Masters,
You're getting some really good advice here. Please take it and implement it.
You're doing some things right, but gently, some other things wrong. I'm worried that if you don't move fast now, you're going to end up in a spiral of self-recrimination, regret and very deep anger (where I find myself) later. You will wish you'd acted decisively. Please do act in your best interests right now.
I was in a similar spot as you three years ago, even around the holidays. The difference is I didn't have a community of very insightful people telling me to pull my head out of my posterior. If I had, there are a lot of things I would have done differently. We're trying to save you from that.
Have you VAR'd her? Have you consulted with an employment law attorney? Have you demanded she take an STD panel, since STD's can be spread through deep kissing (yes, really)? Have you exposed the affair to her family (not just her father)? Has she delivered an NC text and email to AP and proven this to you? Has she given you a WRITTEN timeline? Etc. Etc.
In short, have you delivered the package of non-negotiables to her that I and others recommended at the beginning of this entire thread? If not, then any circular nonsense discussions with her and dancing around the idea of separation are going to get you more heartbreak and pain.
I sense both strength and hesitation in your update. That's normal. Gird yourself. Do not go weak in the face of her tears, equivocations and words. Women are better verbal communicators and they can dance around men with verbal gymnastics and really toy with your mind. Keep your mind focused here.
When I was confronted with this shitshow three years ago, I exposed to her family, I demanded NC and got it. But I went soft along the way, and I'm only now asserting that package of non-negotiables. I could have saved myself more than 1,000 days of torment and pain by ripping the band-aid off three years ago. I don't want that for you. I want to see you get clear here.
Some things to consider:
I'm a rare person that requires a lot of physical touch, hugging, kissing, etc.
This isn't rare. It's normal. It's what a normal empathetic human being craves and should be given. If your WW hasn't been doing that for you hitherto in the marriage, then she's the outlier, not you. She's the one who hasn't been meeting your needs, which a normal loving wife would do. On top of that, she doesn't respect you and has done the most disrespectful thing a woman can do to a man. In fact, she holds you in contempt and considers you a comfortable significant other she had children with -- a pack mule for hauling groceries around and chauffeuring the kids. She thinks she's entitled to a boyfriend on the side. Get it?
I'm in a very strange spot right now. I know most, if not all, of you have been through it, so you understand better than anyone possibly could. I go from wanting to be back with her, wishing things were different, wishing she never cheated and we worked on our relationship together...to getting very angry and feeling the hurt all over again.
It may feel "strange," but in fact it's a perfectly normal human response to betrayal trauma from the one person you trusted above all others. Your brain, your nervous system, your endocrinal system, everything in your body is in hyperdrive now working overtime to stabilize a patient that is bleeding out. Soon, if you haven't already, your system will flood with endogenous opioids (the body's very own Dr. Feelgood drugs for a body that is in shock). You'll go a bit more numb. At the same time, your brain is now at Defcon 1. As far as your brain is concerned, Kruschev's finger is one tic away from the nuclear button. Your beautiful mind will continue to assert anger and other rational alert thoughts whenever you feel weak and start to go soft in your WW's presence. This is because your system is trying to protect you from further danger.
And you need to be protected, my friend.
Just be aware that the wanting to be back with her is the residue of a marriage you thought you had. That marriage is now dead as a doornail. You just haven't realized it completely yet.
Your brain is trying to puzzle through the very complex reality that this person in front of you is not the wife you thought you had. So remember that in more ways than not, your residue love is for a person who doesn't exist. The person in front of you .. that's your real wife. It's who she has been all along. Once you get your head wrapped around that, your feelings of limbo about R vs. D will become easier to sort out. You may decided to R with her in the long run, but forevermore you'll know the real her that she's been hiding from you for many years. This is who she is.
We've promised to try to not talk about the situation, and not fight.
Horrible, no good, terrible, very bad idea. Do not assent to this. She doesn't get to set these terms. My WW pulled this stunt. Don't let it slide. Tell her you will talk about it and talk about it and talk about it. And you'll be angry about it. And she will need to face your anger. For years. If she's not down for that, she's NOT RECONCILIATION MATERIAL.
She even said that if I was in a big office, like she is, and I developed a friendship like relationship with a female co-worker, the same would happen. Once again she's trying to justify her actions in saying that I would do it. I got really angry at that comment and said absolutely not, I don't cheat on my wife, I made vows in front of God. Her response, well you've done plenty of things God wouldn't be happy with (ie, watch porn, not exactly the same).
I'm glad you saw through this for the absolute horseshit it is. Adulterers say the most astonishing ridiculous hurtful things because they are astonishing, hurtful people. A few additional thoughts:
- The moral equivocation is quite common. It's a form of rationalization. My WW did another version of this when we discussed the sacred marital covenant and vows. She tried to say that 'we've both broken our vows in different ways.' Sound kinda familiar? That's because THEY ALL work from the same sad cheater's script. My wife would never elaborate on this when challenged, because she had nothing to back it up. It was just more shit cheaters say.
- Also, the porn thing is a version of "Fireproof." She's trying to "Fireproof" by saying "you watch porn, so I was entitled to an affair" (this is the actual plot of this so-called "Christian" movie). While the porn may be ethically dubious (and it is, and you should stop that, but that's for another discussion) it has no bearing on her decision to commit adultery. The two are not the same at all.
- Saying you would do the same thing in a big office should make you coldly furious. And did you notice she's implicitly admitting it will happen again as long as she works in a "big office"?!? It's a lie straight from the Enemy. Do not let her pull you into the moral abyss she's willingly leapt into. You don't have to be in infidelity with her. That's her own private hell she created for herself.
Read Proverbs 30:20 one more time please, and really let it sink in. Because this is describing your WW almost perfectly right now.
What I'm getting at here is, she takes full responsibility for her affair, but always points it back to the situation we were in, and says it was bound to happen.
It's already been pointed out, but this is exactly the opposite of taking responsibility. This rationalization, minimization, blameshifting and gaslighting.
My thoughts are this...separate in the new year for a period and let us breathe. If we can work it out, great, if not, we sell the house and move on. She travels the first week of December, I travel for a full week right before Christmas, then we're going back to St. Louis for Christmas. Timing just doesn't work to do it right now, although I think it may hit her harder and sooner if we did.
For what it's worth, and of course this is only my opinion: YOU SHOULD SEPARATE NOW.
The timing is never good to separate. It always sucks. There's never a good time.
The time is now. Not after the New Year. Let her stew over the holidays in the shit soup she created.
This is one of the worst cases I've read here on SI of a WW not feeling remorse and showing how unsuited she currently is to reconciliation.
She is unsafe at any speed.
Put a separation agreement in front of her NOW. Do not delay. There's no reason to delay, you will only signal weakness, and you'll end up severely regretting it.
If she does the ENTIRE package of non-negotiables after you've separated, then you can consider reconciling, and you can tell her that.
Separate now. Do not put this off.
I deserve someone who I love and loves me back, I deserve someone who I can trust. I'm trying my best for the kids, who I love more than life itself. I know I can't do it only for them, but I'm making this last ditch effort. I wish she would realize how much this hurt me, the mistake she made, and be willing to make an effort.
You got the first part of this right. The last part is wrong. You're not making a last ditch effort here, you're letting her get away with it, potentially driving the affair underground for it to continue, and allowing her to control the terms and the narrative. You're allowing the "fog" to continue to drift into her mind.
A last ditch effort would be to separate immediately, give her the package of non-negotiables you need from her immediately, and then maybe you'll consider reconciling with her. That's a last ditch effort. That's shock and awe.
So one more time:
1. This isn't an EA. It's a full blown PA. This needs to be said over and over because she's still gaslighting you. She's lying her ass off. STILL LYING TO YOU, EVEN NOW! Deep kissing happened, bodies made contact, and she had sex with him. Bet on it. She wanted it, planned it, made sure it would happen. She exposed you to potential STD's. And she is not remorseful about it. At all.
1a. Separate now. Signed separation agreement giving you primary custody of the children, based on the emotional duress she's placed them under and behavioral problems you've noted with your kids because of her erratic actions. If you delay on this, you'll get divorce raped bc you stayed with her and courts will consider that forgiveness.
1b. Separate legal action from an employment attorney on the workplace issue. Make sure the two attorneys coordinate timing and sequence on this.
1c. Separate legal action on an alienation of affection lawsuit against her AP. The one-two punch of two separate actions against him will break him; and he needs to be broken, not for revenge, but because it creates a massive zone of safety for you to begin to heal and think and pray. Along with exposing to OBS (which you already did) it also severs once and for all with utter finality any ongoing limerence and relationship between the AP and your WW.
2. Expose the affair to her immediate family (not just her dad). Tell them in no uncertain terms this is why you are separating, that she's continuing to be untruthful and unremorseful, that she exposed you to STDs with deep kissing (even as she laughably claims no sex), that she's blameshifting and gaslighting you. Tell them you understand blood is thicker than water, and that you've given your WW a very precise list of things she will need to execute if there's any hope of reconciling with you.
2a. She needs to quit her job if she wants to stay with you. Again, you should ask your divorce attorney about this before demanding it. But given that she's a good earner, she should be able to get another job quickly.
3. Access to her devices, email accounts, social media, everything. No nonsense from her about "privacy" -- if she wants to help you heal, then privacy ends. She must hand them over willingly and you will use retrieval software to download everything that's been deleted. Again, this is non-negotiable. Not up for debate. She either does it or you walk. Don't screw around with this or get in an involved circular discussion with her. It's "Hand the phone over right now or we're done."
4. Give her the package of non-negotiables below. This is an all or nothing package. It's a take it or leave proposition. Be ready to walk and mean it with a fervor down to your gonads.
Along with the above actions, here's the package she gets as a take it or leave proposition:
A. Immediate NC with AP and document it. Maybe she should even apologize to the OBS in writing (some others may weigh in on this, but it gives you documented proof of her irresponsible and erratic actions in writing in her own hand).
B. Immediate IC for both of you, preferably with therapists who specialize in betrayal trauma. You are the victim of betrayal trauma now, but that doesn't mean you need to stay a victim. IC is for her to own this and figure out why she's such a fuck up. IC is for you to process and heal. No MC -- too late! That marriage is dead, dead, dead. It doesn't need "counseling." It needs to be buried. A new one could emerge, but only if she works to make it happen.
C. Full STD panel for her and for you. This must happen. Tell her this is what you want and it's not up for debate. If she can't do this minimal thing for your peace of mind, then you need to be quits with her.
D. Written timeline of the entire affair. Detailed, WRITTEN, narrative timeline. This makes her put it in black and white and puts psychic pressure on her. In this case, give her a week to finish it and hand it over. She had plenty of time to screw around with a co-worker, she's got plenty of time to detail her affair in writing for you.
E. Polygraph exam for her tested against the timeline for veracity and truthfulness. Polys are cheap in the long run, about $500 or less. Better accuracy with one single question, like "did you have sex" but you can ask additional questions for the same price (the accuracy goes down a little bit with each added question, however). Polys are accurate. The FBI, U.S. Senate, intelligence community and military all use them for a reason. The poly is also a tool to exert tremendous psychic pressure on her to come clean. You'll read a lot here about the proverbial parking lot confession. It's not cruel, it's rational and smart. You need to be rational, cold and smart right now.
F. Moving forward, a post nuptial agreement for you to protect you from divorce rape in the event of future infidelity. She's demonstrated a worldview callously capable of adultery. Cheaters don't always repeat, but post nups are recommended for a reason.
G. As I already said, she secures another equal paying job, and quits her job and reports the infidelity to HR. It sounds like they were screwing around on the job, so this is a MUST.
H. She must read and implement How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair. No balking, no weaseling, no delays. Then she provides a written plan for how she will implement all of the book's
"to do list" immediately.
Lastly, VAR her. You need intel, and she's not a trustworthy person.
[This message edited by Thumos at 12:12 PM, November 18th (Monday)]
