SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

CreateAccount,

Ten years ago, at the time I cheated, the marital dynamics were very different than they are now. We were divorced in the interim and remarried for reasons that are not germane to this topic. But my current marriage has nothing to do with the decade ago that I was a cheater.

I just think sometimes the perception of some people on this site is if you aren't saying it was really just totally awesome sex then you must be downplaying it. In reality, sex is sex.

Not entirely. I would say that some people have totally awesome sex (better than sex at home) in an A. What percentage? No idea. But it's not 0. It might be 10% or 90% or any number in between. But, for perhaps the first time I've seen, we have a poster who came out and said "it was better in the A" (thank you!), so we hopefully all agree, this isn't a ridiculous fear, it's a realistic fear. Now, should it matter, should I waste brain cells wondering? I'm not sure I can answer that question, (well, I can answer the 2nd, NO, I should not be wasting brain cells wondering, because I shouldn't be in this situation at all!). But, personally, it's very hard to accept that the one thing in the world that's absolutely exclusive to my W and I, she might pine for or prefer to do with someone else. Especially when it's something I highly value and want to "be her best" at. It's the one thing that's personal and unique to me and us in our marriage.

RIO, the reason I simply replied “yes” in response to your question of “has there ever been a WS who....” was because I have said this before on SI. Many times, I believe, in 9 1/2 years of membership. Today is not the first time ever.

I just think sometimes the perception of some people on this site is if you aren't saying it was really just totally awesome sex then you must be downplaying it. In reality, sex is sex.

Not entirely. I would say that some people have totally awesome sex (better than sex at home) in an A. What percentage? No idea. But it's not 0. It might be 10% or 90% or any number in between. But, for perhaps the first time I've seen, we have a poster who came out and said "it was better in the A" (thank you!), so we hopefully all agree, this isn't a ridiculous fear, it's a realistic fear. Now, should it matter, should I waste brain cells wondering? I'm not sure I can answer that question, (well, I can answer the 2nd, NO, I should not be wasting brain cells wondering, because I shouldn't be in this situation at all!). But, personally, it's very hard to accept that the one thing in the world that's absolutely exclusive to my W and I, she might pine for or prefer to do with someone else. Especially when it's something I highly value and want to "be her best" at. It's the one thing that's personal and unique to me and us in our marriage.

I wasn't really pointing at you or anyone in specific thinking that. In fact, you have kind of said you don't really believe that. But, I have been a WS on this site for something like 27 or 28 months. I can't tell you how many times it's been said to me "Of course you are not going to say it was the best ever. You can't say that and reconcile" or been accused of outright lying.

I think it's a much healthier viewpoint to see it as yes, some might have thought it was the best, some might have thought it was good, some might have thought it was okay, and some might have thought it even sucked. Because it's sex. And, we have all had different degrees of sex, and we've all had different reasons behind that.

In terms of hindsight, I agree you can't really look at it without seeing it through the lens of your BS if you have true remorse. You can't look at it with any kind of beauty of kindness because you hate that it happened, you know it was disgusting, and you feel humiliation if you have any visual memory of it. I think after some point in time you start talking about it from a factual or clinical aspect as you don't want to really go back to that place in your head in totality again. There is nothing good about it. But, to me, I still know what I thought at the time, I haven't re-written history. You know both things at once.

DarknessFalls

You stated that sex with your AP was better than sex with your husband.

I am saying that all affair sex is between two selfish, self-centered, filthy, disgusting, destructive liars with no integrity. Sex between two such people is gross and repulsive because both people are gross and repulsive during the affair. If you do not see sex with your AP in these terms then you do not understand remorse.

CreateAccount,

OK.

In terms of hindsight, I agree you can't really look at it without seeing it through the lens of your BS if you have true remorse. You can't look at it with any kind of beauty of kindness because you hate that it happened, you know it was disgusting, and you feel humiliation if you have any visual memory of it. I think after some point in time you start talking about it from a factual or clinical aspect as you don't want to really go back to that place in your head in totality again. There is nothing good about it. But, to me, I still know what I thought at the time, I haven't re-written history. You know both things at once.

This makes complete sense to me. Had I not been in the state of mind I was in with my DDay hookup, that sex would have been outstanding. It was raw and wild and would have been something I'd have gone back for had I just been a single woman looking for a hookup instead of a damaged robot on DDay. Perspective is everything. I could still find that guy and go back for more, but I have no desire to because it was a time of pain and damage that I have no interest in revisiting. That sex with that guy is forever verboten to me due to circumstances.

RIO, the reason I simply replied “yes” in response to your question of “has there ever been a WS who....” was because I have said this before on SI. Many times, I believe, in 9 1/2 years of membership. Today is not the first time ever.

I appreciate it, even if you've been saying it for awhile, I just never noticed or saw it. But I appreciate your honesty, and also keeping me from thinking I'm totally nuts in holding the belief that it "can be" better.

You can't say that and reconcile" or been accused of outright lying.

I do not think you're lying HO. But I do think that the statement above is more true than false. That would be a difficult thing to say and R, no matter if it's true or not. And that's the fundamental problem, people telling the truth (you) are lumped into the same group that we know exists of people who are lying because, well, what you said above.

I think it's a much healthier viewpoint to see it as yes, some might have thought it was the best, some might have thought it was good, some might have thought it was okay, and some might have thought it even sucked.

This is without question the "right" answer. Could have been better, could have been the same, could have been worse, and could have been so bad you'd rather be getting a root canal. All, without question, have happened in affairs. Not every AP is a sex god/goddess, and not every AP is a total dud in bed. I have no doubt, from our discussions about this, you enjoy sex with your H more than the AP, but.. And this is the big "but".. You have no reason to lie to me. You have lots of reasons, however, to lie to your H about the same question. I'm not going to care very much if you said "it was incredible", to him, it would probably be a moral blow. And that's really it, my cheating friends have little reason to lie to me when they describe their sexual escapades and/or the "awesome" of the AP. They have millions (literally) of reasons to lie to their wives about the same information (and I'm sure they do, they would NOT be married if their wives heard the version they gave me).

that sex would have been outstanding.

And now we have a 2nd one. Thank you for the honesty as well, but, perhaps now you're seeing the problem. Here are 2 women who've now revealed "outstanding" sex (or would have been)/better than sex. Who share one common thread, they are D/separated and no longer have any reason to lie. Not calling you 2 out directly, but do you think that would be something you'd share here if you're tagline was "Happily R'ed"? Not speaking to you specifically, but, in general, I doubt it. Is it a change of perspective or a change of the narrative?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:43 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

RIO,

I am married to the H I cheated on. We remarried 2.5 years after the divorce.

RideItOut

I don't think either of the waywards you are citing are remorseful. If they were remorseful they would see their sexual encounters differently. They would see them like HikingOut who seems to be remorseful. She used words like "humiliating" and "disgusting" in her most recent posts.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 10:39 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

It's not lost on me why people think it's a lie.

But, it really goes back to the motivation for the affair. I mean, you could be motivated by having sex with someone else. I believe that exists. Or you might have gone into the affair motivated by something else but the sex worked out and was amazing.

But, there is just no way of knowing one person from another. For me, I had good sex at home. What I was seeking was the ability to play a role in which I am a vibrant, desireable women. I also had KISA issues, and that brings in the "I am so much better because I do this" kind of thoughts. It's complete self-adulation. In the end the AP really mattered none. Noone mattered, it was all what I was playing out in my head. That is where so much of the affair happens.

People often say "well why do you go back for more?" because the trajectory of whatever *it* is that is that you are seeking, you just keep seeking more of it. And, sex becomes part of that because it's what people do in relationships. I know now the only relationship I was having was in my head. And, in reality, I didn't ever go back for more sex, the A ended quickly. But, had it continued I would have had more sex but not because the sex itself would have kept me coming back for more, but because I wasn't done living out what I was living out in my head. It's a very illogical distorted rabbit hole that affairs are conducted in.

And, I also believe that to move forward you can't have secrets with your spouse. If the AP was better at anything or worse, or there were things I specifically liked...all of that has been divulged to my husband. Painting a downplayed picture would have been keeping a secret, and I don't want that. I want true intimacy, I want for him to move forward because he wants to not because I lied to or manipulated him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:43 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

If they were remorseful they would see their sexual encounters differently.

I'm sure they would "see it" differently. But what's the REAL answer? There is an answer here, it's not all perception. Sure, I can choose to see the negative consequences associated with great sex I had in the past and focus on them. Probably can even make myself feel bad about the sex if I try hard enough. But does that change the subjective experience at the time? Does it change the experience I had sexually? Or am I just inserting the "right" memories over the "real" memories.

You can know something was awful for you, you can regret doing it, but you can still say "But that was amazing/best ever". Those are all valid and consistent viewpoints.

You can know something was awful for you, you can regret doing it, but you can still say "But that was amazing/best ever". Those are all valid and consistent viewpoints.

I think I agree with this to a certain extent. It's as I said, I see it with the lens of remorse and wish it never happened. But, I still know what I thought at the time or the mindset I was in. You know both things. It's more that because of the remorse and work does on oneself that blocks any chance of fantasizing it or continuing the affair mentally. It breaks that spell so to speak and allows you to go back fully into the marriage.

Without remorse, secretly holding fond feelings for the AP in anyway means you can't give yourself back fully to your spouse or marriage because you will always leave the AP having pieces of you.

Hiking,

See and that’s the thing. Knowing past sex was subjectively “good sex,” that does not necessarily equal fantasizing about it or reminiscing about it. To use one of RIO’s famous food analogies, I can think back to that one time I was at a really great restaurant and had a great steak. I can remember it, and if I were asked about it, I could answer that yes, it was the best steak I ever had. But every time I sit down to eat dinner, I’m not fantasizing about that steak. After I eat my dinner, I’m not saying to myself, “Damn, I wish I’d had that steak instead.” I don’t even think about that steak in day-to-day life. If someone asks me about XYZ Steakhouse, yeah, my mind will go back to it and intellectually I’ll remember that I had a good meal there, but it’s not going to bring back an emotionally or physically stimulated response and cause me to care one way or the other about that steak anymore except that it tasted good.

Oh DF I wasn’t arguing that either. I agree with you on that. But the point I was making was more to bridge the difference between what OP and RIO was saying. Their points were both valid.

Everyone’s point is valid. I don’t disagree with people who want their spouse to think of them as the best or repudiate opinions about prior partners or whatever. Everyone has the right to their own priorities and preferences.

I am in agreement with HO that the affair is all fantasy. The entire affair is fantasy. All of it. Every last little bit of it from beginning to end including the sex. I say this because the affair including the sex is based on lies.

The truth is that both parties in the affair are selfish, self-centered, filthy, disgusting, destructive liars with no integrity. Sex between these two people can never be objectively good because it it not objectively honest.

Imagine the wayward being honest with themselves in the middle of sex with their affair partner. They would have to admit that with every thrust they are destroying their spouse. They are destroying their own integrity. They are having sex with a filthy liar with no integrity who is probably married and destroying their spouse. Sexual affairs are between two people with no integrity. None.

Imagine a female wayward telling herself the truth during sex with her affair partner: This filthy liar's penis is inside of me. He is married to another woman and I am fucking him because I am so desperate for kibbles I will do almost anything including trade my body for kibbles like a prostitute trades her body for money. I know what I am doing is wrong. It goes against everything I was taught as a child and everything I believe as a human being. If my husband saw me doing this it would destroy him. I am not using a condemn because I dont give a fuck about my husband's sexual health. I am going to do anything and everything my AP wants sexually even if it is degrading and I dont want to do it because I want him to keep coming back. These are the things I have denied my husband but I will do it for my AP because I am so desperate for kibbles I will do literally anything for him including sell out my dignity.

In the affair fantasy ( subjective reality ) sex may have been good, great or the best ever.

After remorse sets in the wayward will see the sex as the worst thing they ever did in their lives.

Objectively ( after remorse ) selfish, self-centered, filthy, disgusting, destructive liars with no integrity do not have good, great or the best sex ever.

[This message edited by CreateAccount197 at 11:57 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]

And now we have a 2nd one. Thank you for the honesty as well, but, perhaps now you're seeing the problem. Here are 2 women who've now revealed "outstanding" sex (or would have been)/better than sex. Who share one common thread, they are D/separated and no longer have any reason to lie. Not calling you 2 out directly, but do you think that would be something you'd share here if you're tagline was "Happily R'ed"? Not speaking to you specifically, but, in general, I doubt it. Is it a change of perspective or a change of the narrative?

I don't know. In my case, I was reacting to finding out that my XWH had cheated numerous times with numerous people, so it isn't the same as it would have been had I dealt the first strike. I was more honest than I maybe would have been otherwise with him because part of me gave no fucks whatsoever how much it hurt him. And if he had left me over it, that would have been perfectly cool with me too. So I just didn't care enough to lie, know what I mean? I was honest in that it wasn't a good experience because nothing could have been good that day. I was honest in telling him that if I had met that guy when single, it would have been really good sex. I was even honest enough to tell him how fucking pissed off I was that I hadn't been able to enjoy that experience like he enjoyed his cheating because after the shit he did to me, I deserved one moment of enjoyment at least.

But I would have been okay if he had packed his shit and left, so I had little motivation to lie and soothe his feelings.

Darkness falls....correct me if I'm off the ball here.

But it appears there are deep issues within your marriage and both spouses are unhappy I've picked up a lack of disrespect towards you, which obviously does not justify the affair but has affected your feelings towards your spouse over a long time. You also no longer love him and stay for the kids. Clearly you should've still not had an affair but that was how you chose to act out this unhappiness....just a stab in the darkness mind here...if you're that seriously unhappy is it possible you trash the current perception of the marriage to allow yourself to go back there with the ex...yes of course it is...do you romanticize the old ex...of course you will. This is all basic dynamics of an affair. Only what strikes me is despite being caught you and your bh still dont love each other. You have utter contempt and disgust for him, when it's your who's wronged him. There may be reasons for that but it is not the natural response to hurting someone. You have not had that jerk reaction to save your marriage. It is a marriage of convenience. For the kids. And as admirable as that is it's an unusual situation because it's like an exit affair without exiting. There is little to no remorse when you dont actually regret what you did. Perhaps you regret your own physical action of cheating but I get the feeling you actually cant stand your spouse and feel no remorse towards him. While you disrespect and dislike him so much I think it's hard to have genuine remorse and perhaps in some ways he doesnt deserve it? I dont know the exact history of your marriage. But its quite toxic. I'm in no way judging what's happening between you I'm just calling it how I see it. The way you speak about him I'd be mistake for you being the BS to be honest. Theres clearly a deep issue there.

Now the flip side you've disrespected him. You've cheated on what was probably an already broken marriage. There is zero love lost on his side. Perhaps this was just perhaps confirmation he needed it's over...once the kids are old enough?

This is an extremely broken situation. And I think this is why there is little change to your recall and reflection of the situation. As your marriage has declined further and your view of bh has too your positive thoughts of your ex and A has been allowed to remain as your escape and fantasy. You have no reason to feel bad or guilty for doing so as your bh wants nothing from you. So you're free to indulge in a wayward way of thinking freely such as holding the affair and ap in high regard. There is no shame or guilt for you. Rightly or wrongly.

Most ws's with your perspective would just never find their way onto SI because the lack of remorse means they just dont want to be fixed or understand it. I'm assuming the fact you are here you do dislike some aspect of your actions but for your reasons remain in the marriage with someone you dont want to find remorse for, but have remorse in some sense for yourself and your actions?

I really think you are in quite a unique outlook for giving a perspective and while its valid and realistically may be the perspective of alot of waywards its hopefully a less common perspective of waywards on this site or bws other half here, because we are trying to live with accountability remorse etc. Most of the waywards involved in the site and off it actually are sorry (prob not all remorseful) and do love their spouse and do want to fix it. So I'd not be surprised if their reflection is noticeably different to yours. I think its sensible to note the different perspective but also to realise there is a different set of circumstances behind it and why that might be different.

Rio

DevestatedDee just took herself off your list of two waywards.

It will be intestesing to see what HikingOut thinks of sex with her AP five years from now. I know she has described it as good at the time but now sees it as gross, disgusting and humiliating. My guess is as time advances she will see it in even more negative terms including admitting that it was never good. It was always sex between two filthy liars which can never been good. In otherwords her opinion today that sex with her AP was good at the time of her affair was always part of the fantasy and is still part of the fantasy. In objective reality sex can never be good, great or the best ever between selfish, self-centered, immoral, filthy, liars which describes all people in affairs.