SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's been 6 weeks since I last posted. The overwhelming comments encouraging D from my last post discouraged me, I wasn't ready to consider divorce as an option. I have since begun working with my IC to paint a picture of my life where I would be ok with or without my WW. Focusing on myself, and either choosing to pursue R or choosing to D. I'm closer to that place, but I still have great reservations.

Today things came the closest to a decision point that they have so far.

I asked my wife to move out today.

She has spent the past few months sleeping in the guest room, and would stay with me a few nights a week usually when we had a good day or two in a row rugsweeping and not talking about her A.

We had a disagreement last night. I asked my WW why she hasn't shown any effort to open up to me since I told her I need her to do more for me on Sunday 12/1.  She said it was because she doesn't know what I need from her. I told her I need to feel love from her, and when she doesn't share about her feelings of her affair that I feel like she is hiding something from me or deciding how much I need to know about her affair. She said she feels that I'm conflicted about staying or going, and that she doesn't open up to me because she "doesn't feel safe".

I remind her that I had worked hard all week to be loving and affectionate to her, creating a safe place for her but that she just won't open up. I explained to her specific things I need from her, the things I have been waiting for her to do to help me heal.  She laughs out loud at me when begin to list these things - it has been a common occurrence for her to laugh when telling me things like "I swear I've told you everything I did with AP" or laughing when saying things like "I promise I'm telling the truth". I have told her how this makes me feel like she is lying when she laughs like this and how it makes me feel terrible. I storm off and go to bed angry.

Flash forward to this morning. We don't speak directly while getting the kids ready for the day. I'm teleworking but I drop youngest at preschool before starting my work day. I come home at 9:30am and we have the house without kids during the day for the first time in weeks and she's upstairs getting ready from showering, doing laundry, whistling and in chipper mood. I continue working until about 11 when she asks if we can hang out. We each take turns pretending to be busy for the next 45 minutes avoiding each other in plain sight.

It comes to a head at 11:45am. She asks what's going on with me and I tell her I'm tired of waiting for her to show any actions to help me heal or any signs of remorse. I just blurt it out - "It's time for you to move out. You don't feel safe here so let's find a place for you to live that you feel safe".

I hadn't planned on saying this at all, it came out of nowhere. She looks incredulous and says she's been trying and showing me as much as she can but doesn't know what I need. I tell her that I can only believe her actions not her words, and that she has not shown any actions.

WW reiterates that she doesn't know what I need from her. She starts crying, I think initially it feels artificial to me.  This is the first time she's cried to me about her affair, it's been over 4 months since Dday.  I feel her tears are for her, not for me.  That she's crying only because she's afraid to experience the consequences.

She begs me not to make her move out and asks for more time to show me remorse. I tell her she can continue to work on showing remorse while living somewhere else. She states that if she moves out then we will get divorced.  I tell her that moving out doesn't mean we will get divorced to me. That it means to me that she can continue to help me recover while living somewhere else. But I tell her that if we get divorced I will accept that and promise to be fair to her.

I tell her I will pay for 6 months for her to rent an apartment (Jan 1 - June 30). Tell her about all the furniture we can move into the place for her to be comfortable. She says she doesn't want kids to find out.  I tell her it will be hard but she can work to conceal it by leaving after they go to sleep and showing up early before they wake.

Her crying becomes much more realistic to me, she begs me dozens of times not to do this. I reiterate that her moving out doesn't mean divorce to me. I tell her that I think she needs a wake-up call to work hard for me and that this is it.

She retreats to the couch and leaves me in the kitchen. She eventually retreats upstairs to the guest bedroom, I go pick up youngest from preschool at 1pm.

When we return home, she puts our youngest down for a nap. At 2pm she tells me she is "stepping out for a bit". I make a snide comment to say "You going to go meet up with (AP)? Tell (AP) I said hi and thanks for ruining our lives!". While gone I see that she talked to her dad for an hour (1 of the 2 people she has told about her A since August) and after that she called a Divorce Attorney, presumably to leave a message since it was late afternoon on a Friday.

I feel that I have the upper hand now for the first time in a long time, that maybe, just maybe it has gotten through to her that I need her to help me. But I'm afraid that I just pushed her over the edge and beyond any hope to work on things for me. She has been despondent since returning home, ignoring my efforts to talk to her which has driven me to make more snide comments eluding to us splitting up.

I'm torn between regret of asking her to move out and hope that this might be the kick in the ass she needs to start putting real effort into helping me heal. I'm scared. I'm not as confident about living without her but don't want to retreat now that I've played the card.

I feel weak, I want her to come back to me and beg me to reconsider. I even drafted up the conditions or "boundaries" that if she agreed to do I would reconsider asking her to leave. But so far she has simply retreated, put up a wall from me and is acting like I'm not in the room. She's watching a movie with the kids now and I feel like she's putting me into one of her compartments that she buries and pretends does not exist.

I'm worried I will break tonight and say/do something that will cause me to lose the leverage I feel that I have gained today. Looking for words of encouragement or advice in how to play this. The weekend is just starting and it's going to be full days of pretending everything is ok in front of the kids and then I fly out for a work trip on Monday-Wednesday.

I know this sounds pathetic, but I didn't plan on dropping this bomb today and now that I did I'm not sure whether to try and diffuse it by conceding to her I was angry when I asked her to move out or if I should let things play out to see what happens. Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

I explained to her specific things I need from her, the things I have been waiting for her to do to help me heal. She laughs out loud at me when begin to list these things - it has been a common occurrence for her to laugh when telling me things like "I swear I've told you everything I did with AP" or laughing when saying things like "I promise I'm telling the truth". I have told her how this makes me feel like she is lying when she laughs like this and how it makes me feel terrible. I storm off and go to bed angry.

Dude, that's messed up beyond words. Laughing? Is she BPD or NPD maybe? I don't know, but it's worth asking. This is really messed up.

She's been a very determined rugsweeper who has never, IMHO, understood the magnitude of what she's done. If you back down now, you'll only be reinforcing her belief that you can be maneuvered. Although, I'll be quite honest with you... if she was calling an attorney, her most likely question was "can he kick me out?". The answer in most jurisdictions is 'no'. But that tells you something too, doesn't it?

I'd up the ante and tell her she'll need to get a job too, just in case the separation doesn't turn out to be an effective motivator for her. You've been super nice during this whole disaster. But where has it got you?... four months in and she's laughing when you try to engage her in discussion.

As an aside... keep the snide remarks under you lid. Believe me, we ALL understand how hard it is to do. But she'll take you more seriously if you're calm and determined.

Strength to you.

That was a very hard read, I'll try to be brief, facts: your WW cheated on you and has NOT done ANYTHING to help you heal, so far she has NOT have to deal with any CONSEQUENCES for her huge betrayal and is literally LAUGHING at you and now even ignoring you, instead she even went to a D attorney.

You have tried desperately to nice her back in the M (which NEVER WORKS) and hope she shows regret/remorse and based on what you posted she has not shown an ounce of them and simply wants you to rugsweep the whole thing and not do anything whatsoever, which by the way is a recipe for disaster as we've seen play out here THOUSANDS of times over and over again.

You've tried your way and it didn't work, now here on SI our goal is to help you get out of infidelity and limbo (which is by far the worst), there are two options, D or R, for R to even have the possibility at being a successful one, you need a REMORSEFUL WW WILLING to do the work and heavylifting to help restore the M she destroyed with her huge betrayal, right now she's not even remotely close to that by a very very long shot, as a matter of fact she's laughing at you, therefore what's left is the other logical option, filing for D, it takes a long time and if (and that's a big if) she comes around before it's final and does the work, maybe then and only then should you consider offering the gift of R, or NOT !, by that time you might have changed your mind and not offer it at all, and that's OK too, cheaters are NEVER entitled to a second chance, either way you will eventually move out of infidelity and limbo.

So to recap I would suggest you beat her to the punch and have her served D papers without warning and EXPOSE her with ALL family and close friends, if D papers and full EXPOSURE don't shock her back to reality, nothing will, if so just let D run its course and get out of infidelity one way or another.

Also, most likely not much is going to change if you decide to exit the building again, once again you should listen to the collective wisdom of SI, instead keep posting frequently, we will tell you what we think you need to hear instead of what you might want to hear, but it's well intended and backed by THOUSANDS of stories similar to yours, those who take decisive action typically have better and faster results.

EHb,

Thanks for the update.

But I'm afraid that I just pushed her over the edge and beyond any hope to work on things for me.

You did not push her anywhere that she was already heading towards. Anyway, in this instance, it was you putting down your expectations and requirements. If your WW truly wanted R, she would do what YOU need to heal, and if that included moving out, so be it.

So far, all she is doing is waging a War of Wills with you. She is hoping that her will is stronger than yours by outlasting your needs for her needs. She was betting that your will would not be stronger than hers.

She knows you fear fear itself. As you have shown quite clearly in your posts, fear is mentioned a lot, and shew knows it.

Humans generally fear change, and a D would bring that is shit loads. You will need to get to the root of your fear. What do you fear if you take the D train?

As with most problems, when you see it as a complete whole, it can look daunting. Once you start breaking it down into smaller bite-sized chinks, it then becomes less intimidating.

If you are still seeing an IC, he/she might be able to help you break down the issues with you, so that you are not so overwhelmed.

At the moment, your WW is not R material, as she is still in super self-preservation mode. Notice that she consulted a D lawyer right after? If she were truly remorseful, she would surrender the control of the outcome to you, as she was the betrayer. Instead, she is now circling her wagons.

Stay ahead of the game and file for D. She called a Divorce attorney, don't let her beat you to the punch.

[This message edited by elKAPPYtan at 9:19 PM, December 6th (Friday)]

She says she doesn't want kids to find out.

I bet she doesn't LOL. This isn't exactly Mom of the year activity right here:

She initially confesses that they "would sometimes meet up and make out in the back of his truck"

Just to reiterate advice previously given, don't see why your wife isn't working. She could be pulling more of her weight in the marriage, and if divorced she's going to need to work.

Stay strong OP. Don't be shy about looking out for yourself, I think your wife has no problem looking out for herself.

She asks what's going on with me and I tell her I'm tired of waiting for her to show any actions to help me heal or any signs of remorse. I just blurt it out - "It's time for you to move out. You don't feel safe here so let's find a place for you to live that you feel safe".

I hadn't planned on saying this at all, it came out of nowhere. She looks incredulous and says she's been trying and showing me as much as she can but doesn't know what I need. I tell her that I can only believe her actions not her words, and that she has not shown any actions.

EHB - sometimes those "out of nowhere" feelings are your subconscious doing you a solid. That's what this is IMHO. You have been stuck with an unremorseful horrible cw for months. YOU DESERVE A PARTNER WHO WILL RESPECT YOU AND APPRECIATE HER HUSBAND. Maybe your cw will be this, maybe she won't. But the only true thing is that she sure as hell isn't that right now.

Please stick with this. This is the smartest move you've made yet. This will give you space to breathe and to figure out what YOU want. And getting clear of her toxicity can't help but have a beneficial effect on you and your healing.

Sending you so much good juju!

I would like to take a little different perspective. Your WW sounds a lot like me. When told something seriously or emotionally, I tend to laugh rather then cry. It's just my make up. It's a coping mechanism. It's not tended to insult you. I get called out on it as your WW should be. I explain that it's a coping mechanism in dealing with stress. It's nothing personal.

All.that aside. Your WW claims that she doesnt know how to help you so she does nothing. We all here in SI call BS to this. It's up to her to try, try and try again to help us BS attempt to heal. Your WW would rather talk the talk then walk the walk. She is not up for doing the work required to further attempt R.

Please listen to her words. She told you that if she moves out, it means D. Follow her logic. Your so wrapped up in explaining your perspective that your not listening to hers. She has had control and now has lost it. Yes she called her dad and an attorney. She is now going to look into want D is going to look like in her life. YOU NEED TO DO THE SAME. Knowledge is power. Please, please, please see a few lawyers and learn your rights,responsibilities, obligations, and expectations if it should proceed to D with your WW.

Remember, we here say that words are cheap from WS. We have to look at their actions. Your WW is not doing the minimum work you need to to heal. You started the ball rolling. Now you need to follow through and do you due diligence to protect yourself and your children's future. Keep telling her she needs to do this and that to help you heal. Watch her actions. And learn what your possible outcomes are.

Again, if you havent let family and friends know of your WW A, now is a good time to let them all know. She needs to start see consequences for her actions and start owning her own behavior.

Elvis

I’m sorry for your pain. Not one bit of this is easy.

I explained to her specific things I need from her, the things I have been waiting for her to do to help me heal.

I don’t know what you put in that list, but that is truly the most important thing you wrote yesterday. You need to see and hear certain things from her, and if you don’t, then you cannot live a happy life with her. That is the key.

So to be honest, I suggest you focus on this aspect and not whether or not she moves out right now.

The truth is, a BS looks for the slightest glimmer of hope. And when and if they see it, they usually let the WS then walk all over them because of that little bit of real work they see from the spouse that betrayed them.

Instead, the only mode of operation for someone in your situation is to tell their spouse that they destroyed the marriage and it’s up to them to lead the repair and rebuilding of it, not you and that until that happens, until the WS pursues that work with a vengeance and almost completes it buy driving it, that there’s nothing more for you and she to discuss.

So example words to use with her would be,

“what you did with that fat old man destroyed me. It destroyed our marriage, and it is gone forever. The only chance we have of being together in the future is to figure out why you were someone that could do that to their husband and family and figure out what it takes to help me heal and become someone I would feel safe giving my heart to again.

I want a happy life. But I won’t find that with a woman who doesn’t care enough to move heaven and earth to fix what she damaged so badly. So right now, I need to heal on my own. That’s honestly the only thing I can do right now. “

Then Elvis, you don’t have to do anything. Just go about coparenting. If she serves you papers you will know. If she doesn’t do anything, you will know.

Work on you in IC. Start leading a separate life right now. Make your own food. Do your own laundry. Make plans with friends. Do NOT date. That’s for after a D. Let her fix her own car issues. Start detaching. I know. It really sucks. But so is living with someone and begging for them to love you. That’s worse.

If she decides to step up to the plate, then let her know you’re glad to see it, and that you’ll be watching and waiting to see and here what you need over a consistent timeframe, months, years.

Until that happens, and none of us unfortunately have high hopes it will, stop engaging on the relationship anymore. If she has something to say, let her say it, and Unless it’s something that contributes directly to rebuilding and repairing, either don’t comment or tell her you’ve said all your going to say, it’s up to her to figure out.

Let us know if you have questions or concerned about this. I’d love to just tell you everything is going to be ok. But we have to be real with you. We all know how hard it is.

Keep posting. Sending you thoughts of strength.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:07 PM, December 7th (Saturday)]

What Buster and RocketRaccoon said all.day.long.

I also agree that your spontaneous declaration that she needs to move out is because your greatest desire is to be out of infidelity! Many times our hearts are ahead of us, then we have to gather courage about what needs to be done. Right now you are scared of your greatest desire because you SEE she is not being a safe partner for you and that being out of infidelity probably means BEING OUT WITHOUT HER.

I also am very dismayed that she accused YOU of making the home not a safe place for her. That attitude, after everything she has done, shows me she is very much less concerned about you and the children and still very entitled and thinking mostly about herself. You deserve a partner who goes out of their way to comfort and reassure you after they screw up royally.

Know this. I was with my husband for 20 years. I believe now he had multiple affairs for at least 10 of them. I came from a broken home. I was so determined to make my marriage work. Then one day I woke up and realized MY WORTH. How kind I could be to myself in getting out. I wondered what hell I had been waiting on with a partner who did not invest in me. It was ALWAYS all about him. Leaving was THE SCARIEST thing I’ve ever had to do in my life. I am the happiest I’ve ever been as an adult - 5 years post divorce. You can do this. CHOOSE peace, self worth and authenticity. She is showing you right now who she is. Want more for you.

Her comments the “I don’t know what you want me to do” simply means I’m not going to do anything. And it appears she has not done much.

Why? It’s simple. No remorse. SHE HAS NO REMORSE.

I think you did the right thing by suggesting a separation. If she views that as leading to D then there is nothing you can do to change her mind, but her actions clearly show her mindset.

How sad.

Fortunately you have stood up to her and told her what you needed. She just cannot step up to the plate.

Memorize Stevesn's advice.

My observation is that your wife's grief over the death of her brother was given priority over your grief for the death of your marriage and the woman you married.

Your wife took advantage of the grace you extended to rug sweep, minimize, and avoid taking accountability for her affair.

Once things get off track it takes a bomb (like I want you to move out) to get their attention.

Don't be indecisive or let her think you'll bluffing.

Among other things, she needs to accept that the shame/guilt she feels when you cry is part of the consequences of her affair.

Elivs, I'm sorry for your pain, and I completely understand why you fear D. It would be a paradigm shift, an end to your view of yourself as part of your family.

I was dumped by my wayward, who left me for her AP. It crushed me. I literally felt physical pain in my heart from the weight of the grief. But I'm here to tell you that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

It's pretty clear that you are heading for D. My advice to you, in the strongest possible terms, is to not let her get you on your heels in this process. Get ahead of it. Consult with and retain a good divorce lawyer as soon as you can.

Your wife is gonna file. You need to put on your big boy pants and start driving the bus.

EHB,

Without question it is hard initially especially with young children involved. After years of being in a seemingly happy relationship the cheaters have set a bomb off. It disorients us, demoralizes us, confuses us, makes us doubt ourselves. BUT...this is temporary. You have taken the first right step, which only a few courageous BS's do, which is to separate yourself from this toxic cheater by asking her to move out. That is a must, otherwise you will not have the time and space needed to evaluate what you want to do with your marriage.

From your posts, it does not seem like your WW gets it or will ever get it. She may still be in touch with OM, or may get in touch with him in future, or will have other OMs, who knows? What's certain is she hasn't taken a single step to acknowledge the damage and hurt she has caused to you. The question is: do you want to spend the rest of your life with a person with no personal integrity, or do you want to keep your head high, stick to your values and find someone compatible? Only you can answer this question.

One thing I can promise you is: There is not a SINGLE instance where a BH has left a WW and regretted moving on. Not a single one. There are hundreds of examples on this site where BH's have stayed, agonizingly waiting for some hypothetical "2-5 year" period to heal, not fully healed, sometimes questioning their decisions, continuing to hope that their WW's really "get it", promising to everyone here that "next time they'll leave", all in all a terrible way to live. Nothing to be proud of, though their WWs will parade them as if they're the bravest men who ever walked the planet, when they haven't moved a toothbrush.

All I can say from personal experience is: don't cave in, stay strong and you will come out of this a stronger man. Contrary to what is claimed by many on this site, it does not take any "courage" to stay with a cheater, but it takes a LOT of it to leave one, especially if kids are in the picture. Show some spine now, and you'll come out stronger.

Your WW likes to “up the ante” as a way of making you back down. She says that if you make her move out it will lead to divorce. That is a threat to you that if you insist she will make you sorry by filing. It is more manipulation.

And no way should you lie to your kids and pretend she has not moved out. She can be there for them as much as you feel comfortable with, but please do not conspire to deceive them that all is normal. Talk to your IC about how to talk to them in an age-appropriate way. Keep being there for your kids but family meals and activities are just lies now, and the kids will know it.

I know it is a huge temptation to cave in if life will just go “back to normal.” But that way lies inner torture and constant doubt and loss of respect for yourself. You may not have consciously decided to tell her to move out, but something inside you reached a breaking point. Take that seriously. Follow through until she SHOWS you that she wants to change and is DOING the things needed to do so.

She says she doesn't want kids to find out. I tell her it will be hard but she can work to conceal it by leaving after they go to sleep and showing up early before they wake.

From what you have said about your WW my guess is she may do this wacky scheme once or twice and then say it isn't fair to her or the kids and if you want to separate then you should move out.

Don't do it brother! Stay in the house - she can stay in the guest room. Do the 180.

Don't. Move. Out.

And I may be off base but I think she is milking her dead brother's death for all it's worth in a bid for sympathy and to avoid the affair talk. Of course she is sad about her estranged troubled brother dying, and missed opportunities she had to help him...too little too late. If she wants to fix something she has control over how about your marriage?

My brother and I have been estranged for years. I thought about it and realized if he or I died it would make little difference on either of our lives... sad but true.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 10:10 PM, December 7th (Saturday)]

Don’t move out.

WW’s are notorious for using that as an opportunity to completely screw you over.

Stay strong help yourself and children. Make her accountable for her actions she is just in the rug sweeping mode WO is me!

Good luck 😉