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RIO, I suppose I have a subconcious hierarchy of the alpha types I have personally known. The guys at the top are mostly SOCOM or Army guys. Some of those guys must be assholes, but none of the ones I know are. Not a one.

[This message edited by Trdd at 7:44 PM, November 17th (Sunday)]

RIO, I suppose I have a subconcious hierarchy of the alpha types I have personally known. The guys at the top are mostly SOCOM or Army guys.

That's the problem with this "alpha/beta" dichotomy, it's really entirely situational. Put a professor in front of a room of students, he's the alpha. Put him in a room with an attractive woman, he might be nothing but beta.

What I'm talking about are the "female alphas", the men that lots of women swoon for. And, in my experience, those aren't typically the guys I consider the "alpha" in the room. They just play it up really well for women and act very "alpha" around them. They might be 6 rungs down on the power ladder from the CEO, about to get fired, but they can turn on the "wow" in a group of women. Of course, it's most bravado and talk, but, still, it's effective. Also, the majority of men I work with are wealthy/very wealthy, that's a lot of "alpha dog" points in the mating game (similar to a very attractive woman, automatically getting the "pick" in sexually competitive situations).

36yearsgone:

Don't you feel that at your wife's workplace, it was a competition to see who could get to be with the sexy asshole?

As in, "Why doesn't he like me? Why does he go after the other women and not me?" It sounds like that was her motivation.

The competition drove the affair. "May the best slut win"

It seems like the plot line from "Grease".

I'm not truing to tell you whether or not you are sincere. I am saying that the message that your wording sends does not convey remorse. Ask any therapist worth her salt. She will tell you the same.

I don't need a therapist. Frankly, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. You remind me a lot of a woman who used to call my talk show. She could make an offense out of the most innocent comment.

While I enjoy banter, I think we can take mindless banter too far. Once again, the post dealt with a question. A question that caused others to engage in conversation. That's an important part of a message board.

I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don't trickle truth. I am not sexist. I may not conform all my questions to your liking, but if I did, what would ne the point?

Mildly irritated would better describe it. I have little patience for generalized questions. I'm sorry your wife did such a number on your head that you even feel the need to ask such an obviously ridiculous question.

The answer is, "No, not all of us are as stupid or as big of a whore as your wife is." Only a really stupid, promiscuous, damaged person would prefer someone like her AP. Most of us, if we ever were with someone that was such a dreg, didnt realize it, and would promptly cut them loose upon discovery.

I've got no dog in this fight. Out.

My wife is not a whore. If you want to complain about my stupid, insulting question, perhaps you should look inward to your broken, condescending self. You may ne a technical editor, with an emphasis on technical, but you are not a nice person.

I have a policy I am going to enact with you now: I refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

No further bullshit from you is required.

Topic: Do Women Really Prefer Assholes?

Hmm. Well, the obvious answer is - I'm here. So clearly - yes.

Except my cheating asshole is dead now.

I'm pretty sure if we all weren't attached to some asshole in some way - none of us would be here to begin with trying to fix the wreckage the assholes have made of our lives.

I had a thought about this topic generally, but not specifically in response to any of the recent colloquy.

The thought was inspired by comments from some sex workers in a podcast I'm listening to. The gist of their comments, which I've heard many times elsewhere, is that for most sex workers, sex is actually a small component of what their customers want. Mostly what they want is to feel wanted, desired, listened to.

Guys who are pick-up artists succeed in part because they listen to a woman, and engage with her. They may be disingenuous and even dishonest, but the point is that, to succeed in the game, such a guy actually looks at, sees, listens to, and hears a woman. Is it so hard to understand why a woman may go for a line of bs from a disingenuous man where men will actually pay money to a disingenuous female sex worker even though he knows she is merely acting? For a person starved of affection or affirmation, even the ersatz stuff can feel like a refreshing drink to a thirsty person.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:17 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

BFTG - I agree with what you are saying here.

For a person starved of affection or affirmation, even the ersatz stuff can feel like a refreshing drink to a thirsty person.

I used to think I had an affair because I lacked emotional connection from my husband. This was early initial thinking, which got abandoned very quickly. Later I came to realize I didn't have a good emotional connection with my husband partially because I myself suck at creating that.

I now believe that my motivation for having an affair was more I lacked happiness and good emotions. I lacked an ability to let myself be seen.

And, by having an affair I walked away initially saying what I liked was I was finally being "seen". No, I wasn't because I wasn't showing myself to him any more than I had anyone else. In fact, my behavior and words were really targeted to make me seem more vibrant, funny, sexy etc. Those things were not authentically me though, those were things that belonged to the role I had been playing.

When a human being is unhealthy, they will for sure go after the thing they believe they are lacking to create the good feelings they have not made permanent, lasting, decisions to create. It's a band-aid. I would venture to say that because you are unhealthy in seeking out an affair that you probably do gravitate towards other unhealthy people because a healthy person would keep throwing cold water on that fantasy world flame.

In other words, if you are going to act like an asshole, you find other assholes to do it with.

I was thirsty, but I was thirsty for things I should have been creating myself. And it was compounded by not recognizing all the things I didn't heal as well, which was adding to the behavior.

Guys who are pick-up artists succeed in part because they listen to a woman, and engage with her. They may be disingenuous and even dishonest, but the point is that, to succeed in the game, such a guy actually looks at, sees, listens to, and hears a woman. Is it so hard to understand why a woman may go for a line of bs from a disingenuous man where men will actually pay money to a disingenuous female sex worker even though he knows she is merely acting? For a person starved of affection or affirmation, even the ersatz stuff can feel like a refreshing drink to a thirsty person.

But men have to create attraction too. Otherwise they're gay best friends or beta orbiters.

I agree on the talking. Better David Niven than John Wayne. Wayne IRL did not have a clue what to do with women. He could attract them well enough, but his marriages were disasters.

But you don't have to even like them or be particularly nice about it. Just know how they tick, what pings their emotions. Men are always better off focusing on that than anything else. For good or ill.

Phrase it another way. In the case of a female sex worker, the currency she wants from the male customer is his money. If she plays her game correctly, he will pay her. But only if she does it correctly. There is always a risk of a guy who will have the sex and try to get away without paying. It happens a lot.

In the case of a male pickup dude, the currency he wants from the female is sex. If he plays his game correctly, she may give him sex. But only if he does it correctly. He may invest a lot of attention and sweet words and come up without any sex. It happens a lot.

I really loathe all the alpha/beta talk, personally. I think it's a giant load of bullcrap.

Men do not have to "create attraction". Women aren't some kind of separate species, and we're not game animals or anything like that.

When you treat dating as a game, you lose.

We even have measurable IQs and can think and understand words and stuff. Hold jobs, even. As if we were real people too.

Well...some of us know how to bake pie!

Men do not have to "create attraction". Women aren't some kind of separate species, and we're not game animals or anything like that.

Actually, if you want a different view of it.. No, we're not different species. But, we both, men and women, have to "create attraction" to succeed in the mating game. It's just that men and women do it differently; cosmetics, clothing, weight loss and plastic surgery, if you added up those industries, how big would they be? Well, those are the industries that help women (and men, to a lesser degree) help "create attraction". Knowing how to "create attraction" as a man, using words (lines/game) was akin to knowing how to apply eyeliner, something done primarily with the goal of creating attraction in the opposite sex/making myself more attractive. And I get what you're saying about not being game animals, but, if you look at the dating market, it looks more like "hunter/prey" than it doesn't, at least IMHO. In fact, much of human behavior closely mirrors hunter/prey, kind of unsurprising given where we came from evolutionarily.

When you treat dating as a game, you lose.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but, if it's what I think, well, that doesn't mirror my experience at all. I treated it more like a sport, something I needed to practice and perfect. The more I "played" the better I got at it. Want to go to a new bar 1 hr away RIO? Sure, because it gave me another chance to practice. And I did get better, a lot better in fact, with more and more practice at generating attraction and taking that attraction to the culmination (sex). I read, studied, and learned from my mistakes. I got blown out a lot, but I was tenacious and fought my way back over and over again. And eventually, I got to the point where I was pretty decent at it. But it certainly wasn't natural for me, I wasn't something I was born knowing, anymore than women are born knowing how to apply eyeshadow or lipstick.

Serious miscommunication going on here. Nowhere did I say that anyone needed a therapist. I also did not say I was offended. I like (sarcastically) the way you turn things around on me rather than actually addressing my point/question.

So, the answer to my question is, "No." You won't take a step back and consider changing your delivery. Maybe you don't want to be understood and received better. Maybe the point is, actually, to stir the pot. There's at least one member of this site who thinks these posts are trolls. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Pointing out sexist statements or attitudes does not mean I'm offended. It seems to me that a lot of people don't realize they are being sexist (or racist). Women do it, too. I just read it a lot from women on your other thread. That's why I think it's so important to point it out. The more we know and are aware, the better we can be.

I don't get to decide if something I've done or said hurts someone else, especially if I am in a position of privilege compared to him. The other person decides how he feels. I can either respect that, or I can dismiss it.

Well that's because you didn't look at women as fellow human beings, RIO. They were targets, actual prey to you. It is a game if you view it that way. Sure, lying will get you laid more, but manipulating people out of their pants isn't ethical. And no, I don't think that a little eyeliner is the equivalent of "I really want to get to know you" when you're just looking to get naked and walk away. The shock of "Oh my goodness, your lips aren't really bright red and your eyes don't have natural black stuff encircling them" is not the same as "So you said you liked me but you really don't give a damn about me?".

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:47 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

It's just that men and women do it differently; cosmetics, clothing, weight loss and plastic surgery, if you added up those industries, how big would they be? Well, those are the industries that help women (and men, to a lesser degree) help "create attraction". Knowing how to "create attraction" as a man, using words (lines/game) was akin to knowing how to apply eyeliner, something done primarily with the goal of creating attraction in the opposite sex/making myself more attractive.

Okay, what are you talking about? I think you are talking about how to get people to want to fuck you NSA?

Because if it's relationships we are talking about here...my H could care less about my clothing. He barely notices anything I wear. He actually prefers me on Sunday - I often don't wear makeup that day, I don't leave the house. I probably get laid more when I have no makeup and am wearing sweat pants. Your post really seems to throw back to the dating scene. Your version of the dating scene was not to form a LTR, but to obtain sex.

My h had no game at all when we met. It's actually exactly what I liked about him. He was just him - no masks. So, I guess the whole thing is I guess it depends on your goal. I feel if we are talking long term, Striver is probably right...learn to talk to women. And, not just empty pretty words.

The shock of "Oh my goodness, your lips aren't really bright red and your eyes don't have natural black stuff encircling them" is not the same as "So you said you liked me but you really don't give a damn about me?".

I agree with you, but, why? Why shouldn't it be the same level of shock? Yes, in a LTR, I'd agree with you entirely, if I woke up tomorrow and told my W I was just out for a F, I'd expect her to be shocked. But, when we're talking about casual sex, ONS's, or, brining it to the topic of the site, affairs, why on earth should the "words are just words to get your clothes off" come as a shock, AT ALL, to the women enjoying hearing them? I mean, at some point, we all have to wake up a little bit here. If I go into a car dealer today, and act interested in a vehicle, the salesman is going to act like he's my best friend. Ask me about my day, what I'm doing this weekend, and act interested in why I want to buy a vehicle. He, of course, couldn't care less and wants to sell a car. And if I fell for his "friendship" and went back this weekend, after buying a car, and asked him if he wanted to go fishing? And then he said no? Should I be surprised? I guess I could say "yes, he shouldn't have pretended to be my friend" but, IMHO, that would make me terribly naive. It's the dance between men and women, nearly 100% when your talking about affairs, but, in general, it applies across sexual encounters, at least in my past. I act interested, you reciprocate with more physicality and we're both happy with that exchange (or so I thought).

But come on, I remember my female family members getting "the talk" about men at like 12 years old, how they are only out for one thing and will lie to you to get you in bed. This really comes as a shock to some people? But, sadly, I can answer my own question, because, that's exactly what my W's AP did, and yes, it came as quite a shock to her that she was only there for sex. IDK how or why she was so out of touch, but, she was.

Your post really seems to throw back to the dating scene. Your version of the dating scene was not to form a LTR, but to obtain sex.

True, and yes, I'm talking about dating. It's entirely different in a LTR or marriage, I fully concede that point. But affairs are much more "dating scene" than LTR/marriage. And, at least for me, my marriage started as an offshoot from the dating scene; I think that most LTR's/marriages probably follow a similar course.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:32 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

I agree with you, but, why? Why shouldn't it be the same level of shock? Yes, in a LTR, I'd agree with you entirely, if I woke up tomorrow and told my W I was just out for a F, I'd expect her to be shocked. But, when we're talking about casual sex, ONS's, or, brining it to the topic of the site, affairs, why on earth should the "words are just words to get your clothes off" come as a shock, AT ALL, to the women enjoying hearing them? I mean, at some point, we all have to wake up a little bit here. If I go into a car dealer today, and act interested in a vehicle, the salesman is going to act like he's my best friend. Ask me about my day, what I'm doing this weekend, and act interested in why I want to buy a vehicle. He, of course, couldn't care less and wants to sell a car. And if I fell for his "friendship" and went back this weekend, after buying a car, and asked him if he wanted to go fishing? And then he said no? Should I be surprised? I guess I could say "yes, he shouldn't have pretended to be my friend" but, IMHO, that would make me terribly naive. It's the dance between men and women, nearly 100% when your talking about affairs, but, in general, it applies across sexual encounters, at least in my past. I act interested, you reciprocate with more physicality and we're both happy with that exchange (or so I thought).

Here's the thing. People who are attracted to one another have all kinds of relationships. NSA, dating, marriage, all of them. How do you know which this one is heading towards? You talk. There isn't a secret female language about if you wear this shade of lipstick you want to fuck and this other shade means you want to date. Hey, and also, most of us think we are pretty interesting people, especially if we're out partying and drinking. So a woman gets dressed up to go out, is having a great time laughing and talking and sees a guy who looks pretty damned good to her. He comes over and is talking to her and acting like he is interested in her as a person. Hey, cool. She kinda likes him too. And because she's not saving it for marriage and she likes sex, she has sex with him. The next day he blows her off as if she doesn't exist. That is not okay. That is a rejection of her humanity. You will say that if the guy was honest, he wouldn't have gotten laid. Well, maybe, maybe not. If he introduced himself with "nice tits", he'll be written off as a creep. If he says "I think you're hot and you're fun. I would really love to go home with you tonight." That's not creepy. That isn't dishonest either.

If you get laid less by not lying, so be it. I get less money by not stealing.

But come on, I remember my female family members getting "the talk" about men at like 12 years old, how they are only out for one thing and will lie to you to get you in bed. This really comes as a shock to some people? But, sadly, I can answer my own question, because, that's exactly what my W's AP did, and yes, it came as quite a shock to her that she was only there for sex. IDK how or why she was so out of touch, but, she was.

And there it is. Women should expect nothing more from a man but a desperate hard dick. That's your worldview? We all got that talk. BTW, we were learning to masturbate around that timeframe and were having major physical attraction to boys in school and pictures of hot actors and guys in bands plastering our bedroom walls. So in our moments of sexual awakening, we were told that the gender that most of us were attracted to were our enemies and wouldn't care about us as people. The picture this painted wasn't exactly a fun sexual encounter either. It always sounded a lot more like rape. So we feared these boys, because they just wanted to hurt us and they were always lying.

I lost my virginity by asking a male friend of mine if he wanted to have sex. It was a nice safe experience and I don't regret it a bit. I knew this guy wasn't lying because he had never tried to lie me out of my pants and I was in control by asking him myself. Not six months later I was raped by my best friend's ex-boyfriend when he got me drunk enough that I could barely struggle against him. Some boys will rape you. Some boys are kind. Some will lie to get sex and some will fall in love with you and feel a romance towards you so strong that it takes your breath away. Some are like my male friend and can have sex with you without strings AND still view you as a person.

What do you suggest we women do? Paint you all with the liar and rapist brush and avoid you like the plague, hoping that we don't fall prey to one of those types?

I am not interested in disrespecting the men in my life by not viewing them as people. I refuse to discard their humanity by assuming that they are out to get me and hurt me. Most of you guys don't suck.

What do you suggest we women do? Paint you all with the liar and rapist brush and avoid you like the plague, hoping that we don't fall prey to one of those types?

No. But realize the reality of the situation, especially when you enter into relationships where the reality is so obvious as to be blinding. No, your AP didn't love you, he probably didn't even like you, you were "easy sex" to him. No, Mick Jagger isn't going to call you in the morning, that's just what he says on his way out the door. Be realistic to the world around you, yes, a whole lot of men want to sleep with you every day, and very few of those men care about your hopes/dreams/interests anymore than you care about the size of their penis, it's just not what they are after in the relationship. Some are, and some do want that, and that's also rather obvious by their behavior (or at least it was with my behavior).

I am not interested in disrespecting the men in my life by not viewing them as people. I refuse to discard their humanity by assuming that they are out to get me and hurt me. Most of you guys don't suck.

I'm not sure where this "loss of humanity" occurs. Does my car salesman example not view me as a person? No, I'm pretty sure he views me as a person, he just wants a particular action from me to get something that he wants. But that doesn't mean I'm less than human to him, just that I'm a means to an end for him to get something else that he wants. And that, frankly, is just life. Does my work keep paying me because I'm a person, or because I make them lots of money. I can tell you, as someone who's been in the position of firing their friend (person) over another employee I happened to manage (but made more money for the company), well.. You're a person, but the results are what matters. Your "personhood" isn't under assault though, you have just as much right to that, and I don't take that away from anyone, it's just that most people in my life "serve a role" beyond just their humanity. It's nice to believe I'm loved just for breathing air and eating food, but, that's not the case. If I want love, I have to take actions to get it, if I want money, actions, if I want sex, actions. But I don't feel less a person because of any of that, just that life is transactional because.. Well, in many/most ways, it is.

Women should expect nothing more from a man but a desperate hard dick. That's your worldview?

You can expect whatever you want. But I'd say my worldview is that you're very likely to get the desperate hard dick, especially if you're attractive. Look, like it or not; right or wrong, it's either the highest, or close to the highest value thing that most people bring to the table. Oh great, you're smart as hell. Wonderful, I know 1000 people who fit that criteria. That's not to say it doesn't have value, it does, especially to employers, but it's not valuable to me because it's so common. But flip that around, your hot as hell and can't get enough of me in bed? Well, I know 1 person like that, and I'm not sure she's being honest (my wife). That's immensely valuable to me because of it's scarcity. It's not a statement to your lack of humanity though, it's only a statement about the things that I attribute value to.