit the sex was special. (Admittedly, though, the sex she had made her an outlier, and I certainly could not have competed even if I wanted to.) After that, she says, it morphed into a chore - and she states explicitly she was in it for the kibbles and the 'rewards' that accrue to KISAs.

But honesty was especially important to us - The sex would - not could - have meant D, if my W were gay. But D wouldn't have been punishment; rather it would have freed both of us to be true to ourselves - to stand up for ourselves.

BTW, it's clear that some - NOT ALL - people choose D because they are afraid to stay on the field and work to R.

It's not a competition unless you make it one. If you frame your recovery as going for the best possible outcome for yourself - that is, going for what you want, within the constraint of what is possible - you stop yourself from competing with the aps.

Then, if R doesn't succeed, it's not because of any failing in the BS. Rather, it's due to a failing in the WS or a bad fit between fBS and fWS.

Sex between two such people is gross and repulsive because both people are gross and repulsive during the affair. If you do not see sex with your AP in these terms then you do not understand remorse.

It may be hard to accept, but aps are people. Our WSes are probably aps. They don't handle feelings well and they weren't thinking well around their As, but ... the brilliant and apparently charismatic Steven Hawking was a WS.

Above all, WSes are eminently redeemable, if they are willing to do the work.

And honesty is required for redemption.

IMO, logic dictates accepting what a person says, unless there are specific reasons to doubt that specific person or claim. if a WS says the sex was blah, I'll accept it, unless there are specific reasons to doubt that specific WS.

I want honesty from my W. If she pretends or just lies about the good sex, if it was good, that's when I'll have a problem with her.

Along with what DF says, I'm grateful for the food I have now. It doesn't make me want one of the great meals I've had in the past. There's more to a great M than sex.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:13 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

It still doesn't change what happened or how they felt at that time. Nothing can change that.

By your theory, if her new personality wishes it were so hard enough, then she could make it so that she never even had the affair.

their filthy, lying, disgusting affair partnet

You realize that this description applies to her as well, right?

Golden

Absoltely. My wife and and all affair partners are selfish, self-centered, filthy, lying, immoral kibble whores until they become remorseful. My wife would admit all of this without hesitation.

Wow. So the least competition gets you to leave the field? You compete(d) for new women, who had no one knows who many partners, but you won't for your WW, whose number you know?

No.. Unfair competition gets me to leave the field. And, at least for me personally, my competition wasn't conducted fairly. I can't go boxing and expect to win with 2 arms tied behind my back. And that's what I'd be asked to do if my WW would have kept all the "good stuff" sexual acts between her and the AP. Let's make this a little less offensive and say imagine my wife never let me go down on her. She then let the AP, and proceeded to have multiple orgasms (which, in this hypothetical, she never had with me). Well, this competition isn't fair. There's no way I can "measure up" there, because I'm not playing by the same rules.

In my case, I feel lucky. The AP wasn't some greek god, or some sexual stud. But, if he were, I'd have this same feeling even without the added "acts". There's no way I can compete with the excitement of an A, the illicit nature of it, the danger. I mean, maybe, if I were in this situation, and my WW was willing to further into the "danger zone" sexually.. Maybe I'd feel like I had some hope. But, making this a bit funny, if she and her AP had anal sex in Central Park at noon while another woman went down on her, while tied up and blindfolded, well... Unless the AP was impotent, ridiculously tiny/huge or too fast on the gun, I'd feel kind of like.. Well, there's no further we can push it. That will always be the "best" and most extreme sex she'd ever have, I can't compete, because, even if we did exactly the same thing, I wouldn't have the "AP factor" adding danger, excitement, newness and the "this is so wrong" aspect to it.

A different woman, I wouldn't have this problem. I'd be the "new person". I would have the upper hand compared to her other sex partners. It would be me who determined if I was the best or not, not the fact that I was hog tied on the starting line.

The "new/forbidden" sex aspect of an A, at least for me, would add a whole lot of "good sex" points to the encounter for me. A woman who might only rate a 5 in bed would get the "AP put", and wind up a 10 simply because of the other aspects of the relationship. But if she's a 10 already? Well, if the scale only goes 1-10, we have a problem here. Because even if my wife is already a 10, the AP would be a 10+. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure my W's AP wasn't a 10. So I have some room for improvement. But, if he was... Well, we have situations like that here, the W is sleeping with a 6'5" ripped personal trainer with a face of an angel and doing ever act imaginable with him.. IDK what you do with that one. I'd compete for my W in the dating market against that guy, but, competing against him when he has the "affair put"? Seems kind of like spotting Ben Johnson 10 yards. Yes, I think I'm good, but I'm not that good. In fact, I'm not sure anyone is that good.

Not sure why but I have Milwaukee on my Mike....uhmm, I mean "mind"

Sisoon

You quoted RIO who said:

"If it were the case (that the sex was better with OM), I would want to know that from my WW. Yes, I might D because of it…. This is the kind of thing that gives people like me immense fear."

Then you said:

"Wow. So the least competition gets you to leave the field?"

I am with RIO on this one. If my wife could not have convinced me that sex with her AP was not better than sex with me I would have divorced her.

At the time of my wife's affair I was a man in great physical shape with a very nice income who would have had no problem attracting a younger, attractive woman who did not fuck other men while she was traveling on business. I would never have wasted a second of my life competing with other men for my cheater wife who at the time ate too much, weighed too much and drank too much.

After the affair is not the time for the betrayed to compete for the wayward.

After the affair is time for the wayward to compete for the betrayed spouse and earn them back.