SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just saw this and I feel the same way. My wife thinks everything is great, it's over and we are stronger than ever. If I even hint about something about her affair, she goes balisstic and says "I thought we were doing great?". It's just not worth it. She has no idea I really have no feelings for her anymore. the thought of the things she did with him and said killed everything. The more time goes on, the less I feel. I don't hate her or wish her any ill will, it's just that before I worshiped the ground she walked on and the thought of her always made me horny. Now, It's a chore to even do anything with her as there are no real sexual feeling there anymore. She killed it by acting like a dog in heat with him and a nun with me.

Why do I stay, because at 60, it's impossible to lose everything you worked your whole life for and start over. I got dealt a shit hand and I am stuck with it.

NotMyFirstRodeo, is it strange to say that was gorgeous communication?

OIN, what I would have to do to myself, my basic wiring, to have even really wanted to love that person again the way I had before, would have been extreme and really not something I'm interested in. There are things about me that I do not want to change. Plenty that I do, sure, but not that. The things about me that I would have changed to be capable of loving that hard after that kind of betrayal would have destroyed some of my better qualities that have kept me safe in other times of my life. It would have destroyed too much of my core personality. That's just me, not everyone. I am self-aware enough to know that I am not the most compassionate and forgiving person here. Many of you are better people than I am in some ways. We are all different people and we have different things at our core that make us who we are. Some good, some bad. I have changed many things about myself through the years, but there are aspects of my personality that are fundamental and hard-wired that it would not be in my self-interest to screw with, certainly not for the purpose of trying to save a marriage with someone who cheated on me. My XWH was not a candidate for R. It was clear to me early on that I wasn't either.

Why do I stay, because at 60, it's impossible to lose everything you worked your whole life for and start over. I got dealt a shit hand and I am stuck with it.

Brother, this is negative self talk. I'm about to turn 50. So by math I'm only four years younger than you. You won't lose everything. But I'm pretty sure you will regain your self-respect.

Notmyfirstrodeo - I don't want to threadjack but I also want to say that was wonderful communication. I know it comes from a painful place, but I do think that as a WS sometimes we think we are doing the right things and cannot realize some of the adjustments we need to make without this kind of communication. Even with the best of all intentions. This is exactly the kind of feedback that is needed for R. We can try, but we will never be mind readers.

For my H, there was a time he would say I brought it up too much. I would read here and go home and ask him more specific questions rather than the generic check in. As we have communicated very strongly like you have in this letter there was much healing in that itself. I wanted to do the right things, but you are right we are not the ones who experienced them. And, even if we did experience the exact same thing - we would likely not react to it the same way or want the same things.

The other thing that I think is hard for both the BS and the WS is the relationship is so much more intense because there is so much more awareness and vigilence. The easy auto-pilot parts go away and it makes it seem harder. For us, there has been a mental adjustment to that, and we had to put effort into just getting that lightness back. We still have moratoriums when we go away for a weekend or on vacation where we just resolve we are going away just to be us again. I think earlier on it's harder to leave the hard stuff behind. But, we relish in those times now and it helps us carry that part back to our marriage.

R is not easy, and I do think that often two people are not on the same page after. It takes a WS who is willing to listen and be open, but it takes a BS who is willing to do that as well and it's hard to get to that point.

It's been a very good discussion.

[This message edited by Vomitousmass at 10:08 PM, December 10th (Thursday)]

An assumption that could generate that phrase is that every relationship - life - is static

That's a bit of a straw man because that isn't the assumption that generated the phrase.

You can continue to look for new ways to punish WSes with words in an anonymous Internet forum, or you can resolve your own pain. Your choice.

False dichotomy and a straw man both! You're getting good at this.

It's a straw man to project onto others the intent you wish to ascribe.

It's a false dichotomy to say one must choose between offering blunt, unvarnished advice in an anonymous internet forum or resolve your own pain. No such binary choice exists.

This:

From not my first Rodeo:

I do not believe it possible for my WW to ever understand the damage done to my mind. In this way, I feel she's far too quick about "moving on" and I have told her exactly that. As a matter of fact I sent her this message a few days ago when I reached a break point, stopped responding to her and she became unsettled:

"I'm in an awful place. It feels like our relationship is stuck in a wash, rinse, repeat cycle and it's maddening for me. I don't want to have the kids feel I am angry with them or that I think they are bad so I am at the shop.

Communication is getting worse for us, not better. I hear you ask me, "is there anything you want to talk about?" But if I'm open with you about it, I feel like you dread me actually taking you up on the question...and that you know I feel that way. Yet, the duty to ask has been completed, it can be checked off the to-do list and no more effort is necessary because, technically, you already asked me. Sex is introduce as a conflict-sedative and then "all is well" for a time. So my insides build up because there is no real emotional communication for me and I am left feeling emotionally stranded.

From when you opened a dialog with me in Feb. 2019 through Oct. 2019, you asked me "is there anything you want to talk about/ask me" countless times. I can't speak of how genuinely you ask me these days. But in 2019 I learned how my questions didn't merit honest answers, expressing my well-founded doubt was discredited and my feelings were punishments according to you. So now I don't speak regardless of how terrible I may feel and you don't do more than repeat a question that you know I'll not speak on. Because I perceive that you understand this cycle, and real communication is nonexistent, this becomes my reality. My gut feels like you want to avoid hearing my pain because it makes you feel bad and if that comes at an emotional cost to me you ignore that. But this is not a new thing I am sharing with you. I've shared this how many times now?

In general, the most I can bring myself to express is how I feel about stuff around the house. When I start to feel as though my superficial expressions about the house are not respected, everything just becomes too much again and the feelings of being alone are compounded. I've expressed how the long history of you treating me unwelcome in the very homes I worked hard(which was simultaneously under fire/mocked) to pay for created scar tissue. You may see home/kid things as very minor but I lived feeling very disrespected by you for many years and even though I'm not going to beg you for respect or shed a tear about it, that doesn't mean I'll ignore the implications of disrespect. It becomes just another problem to deal with.

I also see the good when you step out of your comfort zone for me. But shortly after you start to do things which show me effort in the areas I need it most, you always stop. You always have a reason or excuse for halting....but still, the effort ends. I don't bring it up and it remains halted. But if I express myself, it's "punishment", you turtle up, we have sex...wash, rinse, repeat... The same way I came home last week and you told me how you can't listen to the audio book anymore because it makes you feel bad and is too much. When you did this you were even a bit hot towards me and said how I "constantly bring the audio book up" which was not accurate. I've keenly paid attention to when I have said anything about audio books, videos, websites, etc. But what exactly do you think it is that I live with every day [WW's name]? Do you believe that as you can make a choice to not listen to an audio book, I can decide to not expose myself to all the things done to me that make me feel awful? That I can flip a switch and the thing that wants to harm me is no longer effective? When you do things like this you are essentially saying that you'd rather not experience my pain and you're good with me being stranded on an emotional island.

When I look at how this cycle continues I ask myself, why at the core of our relationship do I feel no more able to openly speak with you than I did a year ago? Why does it feel like my wife is unwilling to expose herself to the pain she was the source of? Why do I feel as though I am traveling this road of betrayal recovery alone?

Now this is out of the way, I am getting back to work in the shop to try and keep my mind occupied with something productive."

Yesterday, I think my words began to actually sink in and I've seen a quality change in attitude. Right now, I am not getting my hopes up. I've seen flashes in the pan...but I am open to change also.

I don't know any of you but I do have buddies who experienced something similar and I've observed men suffer in a way woman just don't understand when it comes to a BS (...not that they don't have their own version which is the same VS husbands). If I had to guess, I would guess that many BH's could echo my sentiment (at some point) in this message I gave my WW. Some may opt to check out before this type of conversation happens. Other BH's may say it, it fall on deaf ears and they tire of repeating themselves. The best would be for a WW to step out of her comfort zone and learn to really try to empathize with the man she damaged. But there may be a circumstance/group of BH's for which my words would never apply.

Anyone that experiences anything similar to WWTL ...I just don't know... My man, I read your story and it's so very very awful. Not just because of how it played out but the outright tragedy of the circumstances and how you speak of it after walking away (the love you had for her appears to still be there but appears to be damaged beyond repair). To know that kind of love and have it ripped away for something so temporary and stupid... you've my empathy and it breaks my heart for you.

One can move on with life and be happy - even when staying with the person "who did them in."

Doff of the Fedora to My First for putting into words far better than I regarding the cucked BS is never again going to be in the same place. Under this - the question is "why we stay." (Finances be damned)

WWTL - five years of trying and sill on his mind I bet every day.

OIN:

"How is this tragedy any different than a debilitating car accident leaving you profoundly changed?"

I understand where you're coming from but one is the result of a choice (made repeatedly) made by the single most important person in a persons life and the other can be made in human error in an instance and yet result in life-long changes. We are all human and so we err. But to err is not quite the same as to punish through selfishness....repeatedly.

But if I express myself, it's "punishment", you turtle up, we have sex...wash, rinse, repeat...

Hmm seems so familiar. Why, it's almost as if WW's do the same things over and over.

Could that be?

I believe this is called p*ssy-bombing in the vernacular.

The same way I came home last week and you told me how you can't listen to the audio book anymore because it makes you feel bad and is too much. When you did this you were even a bit hot towards me and said how I "constantly bring the audio book up" which was not accurate. I've keenly paid attention to when I have said anything about audio books, videos, websites, etc. But what exactly do you think it is that I live with every day [WW's name]? Do you believe that as you can make a choice to not listen to an audio book,

And again so familiar.

My WW told me Linda McDonald's book was "guilt-trippy" and that she was overwhelmed and didn't have time to read all of the articles I sent to her, and yet she found time to read through a particular novelist's entire oeuvre that same year..... and when I sent her a podcast on betrayal trauma she accused me of implying she was a sex addict.

One of the challenges of posting, and I see it all the time with other people's posts as well, is when people literally see what they want to see in a post and skip the rest.

As I said:

That is why R is always possible if both people really want it.

Nothing radical there. If you want it, and you have a WS proving themselves as well, then you can rebuild. It is a lot of work. You don't have to want it, and many times a WS isn't capable of doing the work. Then it's a non-starter.

If you felt that powerful and pure love before then you can feel it again, with the WS or with someone new.

You can go this direction, too. You can rebuild yourself and find new, powerful love, even better than the original relationship you had. If you want that for yourself and are willing to fight for it.

Permanent misery is a choice, while temporary misery is not. Giving up your dreams is a choice, losing your dreams and having to develop new ones is not.

We're all victims at first. But for how long? That's up to you.

R is not easy, and I do think that often two people are not on the same page after. It takes a WS who is willing to listen and be open, but it takes a BS who is willing to do that as well and it's hard to get to that point.

Yep. Very hard.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:42 PM, September 17th (Thursday)]

DevistatedDee

"NotMyFirstRodeo, is it strange to say that was gorgeous communication?"

Thanks for the kind words but I'm just a scrapper struggling to maintain a marriage I've adored and worked hard for and one that I can't speak in absolute terms as to how my WW views it yet. Also, I want to break a cycle of the instability divorce makes for children (almost identical to my what my siblings and I faced). Maybe I can write okay copy, but it all comes from a simple man who is prepared to fight for what's best for us and not just do what's easy for me. Leaving would definitely be easy and I've not ruled it out. But before I do roll out, I am prepared to give it my due diligence and rest easier knowing I spared no practical expense in saving what I loved. Then I can live without regret. If I had to guess, many BS's fully understand this sentiment.

hikingout

"I don't want to threadjack but I also want to say that was wonderful communication. I know it comes from a painful place, but I do think that as a WS sometimes we think we are doing the right things and cannot realize some of the adjustments we need to make without this kind of communication. Even with the best of all intentions. This is exactly the kind of feedback that is needed for R. We can try, but we will never be mind readers."

Thank you for taking the time to share that with me. My WW comes from a family which will avoid conflict at a high cost. So I empathize with her that she was raised in a wildly different house than mine. I come from a loud family which speaks their minds but holds no resentment for mistakes. The possible conflict between us is obvious to a critical thinker. While you appear to come from a similar home as I, the situation is parallel to ours; differences in communication do not equate to a lack of affection (regardless of mistakes).

My W appears to be taking my last words to heart and I pray she does. I perceive she's not aware of exactly how prepared I am of doing whatever I must do right now...

Hippo16

"One can move on with life and be happy - even when staying with the person "who did them in."

Different strokes, different folks my man. I am one of those "successful" guys that is 100% prepared to live in a cardboard box if I must. But after rug-sweeping the first version of betrayal in 2007, I am not prepared to ignore my gut twice for the long haul. I'd rather be alone than be married an lonely. Simultaneously, why would I deny the possibility of being happy with my less-than-perfect WW if I felt she made the right effort(etc.)? IF I can be happy with her and not be a fool, I am pleased to accept that. But that's not a guarantee and I can accept whatever our eventuality is. Whatever that is, I will not feel as though I could have given more effort and I know this cost me valuable time. But my and my children's happiness is worth the relatively minor cost to me in the meantime.

I don't blame anyone that won't put up with the bs a BS created in even a single and simple scenario. But I also get that some things are worth fighting for before moving on.

OIN, maybe some of what is quoted is purely in-context of the quoted? We could qualify any statement with "if this is your situation and you feel identical to me:", but we can't.

None of what you say is absolutely untrue nor true. But as I have aged I have appreciated my newer-found ability to apply the philosophies which are most appropriate to me and ignore the stuff that isn't quite the applicable.

At any rate, your feedback is appreciated by this simpleton.

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 6:22 PM, September 17th (Thursday)]

You can go this direction, too. You can rebuild yourself and find new, powerful love, even better than the original relationship you had. If you want that for yourself and are willing to fight for it.

If this is presented as a possibility and not a certainty, I think I get it.

But if this is presented as an absolute: both are willing to fight for it, therefore it is guaranteed - well then, that sounds like a fairy tale.

My ability to believe in fairy tales ended on March 6th 2016

Rodeo, I got side tracked after your first post, but I wanted to also comment that what you posted was really great. You laid out in no uncertain terms what you are looking for. In your case, and in so many others, what the WS spouse promises right after DDay somehow seems to quickly be forgotten. The WS falls to their knees, begging to do anything, then in a few months or years falls back into the same awful habits that got them into trouble in the first place.

I have seen countless stories here that follow the same paths. It’s not dissimilar to what prompted this thread to begin with. I really think that many WS simply do not get that them screwing someone else causes long term damage. It’s the mindset of he or she is gone, I’m now a good girl or boy, why can’t we just sweep this under the rug. I’m over it, so you should be too. They just don’t get it.

I hate to say it, but some, not all WS need to treated like children. Too often the BS is embarrassed or scared the WS will leave, so the WS has no consequences for what they have done. And by consequences I don’t mean “seeing my BS so upset was painful”. Painful? How about picturing your spouse in bed screwing someone else.

I hope she realizes what she is playing with here. And not just being better for a few weeks. Like totally changing. The book excuse was a great example. We aren’t asking them to wear a Scarlet Letter. Just read, and in this case even easier, listen to a book.

Thanks for acknowledging my situation, and again, sorry I glossed over it. Just got sidetracked by the post that followed.

OIN, again I think your thoughts about R if both people want it is just too simplistic. Maybe not for you, but for many here the wounds are just too deep. I have said this before. My EX deserves happiness,we all do. She just doesn’t deserve it from me after what she did. Actions like I said have consequences.

To the others like 99, I’m not saying you need to divorce, but you need to have honest conversations like rodeo. If you rug sweep,why wouldn’t they? Life is too short to settle. To the BS’s here that are suffering in silence, don’t. If it hurts their feelings to bring it up, too fucking bad. Did they think of you when they were having their fun. Hell no.

crazyinlove1995, you have a pm

Lawdog,

I have to ask, did you ever text Fww a smiley face?

Betrayed WIFE here. With the exception of the phrases about feeling unwelcome in his own home, I have experienced EVERY SINGLE THING that NotMyFirstRodeo said in his letter to his WS. I could say EXACTLY the same thing to my WH today.... closer to 3yrs post dday than two. And I know plenty of betrayed WIVES that would say the same. Just bc your WS happens to be a woman, doesn't mean there aren't PLENTY of wayward SPOUSES exhibiting the same bullshit behaviors that happen to be MEN. There is a difference between saying MY WW/WH and THE WW/WH.

And yet... we have to contend with things like "pussybombing"

Dafuq??

So if I have sex with my WH and he's still a horse's ass and thinks that bc I "put out" for him that all is well, have I been dickbombed? I don't think so.... i'd like to think most folks are smarter than that.

As to the ability to R if BOTH want it - I agree. I truly believe that the ability to love our WS again - as much as or better than before the A(s) is within the realm of possibility. But I also believe that happens ONLY when the WS is able to deconstruct the person they are/became and reconstruct into someone with VERY different ways of thinking and being, basically from the ground up (IMHO that is sure as heck what a BS has to do to heal). It's like a stroke victim that has to learn how to speak again. The problem is that many/most WS will not do the hard work to take the M "house" down to the studs & foundation. They basically put on a new coat of paint, and the BS -desperate for SOMETHING different - mistakes that new coat of paint for something deeper and more solid. There have been times when I was 'charmed' into thinking a splash of paint was 'progress' from my WH. Thankfully, they didn't last too long.

However, the whole "your choice to heal" strikes me as taking a kernel of truth and contorting it into something that implies fault and blame and a bunch of other projection. I felt that my reaction to dday was MY problem.... MY fault. That if could "just" x or y or z, I'd be better, I'd be able to function, I'd be able to manage some of the overwhelming feelings - like I had been able to do with every other curveball of my entire life. It wasn't until maybe a year after dday, when I read "the body keeps the score", that I realized what a complete cluster this has done to my fucking BRAIN WIRING... trauma can change us on a CELLULAR level - which blew my mind (and don't get me started on the concept of the hereditary nature of trauma). Of COURSE there has to be desire to heal. Of COURSE we have to work on ourselves. But implying that you can let it go if you just "choose" it is shortsighted IMHO. It was ONLY after I realized the depth of trauma impact that I could even contemplate self compassion for the all of my trauma response.

And for me personally, all of this takes place against the backdrop of a half-assed WS who readily proclaims he wants to do the work, but has yet to show solid progress on any front, something which I believe can have quite an impact on the BS' healing (at least until he/she can get pretty clear about emotional detachment - which over time, decreases possibility for R even if the WS were to finally figure their shit out).

But for how long? That's up to you

Actually, I don't think so, and the three trauma IC's I've seen since dday don't think so either (not to mention the plethora of literature on the subject). What takes person A 1 year to heal from, may take person B a decade - despite true desire and near constant effort. There are a TON of factors that go into that. It takes as long as it takes. For some of us, that can be really long. Trauma is a goddamn BITCH.

What takes person A 1 year to heal from, may take person B a decade - despite true desire and near constant effort. There are a TON of factors that go into that. It takes as long as it takes. For some of us, that can be really long. Trauma is a goddamn BITCH.

For sure. But the amount of time, effort, thought, processing, and intentional work toward healing will greatly reduce the amount of time it would have taken otherwise. Those working hard are controlling the timeline by healing as quickly as they are able. Those doing nothing but waiting and stewing are destined to suffer longer than they would have with sincere and intentional effort, possibly forever.

It is not about competing with someone else or with father time; it's about doing the best you can do, giving yourself every opportunity to live your best life. I think we bring ourselves a lot of peace when we are proud of our choices and effort. We only answer to ourselves, reach our own goals. There is no timeline, no perfection.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:29 PM, September 17th (Thursday)]

What is interesting here is all the perspectives, perhaps one issue is that there are too many aspects to infidelity for our minds to hold simultaneously and process. Which may be why it sometimes takes decades to come to a decision.

This may be even more true for people lacking the collective insights of a website like this one. Or who stumble upon this website decades after the fact.