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Thumos, I, among others have shared our experience. Are you calling us liars?

Also, maybe the reason this has you so worked up to the point you are exaggerating not only what OP said, but what those of us who have answered his question have said, is because you never had a remorseful WS, one who did the work on themselves. OP says he does.

Have you stopped to consider you might be wrong?

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:09 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

And it's a shame because you're probably soul mates

Not to thread jack but does anyone here actaully believe in the concept of soul mates? That special one out of some 3 billion other potential partners on the planet? I don't.

There are dozens of women in your geographic proximity who are just as compatible with you, if not more so, than your current wife who has devalued herself and dishonored you so deeply. Bonus! None of them have cheated on you!

You can reconcile with this woman, no doubt, if she actually will stop bullshitting you. But if you don't feel you're getting authenticity and transparency from her, then you should NO GUILT at all for deciding this isn't working for you.

The main thing is who fucking cares if she enjoyed her A fucking? The fact remains she went to a bunch of trouble to have that traumatic bad sex, poor little damsel. She risked what she's dealing with now. And to gutpunch, it's really a matter of whether or not the shit sandwich has peanuts in it or not. She submitted to another man. She not only set up the scenario, she got on her knees, she spread her legs and bent over and let another man penetrate her. She let him use her until he was satisfied. Am I, or gutpunch, supposed to feel sorry for her that she didn't like this?

Well, OP does, because that was his question.

And who the Hell asked anyone to feel sorry for her??

Just because some of us have explained our experiences, doesn't mean what she did was ok. Hell, I said in my post that IT WAS MY FUCKING FAULT FOR STARTING IT,AND HE DID NOTHING WRONG.

Damsel in distress? Hardly.

As to women manipulating men...YOU are preaching to the choir. There are a whole lot of betrayed wives in here who will tell you they know a few men like that.

Thumos, I, among others have shared our experience. Are you calling us liars?

Also, maybe the reason this has you so worked up to the point you are exaggerating not only what OP said, but what those of us who have answered his question have said, is because you never had a remorseful WS, one who did the work on themselves. OP says he does.

Have you stopped to consider you might be wrong?

You have perhaps intentionally or unintentionally misrepresented what I have said. This "are you calling us liars" like the drunk guy at the end of the bar yelling "you wanna piece of me?" is a ludicrous statement.

I have said I allow for the possibility, but it pays to be extremely skeptical of such retroactive claims from a WW, especially with an aggressive pattern of premeditation.

The probability that her representation of an Artic hellscape of sexual fear and trauma is true is low compared to the probability that she sought it out, wanted it, was aggressive about setting up the timing and circumstance, liked it, and intended to pursue a "what he doesn't know won't hurt him" agenda until her BH found out.

I will also certainly allow for the possibility that the sex was disappointing because it didn't live up to her rom-com fantasies or whatever, but that's not the same thing as going into the fetal position and being catatonic because she didn't orgasm.

The fact that it was a one-time deal says nothing to credit her story of trauma. Adultery happens in ONS contexts all the time.

Could be? Again, yes. Probably could be? Probably not.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:17 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

BSR, are you open to the other perspective that she could be lying to get some sort of sympathetic response or to alleviate some of her guilt?

I know you directed this at BSR, but I want to say I am also open to the other prospect.

A lot of women, and I bet that number is damn near all if you expand the timeline far enough out, have feigned helplessness, cried, or outright lied to manipulate someone, usually a man, to do something for them or to give them something of value. And on a site with a bunch of betrayed men, you're preaching to the wrong fucking choir.

Um, Buck, you are not innocent yourself, so you might be preaching to the wrong damned choir in this post as well.

Personally, I never feigned helplessness, and I have given 2 by 4's to many a WS who feigned helplessness. And, BSR certainly has given them an earful as well. Your credibility on the matter is no different than mine or BSR's TBH.

And, cheaters are liars. Gutpunch is better off taking the guilty until proven innocent approach. Actions not words, etc., and putting the burden of his WW. Let her fucking convince him by actions and words.

It's been 8 years. I went and read some of his other posts over the years, dating back to 2015. In them, and also mentioned in this post how much work his wife has done. In another he talked about how remorseful she had been. I don't think if he felt he didn't at least have a basis of the truth he would be saying those things. I think he has some portions of the truth he doubts - and that is just whether it's possible to set up the scene for sex and then hate it. And, that is very possible.

In this post he doesn't even say she denies that she gave him signals or her culpability of having him back to her room, or her lying about who she was taking on a tour. It only includes that she felt terrible when the sex actually occurred. Which, while not provable IS FEASIBLE. I have even seen at least one man on here say it's happened to him.

The main thing is who fucking cares if she enjoyed her A fucking?

Not us. The OP does. He asked the question is it possible? Yes, it's possible.

The fact remains she went to a bunch of trouble to have that traumatic bad sex, poor little damsel. She risked what she's dealing with now.

No argument with this, though I don't think it's very respectful to the OP call this man's wife a "poor little damsel". I am really angry with my husband right now, but it hits a different note when someone else says shit about him.

And to gutpunch, it's really a matter of whether or not the shit sandwich has peanuts in it or not. She submitted to another man. She not only set up the scenario, she got on her knees, she spread her legs and bent over and let another man penetrate her. She let him use her until he was satisfied.

Wow, how helpful and caring that is to say on this poor man's thread. You have no idea what transpired sexually, you are looking for words of humiliation and the only person you are humiliating is Gutpunch! Disgusting!

Am I, or gutpunch, supposed to feel sorry for her that she didn't like this

I do not know how you can equate with how you feel about gutpunch's wife, with how gutpunch is supposed to feel. You sure aren't helping him in your narrative. So, if you want me to believe you are showing empathy with all that, um you aren't.

This wasn't a boy in college. This was a grown ass woman getting on a plane for the explicit purposes of illicit sex violating the marital covenant.

Which not one person has disputed this fact. Not one person.

It's been 8 years.

So what? Seriously? You're going to stand on that?

I am sure it comes from a good place of protection over this man but you may be protecting him from the wrong thing.

Or you're projecting onto her. That's another possibility.

Hello Pot, meet Kettle.

I will also certainly allow for the possibility that the sex was disappointing because it didn't live up to her rom-com fantasies or whatever, but that's not the same thing as going into the fetal position and being catatonic because she didn't orgasm.

This retort has the depth of a mudpuddle. You can't even comprehend what so many women here have said, not because you do not have the capacity, it's because you refuse to.

It's been 8 years.

So what? Seriously? You're going to stand on that?

After all I wrote in that post, stating a factual piece of information is what you think I am standing on?

You need to take a breath, man.

Can anyone give me some insight in to how her feeling traumatized and yet being the one that initiated the whole thing could possibly be accurate?

I can tell you what my H told me about his A. My H had been in chat rooms...looking at webcams...etc. for about a year before his PA. During this time his fantasy to USE a woman started to grow. He was working alone overseas when he decided to start looking for a woman to use sexually. He put out Craigslist ads and started messaging women on Tagged for NSA sex. HE was definitely the initiator.

MANY women turned him down...and several even called him a pig for what he was doing to his wife. But there was ONE woman on Tagged who thought having an A would be fun . They had a few dates to meet up and make sure they weren't going to be sleeping with an "ax murderer" . My H set "ground rules"...such as this was only going to be for his time in her country...every time she came to his hotel they would be having sex because this wasn't about anything else...she was to never say anything condescending about me...stuff like that. He let her know that she was going to have to have sex with him soon...or he was going to move on to someone else. The adultery co-conspirator told him a date she would be able to go and spend the night with him at the hotel. He had TWO days to cancel this meetup...but he didn't. This was very much PLANNED and WANTED by him.

The adultery co-conspirator came to his room as they had scheduled it. She was sitting on the bed...and he was in the chair. He said that after ALL of this was actually going from fantasy to reality...he froze. The adultery co-conspirator was actually the one to initiate things that night! The first two times they were together...when he got hard and went to put the condom on...he ended up getting soft. The third time they got together...they decided NOT to use a condom...and he was able to penetrate her.

My H told me that the first night the adultery co-conspirator came to his hotel room was the BEST night of his A...because of the RUSH he felt when she actually DID come over. He said it was also his WORST night because he knew what he was doing was wrong...and it kept haunting him to where he couldn't even enjoy fucking her.

I say all of this because NONE of us BS's KNOW what we would do if the FANTASY of an A became a REALITY. My H had worked up this GREAT fantasy about using a woman for sex...but when reality hit...it wasn't as exciting as he had imagined. The RUSH of the adultery co-conspirator saying YES was always there during his 9 1/2 week A...but the actual sex...according to him...was anticlimactic. Your wife may have felt that RUSH also when thinking about the FANTASY of having sex with an old flame. My H described it as what an addict must feel. But when the reality hit that she was NOT just having sex with an old flame...she was actually cheating on her husband...she may very well have NOT enjoyed it.

I also want to point out that people on here have had questions about whether my H was really telling the truth or not about what happened. The way I see it...NO ONE knows the whole truth...not even the people who are IN the A! My H had HIS agenda...wanting to USE a woman for sex...for free . The adultery co-conspirator had HER agenda...getting an American to fall for her and bring her to live in America. If EITHER of them had known what the other's agenda was DURING their A...it probably wouldn't have lasted very long. So...to ME...I get to CHOOSE whether I believe what happened from my H's perspective...or not. From everything I have corroborated...and what my H has validated...he has been truthful in everything else he has said...so I CHOOSE to believe him .

You have heard from several women who DID have A's...and I want to thank them for giving THEIR side of the story . I can tell you that I can most certainly believe that your wife is telling the truth. But in the end...what really counts...is what your GUT is telling you. ALWAYS trust you GUT!!! Whatever you decide on...I hope you can find PEACE .

Gutpunch,

When you talk to your wife about this, does she seem defensive? What does she tell you?

Did she confess to this ONS on her own?

You say she has worked on herself since then, what does that entail? Does she lie about other stuff?

If you could fill in some of the blanks of what people are debating about maybe we can get back to supporting you better and stop some of this other non-sense.

Have you stopped to consider you might be wrong?

This "are you calling us liars" like the drunk guy at the end of the bar yelling "you wanna piece of me?" is a ludicrous statement.

As you can see, it was a question, not a statement. Perhaps you should slow down, and ponder what you are reading,before responding.

Have you outright said we are liars? Probably not. Do you think we are? Probably.

You can't even comprehend what so many women here have said, not because you do not have the capacity, it's because you refuse to.

^^Wise words from a woman you have said,several times, that you respect their input.

I refuse to believe that most of the time sex is unpleasurable for women or men. Men and women both experience sexual dysfunction like anorgasmia and ED. Men and women both fake orgasms (yes not long ago many of the same women here in this thread contended it was very possible to not know if a man ejaculated or not when I asked the question). Men and women both feel guilty about meaningless sex.

It’s also true that the sheer number of female and male orgasms happening across the planet in a 24 hour period is mind boggling. The rush of brain chemicals each time this occurs could probably fill a small lake.

I believe most of the time sex is pleasurable for both parties and that is why women like sex as much as men do. The survival of our species depends on it and we would have died out a long time ago otherwise.

This means that we should examine the facts in light of this. So what do we have? A lot of premeditation, planning, enticement and even sexual aggression on the part of the WW - not coy “suggestions.” And we have as a set of facts a pattern of behavior that strongly suggests she enjoyed the company of the AP after the sex.

So once again, the probability she was traumatized by sex with the AP is low. It’s certainly possible but the possibility is up against many headwinds compared to the probability that she sought it out, had a reasonably good time and is now trying to retroactively sell her betrayed husband a line.

I’ll warrant she may even believe it herself now, which makes me all the more sad for the real victim here — her faithful and loyal betrayed husband.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:40 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

Whether she enjoyed it or not plays very little into all of it actually. She has been brutally honest, did an enormous amount of work through therapy, ended her relationship with her parents and endured a lot of anger from me. Yet she still adamantly sticks to her story that it was horrible from start to finish.

Maybe you've never experienced bad sex, but I have. And I can tell you that when it's bad, it's more akin to some kind of perverted gynecological exam. So, it's NOT unreasonable at all that your fWW has been telling the truth on this score.

I don't understand why this particular aspect has you so stuck though. Certainly, your fWW put herself in that position and certainly it wasn't an accident. Maybe you can't move on from it because you can't believe she's being truthful, but yeah... bad sex happens. Not every man is as good in the sack as he thinks he is.

I'm tired of bearing this weight by myself as I required that no one know about this to protect my kids and to protect myself from the feelings of shame that comes from when you get cheated on and people see you as weak, a coward or a cuckold.

I think maybe the above might be a large part of the problem. And not because you didn't put a support group together, but rather because maybe YOU believe those things... that men who choose to reconcile their marriages after infidelity are "weak, a coward or a cuckold". Maybe you should spend some time in contemplation of what your true beliefs are in that regard? I can tell you from years of observation here at SI, that many men do heal from infidelity and that those who choose to R with a truly repentant fWW are some of the most put-together men I've ever seen, not weak or cowardly, and never tolerating cuckoldry. But they've dug deep, found out who they are, and they're completely comfortable in their own skin. Maybe it's you who's making a judgment, not all those people you were unwilling to tell?

GP, I had a co-worker who decided that a beloved piece of music should be looped to play all day in her office. I happened to love that music the first three times. By the 100th I was ready to take a hammer to every piece of furniture in her office and then her head. Looping. It’s never ending and that’s what you have been doing for 8 years. Are you possibly OCD? Not being facetious, just trying to help. You need therapy. You need EMDR to get that darn voice out of your head.

Think about it. You have agonized over this for.eight,long.years. It has to be wearing you out. You and she could have actually reconciled or divorced but you would have had 8 years to build snowmen, gone boogie boarding, run a marathon, read a thousand books, made a fortune on Wall Street. Instead the two of you can’t get out of your misery. Talk to her. Then get some therapy. It can’t hurt.

What is important to the OP is important to him. But, I am puzzled by the importance placed on her enjoyment. As many have pointed out, the betrayal would be what is most important to

I think the ONLY consolation you can take from this is that it was a ONS. If, in fact, that was the case, I think it could a hybrid scenario of what Thumos, Janagreen, HO, and BSR have said.

It is possible that she enjoyed the flirtation, muh feelz, and set the table for what she wanted to happen. All of that is intentional, disrespectful, and awful. It is also possible that she didn't enjoy the actual sex act beyond minimal physical enjoyment.

But she didn't go back....again, again, and again. To me, a ONS, while painful rests somewhere after a strictly emotional affair, but before an extended affair w/ multiple meetings, in terms of absolute horror IMHO. Not to minimize you pain, but you can infer that that there might be some credibility to her story in the 5 minutes or so it took to actually do the deed. Now do I believe that she is minimizing her description of the actual act??? You betcha.

I’ll sign onto this. Although with the caveat that I don’t find ONS’s much a consolation, especially considering the lengthy trail of decisions leading up to it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:49 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

I refuse to believe that most of the time sex is unpleasurable for women or men. Men and women both experience sexual dysfunction like anorgasmia and ED. Men and women both fake orgasms (yes not long ago many of the same women here in this thread contended it was very possible to not know if a man ejaculated or not when I asked the question). Men and women both feel guilty about meaningless sex.

It’s also true that the sheer number of female and male orgasms happening across the planet in a 24 hour period is mind boggling. The rush of brain chemicals each time this occurs could probably fill a small lake.

I believe most of the time sex is pleasurable for both parties and that is why women like sex as much as men do.

Thumos,

Welcome back, this is a logical thing for you to think.

However, not all sex is created equal or even in the same stratosphere for women. I can understand how you, a man who for many years was happily married and having an equitable sex life with your wife would think this way. You have likely put a lot of time and effort in learning what she likes and doing them.

For men, at worst, they are likely to enjoy PIV sex. She could be bad at everything else, but it's really hard for her to mess up PIV.

Here is where you do not connect: Men can be vastly different than you and they can screw it all up to a degree that it's not just about orgasms. I would say most women on this site would say if their partner is caring and takes time for her in the bedroom overall most sex is pleasurable, enjoyable, and something she is excited to repeat. But, most of us have had sex with a man who only cared about themselves, objectified us, made us feel disgusting like chattel. Didn't care what we wanted, was forceful in receiving oral sex (forcing our heads down, making us almost or all the way throw up), pushing our boundaries, ignoring out boundaries and being overall keen on remaking their favorite porn scene.

We are welcoming someone inside of our body. We may have trusted them to that point, but what they do after that can really be scary, humiliating, and terrible. The chances of that in a ONS is much higher than in any kind of LTR.

Trust me when I say, I have definitely had bad sex. Sex that I was excited to have, but then was taught just how little it meant that I was there with the person. It can go from fantasy to nightmare pretty quickly.

And, to go even further, you said I was projecting and I would really welcome everyone to search any post I made on the matter - I have never once said I didn't enjoy the sex in the A. So, I am not projecting for that reason. But, I have certainly had a few ONS, and would not ever repeat that in my future if I was ever single. They can have great lead up and be pretty traumatic. The women on this post are almost completely in unison on this. It's not only possible, It's at least 50% possible if not more, it's not a small possibility.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:01 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

HO, I misread your comment about “protection” as “projection” so toss that one out the window

What is important to the OP is important to him. But, I am puzzled by the importance placed on her enjoyment. As many have pointed out, the betrayal would be what is most important to

I don't think it's important to any of us. It was important to the poster who asked us if it was possible. I agree, the OP agrees (he said so), and everyone on this thread I think agrees, that's really not of paramount importance. But, it comes down to by not knowing if it's possible if there is still a lie floating out there about that.

And, we don't know if it is a lie or not. It's really possible it's not. And, through that I guess some people felt heated or like people were defending her. Not defending her. I in essence had a similar affair. Mine went on for 3 days so I can't say it was a one night stand. But, it had probably a similar weight and it destroyed my marriage. So, noone is deflecting from this being a huge crime. It was.

I can understand how you, a man who for many years was happily married and having an equitable sex life with your wife would think this way. You have likely put a lot of time and effort in learning what she likes and doing them.

True, and then she decided to take a big dump on all of that.

She gets panicky about our sex life because it’s not the same. I’m not the same. I don’t know what to tell her other than “yeah that sucks.”

I’d imagine gutpunch is in something of the same boat. And I can relate to his gut feeling that his WW is still bullshitting him.

I think it's maybe not so much important to him if she enjoyed it as much as its important to him if she lied. (HikingOut and I crossposted, and she said it better.)

I may be contradicting myself from previous pages but hey, my opinion is evolving.

Maybe it is important to him, though. I'd say we all have details that are important to us that seem trivial. I've been divorced for 2+ years and still wonder about some things.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 1:03 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]