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If they had an opportunity to co-ordinate, which they probably have, their stories would be the same.

I've thought about trying to get all her text messages off her phone that have been deleted, still undecided. I looked into FoneLab and don't know if I have the IT expertise to do it. I can get her phone away from a bit, but not any big length of time.

There’s an easier way: ask her her phone so thar you can recover her texts.

You can always ask a PI to do the recovery for you.

It's one thing the lies she's telling you.

It's another thing the lies you're telling yourself.

If you want to believe that two grown adults are just "kissing" than good luck with that.

You tell her you want to separate and she starts to buckle.

You want the truth?

I mean do you REALLY WANT THE TRUTH??

You say you do but how far are you willing to go to find out?

Can you handle the truth?

Make her take a polygraph and ACTUALLY GO THROUGH WITH IT!!

Who cares what this OM told his wife who than told you. You don't think they coordinated their stories??

Their relationship is essentially over. I told his wife last week and she confronted him over the weekend. She told me she cares about him but I don't see it going anywhere unless we and his wife and him separate. Which it certainly might. I told her she needs to not date him ever out of respect for me, but she obviously doesn't have any respect for me or our marriage, and she hates when people try to control her, so she might go back to him when all the dust settles.

I suggest you withhold granting her the gift of R until she earns it. So far it doesn't appear that she's earned it.

All your progress to date in getting your wife's attention that there are negative consequences associated with her affair has been from showing decisive action (exposing the affair, and the 180).

Don't loose your momentum by giving her any control or the premature feeling that you've decided to R.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:49 PM, November 21st (Thursday)]

You exposed the affair to the OBS and the VP picked his own wife and family. If you divorce your wife, she's now left with nothing - and looking like a fool.

She's now in damage control and will say and do anything to save herself. Among other things, will she learn to love you again or respect you? Will she do the work necessary to restore trust and (even if she does) will you trust her again?

I recall reading several of your posts saying that a PA was a deal breaker.

Before you consider R, or suspend plans to separate, or slow down your exit plan, I suggest you have her take a polygraph test (otherwise the uncertainty will come back to haunt you).

You could tell her that both R and D are on the table, and it will be one or the other.

To R and forgive her , you need to know what you are forgiving, and just kissing doesn't ring true. And does just kissing include groping and grinding and what they called "heavy petting" in the 60s? Hot make out sessions or a peck on the lips.

There are tons of posts where just kissing becomes just groping then oral then just fucked one time and I didn;t like it then fucked dozens of times in your bed and at hotels.

So. IMO you need to know. Ask for her to give you her phone unlocked. If she declines or runs to the bathroom or out to her car then she is deleting messages. Proving she is not yet R material.

sounds like you can afford a PI or an expert to recover the messages.

The tough thing is you may find the smoking gun that leads to divorce, but is it right for her to continue to lie to your the rest of your time together, if you reconcile?

Why not have her take a poly? I'm not a big fan of them, but here it seems appropriate. Let the AP wife know as well and that you will let her know how it goes.

I wouldn't tell your wife until the day before. Don't let her visit websites designed to teach people how to fake it and passes.

Go read the threads here recently that have show the value of a polygraph. In Neanderthal‘s case it cut through his WW bullshit like a hot knife and warm butter.

A couple hundred bucks and you get your answers. One way or another.

Done.

So why not?

"I want to know if they've had sex, probably because then I'm 100% out for sure. I didn't think they had sex, then she went to Dallas and lied to me (when asked if he would be there) and now I'm honestly not sure. You're gonna say I'm blind to it, which I understand. MAYBE I JUST DON'T WANT TO FACE THE TRUTH. He sent her a text about the sunrise out HER window in Dallas last (not his), which made me think he stayed the night with her that night" (which is true and you can confirm by having her take a Polygraph).

So back to the lies she's telling you vs the lies you're telling yourself.

You claim you want the truth.

However you and I and everyone reading your story knows your wife is lying and if you follow through with the polygraph it will confirm what you know deep in your soul to be the truth. That this A is more than the lame ass excuses she's been telling you that it's just "kissing".

So then you're left with ending the marriage (because you stated PA is a dealbreaker) or you rug sweep the truth after confirmation because you want to save your marriage no matter what.

So again I ask do you REALLY want the truth and if so are you willing to demand she takes a polygraph because this will be the only way to truly get confirmation.

Based upon your wife's actions here recently if I was a betting man I'd bet my life she'd start spilling the truth in the parking lot before the polygraph. Even then you still make her go through with it.

Choose wisely.

thought about trying to get all her text messages off her phone that have been deleted, still undecided. I looked into FoneLab and don't know if I have the IT expertise to do it. I can get her phone away from a bit, but not any big length of time. Honestly, as much as I want to know, I know it will break me again.

Masters, brother, please don’t back down on this. You will regret it horribly. Please trust that we’re here for you and we know what we’re talking about. Fonelab is not hard. Gently, that’s an excuse.

Their stories match because they coordinated. Count on it.

You are smoking a big pipe full of hopium here and I am very concerned and worried for you. The crash is going to be hard. When you begin to think more clearly your rational mind will assert righteous anger and you will be overwhelmed by it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:53 PM, November 21st (Thursday)]

The anger that comes later is colder and harder - like a diamond. It shines brightly. It won’t relent, because your brain will make logical and inescapable conclusions. You will have undeniable epiphanies.

If you don’t get the truth now you will be angry with yourself, with her and the world. And it won’t let up.

She is apologizing for her bullshit behavior from a few days earlier (think about that) because she stands to lose everything. The fantasy blew up, she realizes you are a quality man she held in contempt and now you as her plan B backup have one foot out the door. She will string you along like this for years if you allow it

Have you VAR’d? Demanded a full STD panel? Demanded a full written timeline? Gotten proof of an NC a text and email? Contacted an employment law attorney? Gotten a separation agreement drafted? Scheduled a polygraph?

Are you really going thru with couples counseling after all the advice here against it?

If it seems like we’re hounding you, we are, but in the nicest way possible. I want to see an innocent faithful man get clear of this mess for once — and that means I’m open to you reconciling with her if she owns her shit — but the only real way that can happen for you is by implementing the clear steps laid out for you.

Your wife is not special. She’s exactly like every other WW we’ve seen. She is bullshitting you, gaslighting you and worse.

However you define love she doesn’t feel the same or see it the same, at least not yet and maybe never. You are in deep with a Proverbs 30:20 woman and she is going to shatter your soul if you allow it.

You came here saying you needed advice. We’ve given it but no one can do these things but you.

I really don’t want to hound you, so I’m going to stop asking. It doesn’t seem like you’re ready to hear it. I am hopeful for the best for you and really hope you don’t lose momentum and take the initiative here. I don’t want you to end up where I am three years later.

Wishing the very best for you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:27 PM, November 21st (Thursday)]

Here, why don't we go with a complete standard SI recovery packet.

-Do not state you R until 1 year after the affair ended. This is so you can process and don't feel guilt for going from R to D and back to R

-Separate - This is so you can get your head on straight and figure out your anger

-She writes a NC you approve, it goes out

-She writes a timeline. If you see holes in this timeline, ask for a polygraph and simply ask the question if all the physical interactions are detailed in the timeline. Boom, either she is lying or needs a revision

-She starts IC not you. This is to figure out her "Why's"

-You can do IC, but this is to process your rage and sadness from her trama

-Never go to MC (Marriage Counseling). It is always a farce and only damages the BS further

So, what do you think masters? Basic stuff we all recognize as the basic steps. So get away and ask for a timeline and NC letter.

Good luck dude. FYI - Your wife is still lying. They all lie. She lied up until you stopped. If you pushed harder she would lie, then back track. Sorry, it is how things go. They lie to cheat. So they lie to not lose everything.

Honestly, as much as I want to know, I know it will break me again.

No it won’t. You’re stronger than that, much stronger than you seem to believe. It will not break you. You’re using this unfounded fear as a reason to plant yourself firmly in limbo.

I know because I did precisely the same thing. Please don’t make the same mistake. Get the truth. Right now you do not have it.

What will break you is twisting in the wind for years knowing she has lied to you. And you setting yourself up for that extended hellishness.

Have you exposed to her family (not just her father)? Has she enrolled in IC? Has she read How to Help Your Spouse and given you her written plan for implementing the book’s recommendations? Has she given you her plan and timeline for seeking new employment? Have you contacted her company to alert them to a predatory VP of HR? Have you asked your attorney about an alienation of affection lawsuit? have you stopped hysterical bonding and insisted on no sexual contact?

Rug-sweeping can lead to regret later on and even a repeat performance.

The capability is there. Nothing's changed so....

You' ve gotten your WW's attention, good job. Wanting R is no crime and your choice. I hopeit all goes well.

I would recommend going after the truth again now that your wife is starting to get it. The likelihood you know everything that happened is very low. Press her some more. Tell her you know there is more and you cant reconcile from what you dont know. There are other strategies if you want to hear them?

How did she explain the sunrise from her room text? Because kissing and coffee has absolutely zero face valdity for that text message.

[This message edited by Trdd at 5:06 PM, November 21st (Thursday)]

Here, why don't we go with a complete standard SI recovery packet.

We’ve already done that several times in this thread in very clear terms. He seems understandably overwhelmed and unable to hear it right now.

Best of wishes to you, Masters. We’re rooting for you.

Masters, you can lie to yourself for awhile, maybe even several months, that your wife is telling the truth and has given you the full story.

Eventually, sooner rather than later, your actual physical brain will not provide you with this luxury any longer and it will rebel. Your own rational thoughts will accumulate and you will basically metaphorically kick yourself in the crotch. Hard. And it’s gonna hurt. Bad.

It will only be magnified by marital counseling that will allow your WW and the biased marital therapist twist your head up in knots so bad it will take years to untangle.

Please don’t rugsweep, don’t allow her to, don’t allow blameshifting, don’t do couples counseling and get moving on the other things we’ve recommended.

As one small example, you are playing Russian roulette with your physical safety by not insisting on a full STD panel for yourself and for her. Do you really want to take that chance?

(edited for typos)

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:36 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]

Brother do what feels right to you.

She and the other man coordinated their stories; "just kissed". Give yourself the Christmas gift of a polygraph test for your wayward wife. Gift yourself the truth. Whether she passes or not you at least have something and can decide your future with a clear conscience knowing the actual truth. I wish the best for you.

It's been more than a month since your wife admitted to being an unrepentant adulteress who murdered your marriage, lit it on fire and buried the smoldering remains it in the ground to rot -- with no regard for you and no remorse.

She admitted, essentially, to holding you in the deepest contempt and regarding you as a grocery store pack mule and chauffeur -- making you her beta plan B while going goo-goo eyes for her low-key daddy silver-fox-executive sexual plan A.

She willingly, joyously did all of this: she bedded another man in her Dallas hotel room with open arms and open legs and a smile on her face, and they shared a sunrise coffee afterwards that felt so romantic they wrote about it. She did it all with a predatory man who is her superior at her company, a man who is the head of human relations for the entire company, a man who put his own family at stake, who has gone through documented training provided by his company and put his signature down on papers vowing to never abuse his position of power over subordinates or create a hostile work environment with inappropriate sexual behavior, a man who laughed in his sleeve while looking you in the eye, simultaneously grooming your wife for his side piece sport sex.

So...

-Has your wife documented NC text, email and letter?

-Has your wife provided a written apology to the other betrayed spouse and documented it for you?

-Have you tested yourself for STD's? Has she?

-Have you exposed her adultery to her entire family, not just her father?

-Have you consulted with an employment attorney?

-Has a divorce attorney drawn up papers for you and a separation agreement, so that you have this on standby for when you learn the awful truth from her?

-Have you inquired about an alienation of affection legal action in North Carolina?

-Have you had an attorney draw up a post nuptial agreement for your WW to sign in the event you can actually reconcile?

-Have you located a betrayal trauma specialist to help you with individual counseling and another to hold her accountable for her narcissistic abuse of you?

-Have you foreclosed any nonsense discussion of useless and toxic marital counseling for a marriage that is already done and in the past?

-Has your wife read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair and provided you with a written plan for how she will implement the book's to-do list?

-Has she provided you with a detailed written timeline?

-Have you scheduled a polygraph?

-Has she handed over her phone for deleted text recovery and provided you with unfettered access to all email and social media accounts?

-Have you VAR'd to gather intel as she continues to trickle truth and gaslight you with manipulative tears?

-Has she provided a plan for when she will quit her current job and find another with equal pay?

-Have you stopped wearing your now-offensive, sick-making wedding ring that is a symbol of fraud and abuse and more than likely makes your skin crawl as you look at it and realize what it now symbolizes?

-Have you foreclosed any DARVO gambits by your wife to rewrite the history of the marriage, talk about how her "big office" is to blame for her shitty choices, or accuse you of not meeting her needs, etc?

-Have you made it clear that discussions about her adultery will continue for a very long time and will not be rugswept so that she can feel "comfortable"?

-Have you started to adopt a healthy mindset for implementing the 180, protecting yourself -- and ditching hopium that your wife is somehow different from the person she just revealed herself to be?

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:20 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]