SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks for the advice, but what is VAR'd? I looked at glossary of terms and can't find it.

Sorry. VAR is voice activated recorder.

Look up "Standard Evidence Post VAR" on Google and you'll get a hit that provides an instant How-to guide. I followed the advice to a T and got hard evidence.

VARs are cheap. Go to Best Buy. Get some black durable tape to cover the display and also program it not to light up. Get a cheap pair of headphones, plug them into the headphone jack and clip them. This prevents inadvertent audible playback. Get some industrial strength velcro strips (Wal Mart) and put one side on the VAR and another strip wherever you want to place them.

Place them in car (you're smart and can figure out best place) bedroom, bathroom, wherever your WW has conversations.

Set to record for days. Leave for days, a week or more. Retrieve when full.

If you do VAR, you're going to be gobsmacked at the clarity and precision. It's like being in the same room and listening.

It's kind of scary actually how easy it is and how good the technology is. It amazes me that half the population engages in adultery now that text retrieval software, keystroke monitoring, VARs, GPS trackers and more are now widely available.

Adulterers on sick sites like reddit's "adultery" community will compare notes and talk to each other about "OPSEC" (operational security) ways they have of trying to evade location trackers, using burner phones -- but the truth is that betrayed spouses are increasingly getting good advice and finding the truth they need to regain equilibrium and deal with reality. I mean, just read the reddit adultery forum and you'll get some great tips on how to catch adulterers red-handed from their own words.

Adulterers think they can keep it secret. It always comes out.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:23 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

What I'm getting at here is, she takes full responsibility for her affair, but always points it back to the situation we were in, and says it was bound to happen. BS, you don't cheat when the going gets tough, you work on it with your spouse, the person you married. Or you end it if you're not happy.

I know a couple other people have responded to this, too but NO. No she is not 'taking full responsibility for her affair' if she is still pointing that arrow to anything but her own fucked up self. It had nothing to do with the 'situation you were in'. It was not 'bound to happen'. It wasn't 'a mistake' or any other some-such euphemism. She made shitty and repeated choices to engage in this behavior. Period.

The second part of the above quote is correct. HER CONTINUED MINIMIZATION IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Healthy people with a modicum of decency and self-awareness do not choose to cheat.

Masters, I did put on the non negotiables using retrieval software with her knowledge on her phone.

But in this phase you're in, you might just consider getting her phone while she's in the shower or asleep and running retrieval software on it without her knowledge.

In any case, don't use Dr. Fone. There is a better retrieval software others here on SI recommend I can't remember the name of. I'll try to find it and post the name later.

If someone else on this thread can remember the name of the superior retrieval software, please post it for Masters here.

Your biggest error is not informing the company.

Don’t want to bash you over this but you are making one very big mistake. He should be exposed to the CEO. Have you sent an email detailing what’s happened? Has your attorney sent a letter? Why are you hesitating? He is a superior and he will lose his job. Your wife will keep her job. They must never work again in the same workplace. Why is this hard for you to understand? He abused his position to have an affair with your wife (they most definitely had sex, even if you’re telling yourself otherwise) and then abused you by mocking you about jobs and interviews. You must act on this if not for your honour and family’s honour, at least to save some other family from this. If there are no professional repercussions for this asshole, he will do it again.

[This message edited by Mene at 3:51 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

Why are they STILL at the same workplace? Do you honestly think they have no contact given your wife’s lame R attempt? Please, wake up. We are trying to help you and you’re making some pretty bad decisions. You need to be decisive. This fucker tried to screw you badly. Professionally, he should be destroyed for using company funds and time to conduct an affair with a subordinate.

Fonelab is the software name I was looking for. It's been discussed here on SI as superior and can retrieve from iCloud if used in Mac/iOS version -- assuming your WW has an iPhone.

I also agree with Mene. Your biggest shock and awe arrow in your quiver is to simultaneously blow up AP's life with an alienation of affection lawsuit and get a complaint going against his company for his improper relationship with your WW while stringing you along for job interviews. It's completely off the charts toxic predatory behavior for an HR VP.

If you get going on filing D, separation agreement that favors your custody rights, alienation of affection lawsuit and workplace action ... you will completely implode the fantasy of the affair.

Once her plan A fantasy is demolished in front of her eyes, she'll likley come back to you -- the loyal hardworking hubsand she viewed with disdain as her plan B chauffer/pack mule beta provider.

Your WW will change her tune overnight -- then, like I said, you can decide if you want to try to reconcile with this dumb ass or not. And if she doesn't change her tune, you'll know it was an exit affair and your decision to D becomes that much easier.

But this only happens if you start moving. NOW.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:59 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

Masters one more reason to think about exposing to the CEO. Honestly - think about how much information the head of HR would be privy to. Are you a beneficiary on any of your wife's stuff? 401k? Life insurance? If so, bday, SSN, phone numbers, addresses, emails are all at his disposal...... That is why there are such strict policies in place for people in HR. They have access to A LOT of potentially dangerous information. This guy sounds like a scumbag of the highest order anyways. What's to stop him opening a credit card under your name? Taking out a loan?

Part of the reason to expose is because it would be extremely psychologically beneficial to you (not to mention monetarily - and D's are pricey), but also because from a moral standpoint, this asshole HR guy should clearly not be trusted in a position that sensitive. If I were a CEO, I would want to know. That is a lawsuit in the making. And a HUGE liability to the entire company.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 4:11 PM, November 18th (Monday)]

Not so strange to desire physical touch, Masters. My top two (tied) love languages are words of affirmation and physical touch. Bottom 2 are also tied and are acts of service and gifts. Everyone likes acts of service and gifts but I would give them up for my top two.

Thumos mentioned Hosea. The Christian community which I belong to frequently do harm to the betrayed. Whether it's referencing Hosea or forgive and forget or the wayward is so sorry and trying so hard they are encouraging rugsweeping.

I believe you need to forgive for yourself to rid yourself of the heavy weight. IN TIME. WHEN IT'S RIGHT. My anger mostly disappeared when I finally did forgive my WW. It wasn't a total forgiveness, either. It was a progressive forgiveness through stages. It took some time to get there.

I would recommend you read Thumos's posts one page back. They are the two long ones. They are full of wisdom and are good guidance for all new to this shit show of adultery.

Thumos mentioned Hosea. The Christian community which I belong to frequently do harm to the betrayed. Whether it's referencing Hosea or forgive and forget or the wayward is so sorry and trying so hard they are encouraging rugsweeping.

I'm Catholic. My priest told me that Hosea was commanded by God to marry a prostitute for a specific purpose, not to be an example to all married men who have adulterous wives. That story is used too broadly, from what he says.

Agreed, Westway. Hosea didn't want to do it but followed God's command.

There’s some very thought out posts for you to read here. I usually prefer short to the point posts (not that there’s anything wrong with long posts).

Here’s my take:

- one of the most essential part of a marriage is trust

- your WW is not telling you the truth, she is not trustworthy

- your WW takes full responsibility except that she doesn’t

- you are still in infidelity

If or when your WW gives you the truth and takes responsibility for her decisions and actions you can consider R. Right now she is not.

Get out of infidelity. Move towards D, today (not next year).

She still defends her position, we only kissed a few times, it's because you weren't giving me what I needed

Another thing that needs to be said is that she is rewriting the history of the marriage. You don’t provide details of what she’s saying but I can fill in the blanks in my own mind and so can others here because we’ve heard it ourselves. 95 percent of it is lies she is telling herself and told herself.

Just remember — you were in the marriage too, and you know what it was like. You know it was good, but like all things in this life it wasn’t easy. You know you were loyal. You know you were building a family and a life. Don’t let her gaslight you into believing something about your marriage that isn’t true.

Most marriages are not bad marriages. Most are not mediocre. They are good marriages that could be better. Infidelity happens in good marriages all the time - in fact, I suspect this is more often the case than not. And I believe it’s what happened to you bc it’s what happened to me. This logically means that the adulterous spouse opened a good marriage to sin (or harmful action, whatever term you like) and willfully wrecked it. The old saw about being 50 percent responsible for problems in a marriage is true, but I think it’s unhelpful bc it implies something was wrong with the marriage that could be conflated with the adultery.

I adamantly reject this. A minority of marriages are bad and a somewhat larger sliver are mediocre. We have a 50 percent divorce rate because people are lazy, not because 50 percent of marriages are bad. Incidentally, most divorces are initiated by women — and this can be directly tied back to unrealistic Hollywood rom-com fairytale expectations.

I believe that the therapeutic community is beginning to acknowledge this reality, but there are still many practitioners who’ve bought into the old conventional wisdom, which was often based on adulterers coming into their offices and spinning false stories. They said the marriage was bad so gullible therapists went along with that.

Don’t let your wife off the hook here. And don’t do marital counseling. MC would have been for the marriage she just murdered. Find an IC for yourself who specializes in betrayal trauma and infidelity - there are likely several in your region.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:25 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

There is no such thing as, "I take full responsibility but you, the marriage, and my work environment made me do it." That's what taking zero responsibility and lying to you about it looks like. Don't mistake her lies for the truth or think that she's "getting it" just because she said something correct without really believing it.

In order to R you need:

- The truth and honesty moving foward

- Accountability

- Transparency: access to her phone, emails, social media accounts, etc.

- NC with the OM which means she needs to leave her current job

- Her willingness to put you first and do whatever you need her to do for R

Currently you have none of that. Not even a little bit. R is impossible in your shoes. You have nothing to lose by separating and everything to gain including your dignity, self respect, peace, and there's a small chance she will pull her head out of her rear and start making better choices too.

Sorry. VAR is voice activated recorder.

Look up "Standard Evidence Post VAR" on Google and you'll get a hit that provides an instant How-to guide. I followed the advice to a T and got hard evidence.

VARs are cheap. Go to Best Buy. Get some black durable tape to cover the display and also program it not to light up. Get a cheap pair of headphones, plug them into the headphone jack and clip them. This prevents inadvertent audible playback. Get some industrial strength velcro strips (Wal Mart) and put one side on the VAR and another strip wherever you want to place them.

Place them in car (you're smart and can figure out best place) bedroom, bathroom, wherever your WW has conversations.

Set to record for days. Leave for days, a week or more. Retrieve when full.

Thumos gave you some good advice here except the part in bold. Clip first, then plug in. I know of one occurrence where plugging in then clipping killed the var.

I'm reading here and wondering why you're not doing the 180, Masters? You're going to parties and trying to act in front of others like everything is fine. You're asking her to continue with your Christmas plans like she's your best friend. WTH? What are you doing? I'd highly suggest you stop with the nice-guy crap and get angry. You're saying that you want things back like they were but you're not doing the hard work on your end to make that happen. The hard work is where you get angry and detach. Employ the 180 and only communicate with her about the kids or finances. Don't invite her to go anywhere with you. Exclude her from your life. Move her out of your bedroom. Suggest she find an apartment to move into. The holidays are no excuse. Your behavior just shows that you want her to pick you and sooth your troubled brow and at every turn she's telling you directly and forcefully that she doesn't like your nice-guy bullsh*t. Believe what she's telling and showing you. Show her that you have a backbone and that you're not putting up with her stupidity. Show her that you're willing and happy to kick her cheating a$$ to the curb and the sooner the better. Give her some consequences that affect her daily life. She's not your friend. She's not your soul partner. She can't be counted on or trusted. She's not even your wife now since she broke her vows by screwing the other man (her behavior shows that she did screw him). The longer you delay is the longer your life is in disarray. You're the only one that can stop the pain and insanity. You've got to not only get yourself out of infidelity but you've got to take your life back. There's no magic fix for this problem. It takes hard painful work. Don't allow yourself to wallow in self pity. Get strong and take immediate, decisive action.

I wish the best for you Masters. Please get your head in the game not only for your sake but for everyone involved. You are the prize. You have more value than you're giving yourself credit for. Treat yourself like you would your best friend. You're worth it. Take care of yourself.

Masters, anything new? How are you?

Things are calming down a bit. We had a huge fight on Saturday, as I mentioned. We said we were not going to talk about it this week, mostly me, because I can't handle much more. She started two conversations on Monday and Tuesday evening, which both turned into tough discussions. Wednesday, she wrote me an email and I think she's turned over a leaf. I mentioned on Monday that I think I want to separate, which is probably when it hit home for her. She apologized for everything, and admitted it was 100% her fault. She said she's sorry for what she said on Saturday, and basically realized she's been a real jerk. I think it continues to hit her, honestly.

We were supposed to have a weekend out of town and go to a football game (with her parents and my kids). However, she got word yesterday that her grandma is in bad shape and might not make it through the weekend. So, plans have changed a bit.

Other things:

-I've thought about trying to get all her text messages off her phone that have been deleted, still undecided. I looked into FoneLab and don't know if I have the IT expertise to do it. I can get her phone away from a bit, but not any big length of time. Honestly, as much as I want to know, I know it will break me again.

-Just today, I talked to the AP's wife. I wanted to know what he told her about what happened, etc. The story was very similar and she says he said nothing happened except kissing, and was very adamant about it.

-We're going to counseling and I'm starting IC next week.

-We're not going to separate until we figure out where we are. It would cost a fortune, and I want to see my kids everyday. We're going to reevaluate after the holidays.

-I still need to see an employment attorney to see about a lawsuit, I've been swamped at work lately.

Basically, I've resigned myself to not get separated and see if there's a chance for this marriage. I'm getting better every day and have hope for the future, whatever path we choose. The holidays should be interesting, but I'm hoping time away will be good for everyone. I have no idea what 2020 looks like, but I guess that's part of life, taking it one day at a time.

Like the button in The Truman Show, "How's it going to end?" I don't know, but then again, none of us do.

Peace and Love

You should not have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what is in her deleted text messages. If she wants to reconcile (and you are willing to consider giving her that gift), then one of the many, many steps she will need to take is full disclosure including giving you full and complete/unfettered access to her phone, at any time, upon request. Translation: she must help you recover the deleted texts, if that is your desire - and I strongly encourage you too. It will be very difficult to decide whether to R or D if you do not have all of the facts.

You should not be in MC (marriage counseling), only IC for each of you. The marriage is not the problem. She is. MC is for treating a marriage.

Gently, I think you need to tread very carefully here with the pathway you're lighting ahead of yourself here. What you have written strikes me as classic rugsweeping. All of the consequences of her A are disappearing, you are agreeing not to separate, you are putting the broken egg back together and hoping no one will notice, including yourself. It is just not likely to work.

I'm glad your WW is saying it's her fault, apologizing, etc. That is 1 of 1,000 steps that will need to happen if you decide to R. Don't mistake this regret she's experiencing from real remorse.