SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Well, I asked my 21 yo son if he knew about TRP.

Yep, he knew ALOT about it.

and he was like "Mom, stay away from any redpill ass*ole, they are just a bunch of neckbeard losers

He said him and his friends (and GF) all laugh and make fun of the stuff they write on the internet.

He also said they were Anti- Jewish and wasn't sure why.

So glad my young man is not growing up into what is described as being a RP guy.

He said a lot of them are Incells(sp?) that advocate violence against women who reject them (rape, et)

He said many RP promote pedophilia (13 yo girls are fertile, etc).

Yeah, he is young, has not been cheated on (yet) hopefully never, but he is smarter than to buy into that stuff and made a lot of intelligent, mature, insightfull comments about why he does not like TRP view.

[This message edited by shiloe at 7:44 PM, February 1st (Thursday)]

Ugh, just took a look at the website. I see that lying is encouraged. I really must be out of touch these days.

Please stay on topic and avoid baiting and calling out other members.

So what you are saying is if I take the red pill I won't turn into Keanu Reeves and be able to dodge bullets and kick ass.... that I'll just turn into some nazi with neckbeard? Well, that's very disappointing.

Let me draw an example. The RP is all about telling men the truth about some women, and the way the world works (in their eyes). In my view, they are more right then wrong, but, let me draw an analogy and see if it helps at all.

Imagine if we told young women that men don't care if you're heavy or thin, attractive or ugly, and the way to get a good man is to know how to knit well. Imagine the surprise that young woman would get when she entered the dating market and realized that what she'd learned was wrong, most men (not all, most) were more attracted to thin, attractive women, and didn't care a lick if she could knit or not. She would "take the red pill" when she started wearing sexier clothes, lost weight and gave up knitting (or gave up talking about it on dates).

That's basically the situation we have, young men, or at least speaking personally, me, were taught that women liked men who treated them like royalty; the way to a woman's heart was by showering her with affection and gifts, and a good way to meet women was to be friends with them and see what developed. Well, again, I'm sure this does work for some people, but, in general, it's all wrong. The way to many women's heart is by acting aloof and uninterested, being friends with a woman is a terrible way to generate attraction, and affection and gifts really make you look needy rather than strong. And we actually have a term here for treating your wife like royalty, putting her on a pedestal, and we all say (and I agree) that it's a terrible way to keep a woman interested in you.

The RP is simply realizing that most of the things men learn about women, or, making it about me, the things I learned about women were not true (in general, I'm sure there are some women out there it would be true for, but not the majority). Yes, some people go a lot further (as I did, and I feel bad about it) and realize that it's really easy to "game" and lie to women to have sex building on the RP principals. And yes, there are a lot of sites out there that are dedicated to teaching men the way to game women and the easiest way to get them to have sex. My W's AP was an ardent reader of this stuff because I actually saw lines, quoted verbatim, from books that I read many years ago. Yes, it does work on a lot of women, including my W, had the AP never "studied" this stuff I have no doubt at all he never would have been able to get my W to sleep with him (because, even if she was looking to cheat, he had very little to offer).

So, in a way, I'm happy that your son doesn't believe in the RP, and doesn't take up it's teachings. In another way, I'm afraid for him because in not reading and understand at least some of it, he's not going to be able to understand women as well as he could if he understood it.

Am I happy I learned it? Yes, in some ways I am, it gave me a lot more confidence, it showed me how to attract women and made sex less of a "pressing issue" for me, I knew I could get it, and, for a young man, that's an important thing. But in some ways, I do wish I'd never started down that path. I'm sure I messed up some women in the path, and I'm sure they wondered why I was so impossible to lock down. Some of them I really did like, but I was so "RP'ed" up that I couldn't let my guard down. And then, I did finally let it down with my W, and she cheated on me. Do I think the two are related? Directly, no. But indirectly, yes, I do; I think I let myself slip and our relationship coast without putting the "game" into it that women, including my W, generally find very attractive. No, I don't blame myself, but I also am sure I could have prevented it. And that's a sad realization, RP or not.

Ugh, just took a look at the website. I see that lying is encouraged.

Just looked for that article. Was it the one titled "Don't Tell Her Sh*t: The Fallacy of Disclosure"? That one was disturbing. It pretty much promotes lying, gaslighting, and all the other "wonderful" things waywards do to their spouses. The very things that brought all of us here to this website. And this Red Pill thing actually encourages this behavior?!

Also, sisoon: thank you for your post on page 6. It was deeply validating and much needed.

Red pill just takes some generally true biological principles of male female attractions, and brings them far into an ugly corner, to a fringe society almost. I mean really? Guys who swear off women completely? What even bother with the principles of attraction if you’re going to beat the bald headed bishop instead of trying to meet women?

It’s simple, be confident, know your self worth doesn’t revolve around what a woman does or doesn’t think of you, and your actions will follow suit. Be respectful, kind when warranted, but also firm when warranted. Be willing to compromise, but assert yourself when its warranted. Women want a self assured guy, not someone who builds their self assurance by faking it. They can see right through that shot eventually. If I hit on a girl at the bar and she’s not having it, I’d smile, walk away, and find someone else, no harm no foul. And FWIW, it’s always worked for me

I also am sure I could have prevented it.

I hope you may revisit this in the future. I had the same thoughts for a while. Maybe, it is the truth in a way....as in maybe it was a factor in why. But there are likely many other factors of equal or greater weight in that decision-making process.

I would think that if I did x, y, or z, that she wouldn't have. I'd beat myself up and promise myself to do better, or give up, or any number of things... but I just can't change the past. And it takes two people to make a marriage work.

It's up to each person individually to honor their commitment. Choosing not to do honor commitment is still a choice made regardless of the influences on them.

I can tell you that no one can take that choice away from me.

I guess, unless i get murdered or something. Then I wouldn't have too many choices.

Your dread game will prompt her with the competition anxiety needed for tingles without other girls being acknowledged in the dynamic, which gives her less ammo to use against you (Go call Jill maybe she'll put up with you blah blah). Her imagination of your other girls is far more powerful than her knowing for sure through your disclosure.

I just read that post, and yes, it's harsh. That's the RP stuff that's designed to bed as many women as possible with minimum commitment. However, I posted the above because, what the RP calls "dread game" we call the 180. And we all recognize that it works and scream at people to do it. If we said "instill dread" instead, it would just be different word selection, not actually different actions.

We can all find terrible examples of male and female behavior under the guise of RP and feminism. There are feminists out there who think that all men should die, I actually read that once and just shook my head; but does that mean that the entire message of that group has no validity? Of course not. And it's the same with the RP, IMHO.

Sorry, just had another thought. I've heard it said or seen in articles that women aren't men and shouldn't try to act like them, rather should be at ease with their own femininity. It occurs to me why some women might act more like men (raises hand): because we might have been taught that all the things entailing being a woman are bad things. We're taught that our emotions make us irrational and crazy - but aren't emotions feminine? We're taught that if we put our bodies on display, then we're responsible for being raped and abused, plus it makes us look easy - but then we're told that a woman should dress femininely and give her man something to look at? We're taught to be submissive (to the point where we're supposed to accept the "ugly realities" about our gender without getting angry), but then we get RP saying disparagingly that women don't take responsibility for their romantic choices (someone mentioned earlier that being submissive is a personal choice, and that what's important is that a person gets to choose for themselves how to be - I fully agree with this!). I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of conflicting messages. I think there are conflicting messages for both men and women. As a woman, it sends me into a shame spiral sometimes, makes me feel like just by virtue of being a woman, there's something wrong with me. I don't think this is how folks of either gender are supposed to feel. What logical reason is there to be so self-destructive? And it matters how you treat others. Humans are a tribal species, if we want to argue biology. Treating others well is imperative to having social harmony - after all, in the smaller communities of old, we were stuck with the same people for most of our lives. Being in touch with your partner emotionally is part of that social harmony, not leaving behind a string of people who are worse off for having been involved with you (generic you). Maximizing your opportunities to sleep with a lot of women, then accusing women of riding the "dick carousel" or "squandering their youth" or something (especially if said woman thinks she's found someone to settle down with, and realizes too late that he never had plans to do that with her but wouldn't outright tell her so, until she's "past her prime" ), is NOT conducive to social harmony. Own up.

That's why the Red Pill doesn't feel right. It doesn't seem to be based on happiness or emotional health or being comfortable with who you are. It seems to be based on power over others, and using shaming tactics to control them, and never allowing yourself to be even a little vulnerable, which I would argue is important for your emotional wellbeing. That's why it's unhealthy.

However, I posted the above because, what the RP calls "dread game" we call the 180. And we all recognize that it works and scream at people to do it. If we said "instill dread" instead, it would just be different word selection, not actually different actions.

In the context of this website, we do the 180 when we've been cheated on and are reeling and trying to find our footing. But what context does the dread game have? Doing it just because? It doesn't sound like RP is proposing to do this in times of trouble within the relationship, but rather to make this the default setting. Does that really seem healthy, to make the dread game how it always is in a relationship? How stressful!

I would think that if I did x, y, or z, that she wouldn't have. I'd beat myself up and promise myself to do better, or give up, or any number of things... but I just can't change the past. And it takes two people to make a marriage work.

I know you already know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway: her choices are not your fault. Her choices to cheat are HERS; if betrayed spouses had that much control over their waywards, I'm pretty sure BSs would have "made" their WSs do something completely different than cheat. And it is very common for a person who has been through an ordeal to self-blame beyond what is fair to them.

I like what you said earlier about wanting to live your life in a way that years from now, you can look back and say "that sh*t was fun!" That's a very joyful way to live. And plus, the thing with farts? Better out than in. Live your life the same way.

That's basically the situation we have, young men, or at least speaking personally, me, were taught that women liked men who treated them like royalty; the way to a woman's heart was by showering her with affection and gifts, and a good way to meet women was to be friends with them and see what developed.

Who? Who is teaching men this?

I have teenage boys, and I am forever telling them to respect themselves and others, to never value others more than they value themselves. And guess what? They are still catering to girlfriends and getting their hearts broken.

I blame myself, to be honest. Somehow my boys have learned to value other people's happiness over their own, and that has nothing to do with learning to be Beta--or just not teaching them to be Alpha. It most likely is plain old low self-esteem.

Just maybe this world is so complicated and stressful that most people have lost who they really are, lost their true confidence? What if you are blaming women for what society has actually done to your self-esteem, for what you have allowed to happen? Just a possibility.

In the end, open blame shifting and hostility is nothing more than fake confidence masquerading as Alpha behavior, and it gets you nothing, nothing you can keep and be proud of. Maybe we should all find an IC and start fixing all this crappy thinking that brought us to SI in the first place.

Authentic and happy people don't hang out on Reddit giving tips on how to fake out women. They are too serene and fulfilled and busy. These websites are all filled with bluster, and I count myself among those blustering.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:33 PM, February 1st (Thursday)]

However, I posted the above because, what the RP calls "dread game" we call the 180. And we all recognize that it works and scream at people to do it. If we said "instill dread" instead, it would just be different word selection, not actually different actions.

Yeah no. No no no.

Dread game is to elicit something from someone else. The 180 is to protect ourselves by disengaging emotionally from a WS. These are not only profoundly different intents, but wildly different executions.

SI is not the place for this garbage. Please lock this thread.

Revisit the healing library, you need some SI 101.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 11:03 PM, February 1st (Thursday)]

Society absolutely teaches men those “beta” values. And society lies.

Maximizing your opportunities to sleep with a lot of women, then accusing women of riding the "dick carousel"

Just the words "cock carousel" =

I know right. So hypocritical. It's ok for me but not for you.

And TRP says ALL women are narcissist and manipulative.

But psych studies have consistently shown that there are more men than women with clinical diagnosed NPD.

[This message edited by shiloe at 11:14 PM, February 1st (Thursday)]

Society absolutely teaches men those “beta” values. And society lies.

It seems to me that society teaches both men and women values that are not conducive to either's health. Values that miss the mark of how to connect with each other as people, not putting each other on pedestals. Who was it who said that quote: "There are two ways to dehumanize someone; by dismissing them, and by idolizing them"? Though I will ask, just to clarify: what's wrong with teaching everyone to treat each other well? I don't think that's beta or submissive (I hope that's not what's meant when I hear the term "beta"), I think treating others well and having basic common courtesy promotes social harmony. If another person doesn't appreciate it, that's their loss. Doesn't mean you need to change your game - and that "you" is for both men and women. Anyone heard of the book "Why Men Marry B*tches"? Seems to me to be a similar concept, only for women: ditch the "nice girl" persona because men don't find that challenging or interesting, and become a you-know-what to keep him on his toes and addicted to you. Ahh, the dating game. Guess that's why they call it a game, right? Well, if people wanna play, maybe we should just leave them alone to play. Hopefully the folks who don't want to play games will find and cherish each other.

I know right. So hypocritical. It's ok for me but not for you.

The double standard makes me wanna tear out my hair and run around screaming with a baseball bat, burning our hypocritical society to the ground. But that wouldn't be very ladylike.

The chart I shared showed we were both right and had valid points, WornDown. I couched it? I shared the chart. I couched nothing. I also shared, from the same report, that older women have an almost 10.5% pay gap.

No. By conflating all jobs across all experience the pay disparity is wrong. Do you say some guys make $10/hr And some make $10,000/hr (CEOs)? No.

Your original position was women make $0.76 on the dollar for the SAME JOB AS MEN.

Again, that statistic was all men vs all women. Not against same job. When that was taken in to consideration, it was 5%. Which is what I said.

And, as far as "mansplainin" I was asking you if that was what you were doing, didn't say that was what you were doing. I said it would be bizarre and I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Nice try on trying to flip it around onto me, though.

Sure. You were asking if that was what I was doing but wasn't accusing me.

Yep. You got me. I'm a dick.

Give me a break. You were accusing me of doing that.

SOrry, but your own data proved you wrong.

When one accounts for age, education, experience, the difference is 5% (I guessed at <10%).

eta: And, by sharing the information that I researched I was showing I agreed with you, too, WornDown. Love the graciousness you have

.

You didn't say you were wrong.

You came strong that women were still oppressed and implied that 76% was legit.

The gender pay gap is real. I am not going to debate that. Anecdotal work stories are not research, facts and studies. The research and studies done on the subject are well done and solid. The "adjusted" gender pay gap is less than the .76 I posted. These are the facts.

[This message edited by WornDown at 1:23 AM, February 2nd (Friday)]

But in some ways, I do wish I'd never started down that path. I'm sure I messed up some women in the path, and I'm sure they wondered why I was so impossible to lock down. Some of them I really did like, but I was so "RP'ed" up that I couldn't let my guard down. And then, I did finally let it down with my W, and she cheated on me. Do I think the two are related? Directly, no. But indirectly, yes, I do; I think I let myself slip and our relationship coast without putting the "game" into it that women, including my W, generally find very attractive. No, I don't blame myself, but I also am sure I could have prevented it.

And there's your "aha moment". Underneath it all, you still believe that there was something you might have done differently to avoid being cheated on.

We talk about it all the time here, and believe me, I really do know how hard it is to accept that the cheating is on the cheater, but it is what it is. It's about the WS's coping skills and lack thereof, their character and the holes in it, their choices to engage in honesty or deceit. Whether the cheater is male or female, it's still about the cheater.

This "Red Pill" malarkey is just PUA-lite. It's all about getting up some gal's skirt for a few minutes. It's not about having a RELATIONSHIP with a real, live, breathing, human being because the misconceptions about what a woman is and what she wants will eventually doom a long-term arrangement.

Yes. There are some biological differences between males and females which go beyond penis and vagina. For example, what "red pill" guys read as "manipulation" is actually a broader pathway between the left and right hemisphere of the brain which allows women to identify and interpret emotional information more quickly. And did you know that what a guy smells like is far more important than his pick-up lines? Yes, women subconsciously whiff for DNA compatibility.

So, if your goal is simply to get laid, continue doing what you're doing. If, on the other hand, you ever decide you want a real relationship again, throw all this "red pill" baloney on the trash heap where it belongs. "Alpha and "beta" are temporary descriptions of behaviors, not a lifetime sentence for a fully developed human being.