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Masters

I agree with buffer. Do what feels right for you. Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. Good luck.

I agree with buffer. Do what feels right for you. Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. Good luck.

Agreed. I tend to be blunt because I can see no purpose in such situations for sugarcoating what is not merely a shit sandwich but the equivalent of a radioactive dirty bomb.

Masters, you came here for advice. I think you expected us to get right to the point and not sugarcoat a horrible situation. We gave you SOP for these situations, with a tight window of time in which to act. None of these JFO situations are particularly unique or special, and yours isn't. In fact, they are nauseatingly repetitive. Same words. Same actions. Same trickle truth and gaslighting. Same hateful intentionality and willful contempt from a WS. Over and over.

Because the actions and words of a WS are so repetitive and drone-like, there is a formula that seems to work to help a BS counteract a toxic crazy-making personality, get ahead of the shit show, create some psychic and spiritual space, and start making healthy decisions for themselves. It also seems to put a WS into the real world with real consequences. Some WS's get it and have an epiphany of metanoia; many don't.

But regardless, the formula seems to work for BS's and that's the most important thing. Deviate from it, drop things from it, rug sweep, enable, go soft … and it doesn't seem to work as well or at all. Then you find yourself in limbo. And that's a really sucky place to be, as I can attest. That's really all many of us are saying.

But it's your life, your choices, your situation. Good luck.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:36 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]

You need to get your wife polygraphed to find out how far the physical affair went.

Meeting up at every opportunity and traveling together.

I bet money it was more, much more, than just kissing. Are they teenagers? Even the most reticent teens add a little fondling while making out.

TimSC, We haven’t heard from Masters in awhile. I think he is understandably overwhelmed and in shock at finding out the horrific reality that his wife isn’t who he thought she was.

But from his last set of posts it looks like unfortunately he may have been on the verge of rugsweeping. I hope that’s not the case and certainly hope he will come back here to update us at some point.

Thurmos,

I hope masters realizes that it was all her decisions to do what she has done. And she did it for one reason....she wanted to do it. She made the decision. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.

My wife had an EA with a guy from her gym many years ago. She was a SAHM. While I worked my ass off trying to insure a better life for my family she was developing a relationship with another man.

I heard all the excuses, "Nothing happened", "He is just a friend", "I have only met him for coffee to talk about his problems". All bullshit.

It is hard to take in the pain of betrayal from a woman you have built a family with. But he has to be strong for his kids. Work through the pain.

I wish him the best.

Hey all, I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.

I've been trying to collect my thoughts for the last week or so. We took a trip to a football game the weekend before Thanksgiving with the kids. Her parents met us there to take the kids for a few days, so we had time to talk in the car on the ride home. I asked every question I had. I realized I'm never going to get the answers I want. She made a huge mistake, period. She knows this, admits to it, and has changed her mind on a lot of things.

I appreciate everyone's honest advice, I really do. I'm not going to follow it word for word, but I appreciate knowing all the steps. The one thing I want to do is get the deleted text messages off her phone to see what else was said. I've looked up Fonelab and I'd like to know how it works, if anyone knows. I rarely have her phone for more than a few moments, unless I take it while she's asleep. All I really want are deleted text messages from August-Now.

Facts:

They are not speaking, except for work.

Her parents both know, as do a bunch of our friends.

We're going "home" for Christmas, and our MC recommended staying in the same place. I'm fine with it.

My wife is making an effort, in my mind, because she has realized what she had/has.

I want to get the texts off her phone and feel I'll know how far it went if I do.

I know everything isn't by the book, but every relationship is different. Thanksgiving was tough, maybe because it was a holiday I love. I've also had an emotional weekend for some reason, I guess I'm just going through stages of grief. I'm just rambling, I'll stop.

I've found EaseUS data recovery for iPhone's. Does anyone have any experience with this software? I'll wake up in the middle of the night to get the info off if I have to I guess.

They are not speaking, except for work.

And you know this how? You have zero knowledge of what goes on in the workplace.

Hi Masters,

If she's answering questions and saying she is telling you everything why do you have to sneak her phone to get the deleted messages. Download Fonelab or something similar and just hold out your hand. Tell her you are going to restore the deleted messages and she needs to give you the code to the phone if you don't already know it. Why are you being forced to do this secretly?

Exactly, if she claims to be transparent and honest why not just hand you her phone graciously and willingly ? You seem to be scared to ask her for it, tell her she's got 10 seconds to hand it to you unlocked.

I also agree with Marz, they should not be communicating in anyway period, otherwise the A may go deep underground or resume in the future, this is a recipe for disaster, one of them has to quit and if you can't get the POSOM fired then your WW should resign and find another job, yes another consequence of her huge betrayal.

I'm looking for proof it was more than she says it was. I don't think I'll find it. She's denied multiple times it went further than kissing. Could she be lying, yes. I know they had an emotional attachment, but I need to see to what extent. Why not ask for her phone, she wouldn't want to give it to me. It's cleaner if I get it and do the download to find the info I need. That's my thought anyway. The EaseUS has better reviews, I'm going to try that one.

And for those of you saying about talking at work, I guess I just have to trust her. I told his wife, so I feel as thought they are trying to repair their marriage. Maybe I'm wrong. I can't have a guarantee on everything.

Maybe I'll look back on everything and regret my decisions. However, I've researched a ton and have reached out to a bunch of people in similar circumstances. I'm doing my best and trying to keep it together.

I've tried EaseUs and Fonelab as well as other phone recovery software.

I've had the most luck with Fonelab.

Having said that, all of the phone recovery software works the same way, so give whatever you like a shot.

The only one I truly recommend against is Dr. Fone because I have found it crashes during recovery.

You will have to get her phone in the middle of the night because it take a while to scan and recover a phone.

Also, while you are doing that I suggest you scan any backups of her phone she has on her computer as well as her iCloud - I am assuming she has an iPhone.

Fonelab does all of the above and it has an Android version as well.

You will get no better advice, than from those on this forum.

You are making huge mistakes. Sorry,but you are. You believe your wife,marriage,affair,and circumstances are different. And,honestly, they are not.

The betrayed husbands who have the most success in reconciliation,are the ones who took a strong stance in the beginning. You are trying to nice her back. That never works. Women respect strength,not weakness. And cheating wives will take full advantage of their nice BH.

You think they are trying to to reconcile?

You are putting an awful lot of trust in two lying cheaters.

When you come back,and tell us we were right, I can promise you not one person will say they told you so. It happens all the time. We can see you headed towards the cliff,and can only scream at you to watch out. If you choose not to listen,we will be here to pick you up when you fall.

Why not make a polygraph a condition of attempting reconciliation? That will work better than trying to retrieve deleted messages.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:24 AM, December 2nd (Monday)]

She made a huge mistake, period.

You need to understand that what your WW did was no mistake. A mistake happens when someone does something unintentionally. She took a series of DECISIONS. When you say she made mistakes, you are excusing her behavior. She needs to own what she did so that it won’t happen again.

Let’s pretend your WW got a parking spot 1 second before someone else. The other guy, furious, punches your wife repeatedly in the face. She gets a broken nose, 3 broken teeth, and a black eye. Then the guy says: sorry, this was a huge mistake! It’s all forgiven right? No?

Like I said before, if you want her phone, ask her her phone! Tell her that you need to know what you are Reconciling with. If she refuses, then she doesn’t want to Reconcile. It’s that simple. There’s no need to scream, yell, beg or sneak. Calmly but firmly tell her your conditions for R.

Good luck...

Why not ask for her phone, she wouldn't want to give itto me

This says it all to me. A remorseful wayward spouse looking to repair the damage from her choice to cheat on her husband would make handing her phone over anytime asked for, one of the basics of a plan to rebuild.

You are driving reconciliation. Having the BS be the driver of the work never works unless the BS is willing to rug sweep and live with a wife who won’t help him heal, show true remorse, or make him ever feel safe again.

I hope at some point you change your approach to one that demands what you need In order to be happy and satisfied in your marriage, and to prepare to move on if she’s not able to provide that to the person who is supposed to be the most important in her life.

We’re glad to support you and help you do those things, but I hope you understand that we won’t cherry coat our thoughts when we can see your methods are unlikely to achieve the goals you have for yourself.

Sending you thoughts of strength.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:04 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

Masters,

Thank you for the update. We're rooting for you, and even though we don't know you we want to see you get clear of infidelity.

I think you know what I'm probably going to say, but I wanted to offer a few thoughts for you to reflect on:

1. We have your best interests at heart. Where your WW is concerned, as fellow BS's we don't have her best interests or her worst interests at heart. We're concerned about you. Period. We understand the shock, trauma, grief and (eventually) anger you are experiencing. It's awful and tragic and we want to prevent it from getting worse if possible.

2. I am not one to root for either D or R in these forums, unless in cases that are more clear cut and there aren't any kids, etc. Your situation could go in either direction, depending on whether your wife demonstrates real remorse and empathy. Right now, gently, candidly, she is NOT displaying either. I want you to get clear of infidelity, not rugsweep and not find yourself in painful limbo. However that happens in either a D or R scenario matters not to me.

3. While every situation is unique, there are commonalities that are so repetitive as to be nauseating. The same actions, behaviors, words and patterns repeated by WW's over and over -- down to the things that are said word for word in EVERY situation. So while your situation is unique to you, unfortunately your WW is not really that unique. She has said and done things word for word and action for action that are completely common and unremarkable. Really reflect on this, please. It is extremely difficult for a newly betrayed spouse to come to grips with a very hard truth: that their WW or WH is not special, and that their WH and WW is not the person they thought they were. She has shown you who she is. We all realize how ugly and jarring it is. She has shown you the deepest contempt and disrespect it is possible for a woman to do to a man. And she is continuing to do it. She also slept with him, or at the very least engaged in deeply sexual acts with him short of intercourse, and you can count on that based on what you've told us. But that's the truth, brother.

3a. There are also many commonalities in male-female dynamics and relations. These are truisms and clichés because they actually are true. One of these is that women don't respect weakness in men. In fact, it makes them feel very turned off. You are sending almost every signal you can to her that confirms her previous (wrong-headed but it's what she was thinking) assessment of you as a grocery store pack mule and chauffeur for her kids was RIGHT and that her assessment of her AP as an exciting, sexy, virile sexual plan A was also right. I know that's difficult to accept, but there's really no other explanation for the set of behaviors from her -- and you are digging the hole deeper.

4. The reason it is so difficult for you or anyone else to accept this is because you are an empathetic, caring, ethical individual who is experiencing cognitive dissonance -- a real and actual phenomenon happening in your brain right now. Your brain is having a hard time puzzling out that your wife is actually this person who did these things. But eventually -- and this part is REALLY important -- your brain WILL puzzle it out. When that happens you will be hit with an awful wave of anger and a series of undeniable epiphanies that will assault you relentlessly. Your physical brain will not let you off the hook. It will thrust this in your face and will remind you of it repeatedly. Why so? Because your brain is engineered to protect you at all costs. That is why we urge so strongly you avoid rugsweeping. It simply doesn't work -- for spiritual, physical, and psychological reasons. The important thing to keep in mind is that this isn't abstract emotions we're talking about here. It's actual brain function.

5. From what you have just told us, she is stonewalling you and you are unable or unwilling to carry out a hard confront regarding access to her phone. I get it. The reason I am so passionate about this is because I did precisely the same thing as you. Please, please hear me on this: You will regret this. It will come back and bite you in the posterior hard and once that tiger has hold of you, it will not let go. Also please reflect on what she is saying by stonewalling you. She is saying, in effect, "I will continue to manipulate you and gaslight you for my own benefit by parsing language and only providing access to a corner of the truth. I will manage your access to disclosure and information and you will either accept it or divorce me." I am asking for you to carefully consider this. WW's send very clear messages with their words and actions, and BH's (who are less adept at verbal manipulation) must pay careful attention to what WW's say and do.

6. Continuing marital counseling in these situations is almost universally agreed upon here at SI as being a tragic, horrible mistake that will only waste time and money. We've said this repeatedly. There is near uniform consensus on this. So while your situation is indeed unique, continuing to plow forward with MC is the equivalent of ignoring advice about needing to get your brakes checked on your car because they are about to fail. I can't overstate this enough.

7. The fact that she won't provide access to her phone willingly is even more egregious and proves beyond a doubt that she is continuing to mire herself in a wayward mindset. This is very dangerous for you.

8. The fact that they are still working together is also almost universally rejected in nearly every situation here on SI. Again there is near-universal consensus on this. And again, while you may believe your situation is unique, work-related affairs are so passingly common as to be among the most common. One of the first non-negotiables in almost every single work-related affair situation is that a wayward spouse must find other suitable employment. In your case, this is even more obvious given that the AP is a superior and the head of HR for her company. Yes, I do think you will regret this and I do believe you are setting yourself up for an even bigger heartbreak. But I can only tell you that. I hope I am wrong. You don't have access to her phone, so that you are able to state with such confidence as a "fact" that they aren't communicating is puzzling to me. How could you possibly know? You're trusting the same person who has revealed herself to be an ethically-challenged cheater who will lie to your face.

9. When you're ready, I believe you'll come around to understanding why demanding a WRITTEN narrative and polygraph from her, as well as demanding she take a full STD panel, is so important for your own sanity and peace of mind. By then, it may be too late to really ask for these things. I hope you consider pressing in on these things sooner rather than later.

Lastly this below observation is so very true. None of us is judging you and we will definitely NOT be saying "told you so" when the backlash happens. Just please trust us when say it will happen unless you snap out of it and get moving now.

When you come back,and tell us we were right, I can promise you not one person will say they told you so. It happens all the time. We can see you headed towards the cliff, and can only scream at you to watch out. If you choose not to listen, we will be here to pick you up when you fall.

As much as agape love is possible in an anonymous internet forum, we do practice it here. We're looking out for a fellow wounded human being, and we want the best for you. But that means pointing out as clearly and effectively as we can mistakes you are making.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:20 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

Have you looked into getting her a polygraph?

I know they had an emotional attachment

This is simply wrong and you know the facts already. It is heartbreaking to read this because it suggests you are still thinking this was "just an emotional affair."

By the way, most of us here in this thread are fellow men -- and I'd be willing to bet most of us heard this exact same lie from our wives.

Once the deep kissing barrier has been breached, it is a PHYSICAL AFFAIR. Full stop.

Deep kissing between a man and a woman is an intimate act of passion. It is an emotional, psychological, spiritual turn-on. In some ways it can be even more intimate than actual sexual intercourse.

But it's a fact that once that Rubicon has been passed, it's just a hop, skip and a jump to genital contact between an adult man and adult woman.

No woman will deep kiss a man she isn't attracted to, and isn't willing to sleep with. It may not happen right away, but once this boundary has been crossed both the man and woman are actively communicating with their actions that sex is on the table.

Please stop pretending otherwise.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:31 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

Hi Masters,

Glad you came back to post.

I asked every question I had. I realized I'm never going to get the answers I want.

I'm looking for proof it was more than she says it was. I don't think I'll find it. She's denied multiple times it went further than kissing. Could she be lying, yes. I know they had an emotional attachment, but I need to see to what extent.

And for those of you saying about talking at work, I guess I just have to trust her

Look at what you’re saying. What you’ve decided to do doesn’t make any sense. I feel like you’re so afraid of losing her that you’re willing to sweep it all under the rug and hope for best. You haven’t gotten the answers you deserve, but you’re making that OK. This is a long way from being over. Emotional attachments are really hard to cut off. I would almost guarantee that your wife stills has feelings for him and with easy access, this has a huge change of going underground and starting all over again. After the two of them have manipulated you and she’s lied to you repeatedly, you’re just going to have to trust her? What’s the temptation like when they see each other every day? What happens when she has to travel again and he can easily go if he wants? One final question – and I may have missed this – how on earth did he see the sunrise from you wife’s hotel room if he wasn’t there?

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is a slow motion train wreck and you’re the only one that can stop it.

Emotional attachments are really hard to cut off. I would almost guarantee that your wife stills has feelings for him and with easy access, this has a huge change of going underground and starting all over again. After the two of them have manipulated you and she’s lied to you repeatedly, you’re just going to have to trust her? What’s the temptation like when they see each other every day? What happens when she has to travel again and he can easily go if he wants? One final question – and I may have missed this – how on earth did he see the sunrise from you wife’s hotel room if he wasn’t there?

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is a slow motion train wreck and you’re the only one that can stop it.

And even if this doesn't happen -- and there's a HIGH likelihood it will -- your own brain will literally not accept it. You're willfully putting your physical brain (I'm talking about the actual neurons, synapses, cortex, amygdala) under undue pressure. Your brain will react by rejecting the lies you are telling yourself. If the brain is a kind of computer -- and in some ways it is -- it will "war game" what you're trying to feed it and eventually it will conclude your own interior monologue is unworkable. Then the fun really starts. I can't stress this enough.