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Wayward Side :
Building Intimacy

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xhz700 ( member #44394) posted at 5:46 PM on Friday, October 4th, 2019

you are right it's always a dealbreaker, you have to build a new deal afterwards

Really, hikingout said it best here. There are a number of problems with reconciliation, and I am going to try to give you a compassionate, if not a little uncomfortable idea of how I see it.

Facts:

1. What you had is gone, and it is never coming back.

2. Your affair has permanently altered the way that your BH sees you.

3. He will never really trust that you won't do this again, nor will he trust anyone the same way he trusted you ever again.

There is good and bad to these statements, unfortunately mostly bad. I lost a lot of naive hopefulness that I had when I was cheated on. While it's good that I am less naive and more protective of myself, I really miss the optimistic romantic that I once was.

Wounds leave scars. This is, in my opinion, the worst wound that one can get. And we try to mend while having to look at the person that did this to us. It's profoundly sad and isolating. It's irrational.

Worst part yet, he probably doesn't tell you, not because he's being a typical guy, but because he loves you and doesn't know how to tell you this without hurting you.

There is hope. I suspect that you are doing the same thing that he is doing. You're probably holding back out of a fear of being rejected, now or later. I can't imagine a fear like that, I've never cheated, I don't know. All I can tell you is that he doesn't need to have that fear. He knows exactly what it feels like to be rejected.

Refocus yourself. How can you show vulnerability so that he might feel comfortable doing the same? How can you sell him on the idea that the new MrsWalloped is better than the old MrsWalloped? How can you make him believe that your relationship can be better than the old one was? Most importantly, what can you do to make yourself believe those things.

All that we can control is ourselves. You can't control how Walloped responds, but you can put all of yourself out there without knowing how he will respond. You have to put yourself in the same peril that he lived through, and commit yourself to the same risk, in order to give anything beyond just reconciliation a chance.

Behold! The field in which I grow my fucks.

Lay thine eyes upon it, and thou shalt see that it is barren.

posts: 1586   ·   registered: Aug. 5th, 2014
id 8447366
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Morph ( member #48221) posted at 7:26 PM on Friday, October 4th, 2019

I joined SI a little before Walloped, so his/ your story is part of mine because he and his posts expressed many of the things I experienced in real time. I can still see parallels in your lives with mine. I too don’t initiate. I’ve lost something and it won’t come back.

My M is mostly good and was when he had his A. We always have been very compatible. I stay for that reason and that we have a good life, but I miss my old M. I can’t respect my H as much. I love him, but it’s bittersweet. I don’t think I’d marry him if I have a do-over, and that makes me very sad. It’s not how I thought it would be when we married. It’s our loss. I stay not from fear. I chose this marriage. I know I could leave and remarry or not, and I would gain something I am missing now, but I would lose a lot too. I’m sometimes angry he stole the choice from me years ago, but what’s done is done. I mostly accept. I make no promises that I stay. Some day, I may reevaluate and decide that the calculus is different. I don’t know. I think Zugzwang described it well.

I don’t know that it will ever change for you and Walloped. He seems to be where I am. Maybe it’s a dealbreaker for you? I feel like this is the acceptance stage. My H and I talked a lot over the years. I’ve said things over and over again, trying to change...reality? So, with acceptance, there is nothing more to say. I know my H would like me to respect him more. I would like to too, but respect is earned.

Married- 10 Yrs
Me (BS)- 38
Him (WS)- 40
D Day- 6/2015
Kids - 3 (<10)

posts: 128   ·   registered: Jun. 11th, 2015
id 8447447
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 MrsWalloped (original poster member #62313) posted at 7:43 PM on Friday, October 4th, 2019

So many thoughtful posts! I have a lot to think about.

I think you’re all right that there is something there and it’s very like him to not tell me about it either because he’s being sensitive or because he’s trying to work through it. My own personality is that I sense it and of course blow it up in my head.

I don’t know if he’s reading my posts. In a way I hope he is. I did tell him I was going to be posting and he’s always allowed to read my posts, but no, we haven’t discussed it.

xhz700 and others - Thanks for reminding me that I have to let go and to stop trying to control the outcome. All I can do is work on me and show him who I am and who I’m trying to be.

Me: WW 47
My BH: Walloped 48
A: 3/15 - 8/15 (2 month EA, turned into 3 month PA)
DDay: 8/3/15
In R

posts: 769   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2018
id 8447456
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xhz700 ( member #44394) posted at 8:47 PM on Friday, October 4th, 2019

Why not get into it?

I am not Walloped, and I don't know you, but a big part of why I am now divorced is because I never really knew who my XWW was. I knew the person she wanted me to think she was, but I didn't know the real her. I am not sure if it would have made a difference in my situation, but I really would have liked to know everything, good and bad. What made her do it, where her pain was coming from, stuff like that.

Are you just trying to keep everything positive, and not show weakness? If so, I think that would be a mistake. We're all flawed. Knowledge of each other, good stuff and bad, is really what builds the kind of intimacy that you're talking about. I think that leads to the intimacy that you want.

Take off the filter. Take a chance.

Behold! The field in which I grow my fucks.

Lay thine eyes upon it, and thou shalt see that it is barren.

posts: 1586   ·   registered: Aug. 5th, 2014
id 8447497
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 MrsWalloped (original poster member #62313) posted at 9:18 PM on Friday, October 4th, 2019

No, that’s not it.

I have asked many times in different ways. I bring it up, I try to initiate conversation and sharing. I get brushed off and no reciprocity from an emotional connection place. It’s all reactive. And even then, when I try to find out if there’s something bothering him or try to get him to open up, I’m told there’s nothing to talk about.

So that’s why I’m confused. The subtle or unspoken messages are a lack of connection and intimacy, which is kinda why I started this thread. But the spoken messages are that everything is fine and that there isn’t any issue. But of course there is! Do I force him into a DMC about it? That’s why I mentioned my approach and this weird thing we have going on because I didn’t want to push to be respectful of his feelings and willingness to share. Or unwillingness I guess. It’s this dance I do. But is it the wrong approach? As his WW, is it okay to force the issue and hash it out?

Me: WW 47
My BH: Walloped 48
A: 3/15 - 8/15 (2 month EA, turned into 3 month PA)
DDay: 8/3/15
In R

posts: 769   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2018
id 8447521
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 9:44 PM on Friday, October 4th, 2019

As his WW, is it okay to force the issue and hash it out?

This is a very good question. Very good. And, I think the answer is "it depends".

First, I wouldn't recommend a new WW make a lot of demands. They would likely be skewed and they would be making them of a BS who is dealing with too many things that there is a ring of unfairness to that.

For someone like you - who is further out, by even her husband's account seems to feel that they are at least solidly in R, and have had some time to process it. I would probably ask this:

At some point the marriage does have to come back to a mutually beneficial situation for both the BS and the WS. I suspect it is on most levels for you all. But, if you are hushing up to keep him but aren't happy with the situation, then isn't that what led us here in the first place? What if he IS fine with how things are, but you really aren't? I think it's only fair to him to let him know that. The marriage belongs to both of you, you can't be expected (nor do I assume you really are) to forego all your needs and push down feelings to keep the peace.

You have to be prepared for the answers of course. He may feel like Zug's wife or some of the above posters. He may be working through some stuff and not really want to make you feel a certain way about it. But, it sounds like some of this is plain old fashioned conflict avoidance and maybe from just your side but maybe from his as well. I don't think you are going to resolve this feeling you have on your own, and for how long can you live in a relationship in which you have this feeling? I know in many ways you want to say "I love him, I am forever committed. I know that I messed up our relationship so I will just keep eating these other feelings until he's ready to...(insert whatever it is here)" But, are you being honest with yourself? I think if the answer is no, you can't continue indefinitely then you are doing yourself and him a disservice by not getting this to come to a bit of a head even if it's to say "I am not happy with how things are". I can only imagine that is a scary thing to say when you know YOU are the reason things are how they are. But, both things can be true. Maybe the statement is "I am committed, I love you, I will do whatever is needed. You should just know that I don't know how to do this right now. It's really scaring me and we have to talk about it." If nothing is bothering him like he claims, he needs to know that you two need to work together to bridge a gap in your own needs. Even if that need is a deeper reassurance.

I don't know what you mean by "force the issue". What would that look like to you? But, I think you have to decide how badly it's bothering you. If it's making you unhappy, do you feel you are in a place in the marriage to make requests?

H and I are in a different space right now, but I don't know the roller coaster ahead. I could say if something was making me feel unhappy, and he would be able to process that it's actually been part of my work to be able to speak up about it. So, it would be welcomed. I have no idea what that looks like for you and Walloped.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:48 PM, October 4th (Friday)]

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 8223   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8447539
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HardyRose ( member #55069) posted at 1:08 AM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

As his WW, is it okay to force the issue and hash it out?

As his WW you have the right to ask for this to be discussed. But your BS also has the right to chose not to be emotionally or sexually vulnerable with someone who has shown that they use his gift of vulnerability to hurt him.

You can discuss this as much as you like but you can’t force someone to trust or be vulnerable with you to a level that they aren’t comfortable with.

Your BS is trying to navigate a new deal with you. And for him that may not involve putting himself in the position where he can be Walloped again.

As a WW you absolute have the right to decide if the new marriage you are building is ok with you but you don’t get to force your BS to make a new marriage that isn’t “safe” for him.

posts: 923   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2016
id 8447619
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isitme24 ( member #43463) posted at 2:10 AM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

Mrs Walloped

I don't know a lot but I know that reconciling after an affair takes some giant leaps of faith for a BS.

1. Forgiveness

2. Acceptance

3. Trust

Those are the bridges across the giant chasm created by infidelity. No matter how hard you build from your side it won't work unless he is able to meet you in the middle.

isitme24

posts: 293   ·   registered: May. 18th, 2014   ·   location: Midwest
id 8447633
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gmc94 ( member #62810) posted at 3:59 AM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

BW here, who is a few months shy of 2 yrs and has WH that has not gotten to "R material", so take whatever grains of salt….

I want to echo the others that say something just changes for us, and changes in ways I'm not sure we ever get back. After dday we HAVE to build walls to protect ourselves, to lick our wounds, to figure out what the fuck happened to our lives - how and why they were imploded (by the person who was supposed to love us and be "safe" ), and then how we can heal and relate to the massive change.... to the person we are now and the person we now know our WS to be. Then with time (and I think this applies whether R or D or S, or even in limbo, depending on the pace of healing) we have to start dismantling the very wall that was once so necessary. Personally, I don't think I will EVER go back to zero wall when it comes to my WH, or any romantic partner for that matter. I don't see a time when my lizard brain would allow that to happen, as much as my executive brain may tell me it's OK. The trauma just reaches too damn deep. I think Zug’s post kind of hits on this.

It's like the WS and BS spent their entire relationship focused on doubles tennis as their shared hobby. The A and dday basically fractures the BS' elbow. The BS can do every damn thing right to heal: surgery, physical therapy, wear a brace, etc. The good news is they can still play tennis. And even better they can still play with their WS - the one that went all Tonya Harding and fractured the elbow. But even with all that work, their backhand may simply never be the same. There may be days or moments when the conditions are just right to hit the ball like they used to... but that is now the exception, and not the rule.

When one doubles player’s backhand is compromised, the game will never be the same as it was before the fracture. The players need to recognize and respect the weakness, and figure out where to find other strengths to make the game work – or be enjoyable - for both. And maybe it just won’t.

It’s not lacking as much as it is one sided. I think for our M to really grow we need to both work toward our emotional relationship. It should be both of us. And the same with sex. We were pretty even about this before my A, so I can’t help but assume it’s connected. I know, d-uh, right? But should I just assume this is the M we’ll have?

Whatever things were before the A seems to me like an unfair “baseline”. That M is dead. So, there's something about even referring to the "before" M that can hit a BS a bit askew (using the elbow analogy, it's like saying his backhand used to be awesome, when you know that well working elbow is no more).

I guess I’m kind of confused about why this is bothering you – or how this came to be. For instance, my reading of this thread (and hopefully I’m not missing something) sounds like you NOW want him to initiate sex. That he hasn’t done that since dday, but you now desire it. OK, then ask him. At this point I’d be shocked if you hadn’t worked on the “I feel” statements of basic communicating 101. So why is sharing your feelings (ie “I feel X” or “I want Y” ) somehow “forcing” anything? I honestly feel kind of dense here, as anyone sharing their feelings (or wants or needs) with their spouse is kind of a duh! thing (and I say that about my own WH, even tho we are S). So, I guess I'm wondering why the reluctance to share YOUR needs or wants? Why is that framed as "forcing"?

Is it possible that it's not your needs/wants that's bothering you - but the fear that stems from your sense that he's distant? That he's not telling you what's in his head - or rather, the fear about the story you are telling yourself about what's going on in his head?

Finally, what if this IS the “M we’ll have”? Is that a dealbreaker for you? Is that part of the fear?

Again, I'm not even 2yrs out and S, so grain of salt away, just my random thoughts while procrastinating on other stuff :)

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

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id 8447658
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Luna10 ( member #60888) posted at 10:43 AM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

There comes a point where the hope to somehow get back what you thought you had before the A dies off. There comes a point where acceptance sets in and the reality that what was lost will never return (if it was ever real). And at that point you still choose your marriage as a BS but some sort of apathy sets in. You still choose your marriage because you believe it’s the best choice given the calculus (remorseful WS, kids, a life built together) but it isn’t the marriage you expected to have. It’s better than before in certain areas, true. But you’ve lost something you treasured so much, the specialness of it all, you are brought down to earth: you are now two people who made the choice to age together because it made more sense than divorcing, rather than some romantic bullshit where you could not have chosen a better person to spend your life with.

And Walloped is right, when this moment comes there is nothing to talk about. The affair has been talked to death. The emotions were high and have now stabilised. The choice was made. You just live with it the best way you can.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 4:48 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]

Dday - 27th September 2017

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id 8447715
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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 1:40 PM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

As his WW, is it okay to force the issue and hash it out?

If you guys are still attending some sort of counselling, it might be a good platform to ask.....

As to being a WW, I would hazard a guess that Walloped may put a ‘f’ in front of it. From what he has posted, he seems to be quite proud of what you have achieved, and who you are now.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 1199   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8447739
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Lifeitself ( member #71057) posted at 2:33 PM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

So that’s why I’m confused. The subtle or unspoken messages are a lack of connection and intimacy

What other subtle messages is W sending you? Also I remember from both threads that you and W decided to tell the boys about your affair once they are old enough as you didn’t want them to learn from their sisters or others. I guess they are already teenagers by now. Did you come clean to them yet?

posts: 81   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2019   ·   location: UK
id 8447758
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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 3:12 PM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

Fooled13years has a good point. You are focusing on love. That might be what you want. Are you giving him what he wants? If it is respect, what can you do to show that instead? Try reading love and respect in the marriage. It is Christian base, but it still is a good read. I think it is spot on for how most men are like. You are busy showing love and intimacy. He might be more focused on respect. I know I would be focused on that more if my wife ever cheated on me. The loss of respect.

My wife describes it as a special intimacy lost. That can never be replaced. Some type of innocence in the marriage. I will never fully know how that feels. I try to imagine it as I feel about having the stain of cheater till I die. It will always be there and it changes things. For me it drives me more. For my wife I can imagine it changes how she loves me and the passion it brings. I think I would change in the respect area if she cheated on me. I just can't imagine you would ever get that innocent level of respect back. It is bound to change the intimacy level forever. You just have to learn how to accept the new marriage. Focus on what changed in a better way from the experience together.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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id 8447783
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 3:49 PM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

I want to make two quick points-

One I think what we are I overlooking is likely Mrs Walloped is concerned for him as much as she is for herself. Sometimes I worry about H and it has nothing to do with what it will mean for my own consequences and sometimes it’s both. It’s disheartening for you to want one thing for your bs and not know how to help him get there or knowing if he ever will.

I think there is some cause for being concerned for walloped- it does sound like he may be working through some things. He just went through day anniversary number four and it brought up a lot of feelings that he is probably trying to still work through. Also i was more concerned about a post in which he was talking about being triggered from a movie about an affair. He made a comment that concerned me about how he would really have some disgust if mrs walloped wanted to change the show because he would feel she had no right to feel embarrassed. It seemed out of grasp the reason she might change the show is that she hates infidelity as much as he does. I would t think that was weird if it was earlier in but by now I was surprised he wasn’t so convinced that is the case.I found there wasn’t a bridge there despite a few things I tried to explain. So there is probably a lot that may really be possible to address rather than permanently a fixture. Just because he might be having a hard time doesn’t mean it’s not surmountable. It doesn’t mean it is either. Now that it’s the weekend hopefully Mrs walloped will be able to find time with him to do some sorting. All the best to both of you. I hope walloped can open up because it’s lonely to hold things in and it’s not fun to feel isolated. If he isn’t having an issue, I believe you are Mrs Walloped and you might have to dig around to figure out what it was - because if it’s not him then it could be projection.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:52 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 8223   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8447798
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oldtruck ( member #62540) posted at 3:59 PM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

mrswalloped

The BH never forgets the PA.

Even decades later, they will read something,

see something, movie, that will make them recall

their WW PA. Even when the WW has done it all,

left nothing undone to recover the marriage.

The way a WW can never undo the sex with their AP

the BH can never not trigger. There is no statute

of limitations on triggering.

So when a FWW asks what's wrong and her BH responds

nothing it is because he does not want to talk

about it anymore. There is nothing that he has

not heard you say or not told you. If he was to

talk about the PA all he would see is the pain

that such a talk would cause you, his FWW doing

everything to be a good wife.

So when asked what's wrong the BH will say

nothing.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 10:00 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]

posts: 1420   ·   registered: Feb. 2nd, 2018
id 8447802
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BraveSirRobin ( member #69242) posted at 11:38 PM on Saturday, October 5th, 2019

So when a FWW asks what's wrong and her BH responds nothing it is because he does not want to talk about it anymore. There is nothing that he has not heard you say or not told you. If he was to talk about the PA all he would see is the pain that such a talk would cause you, his FWW doing everything to be a good wife.

If so, that's noble, but I'd argue that it's also misguided. The founding principles of marriage after infidelity are honesty and transparency. You can only get so far if only one partner in the marriage embodies those principles. As is being discussed here, the tricky part is identifying the point where it's reasonable for the WS to expect painful honesty on topics that the BH doesn't want to address, as opposed to the other way around.

Mrs. Walloped wants the full picture of what's going on in her own marriage. She recognizes that she might not like what she hears, but she still wants to know. At four years out, I think it's reasonable for her to want it, and to worry that conflict avoidance is not healthy. That being said, I'm only a year out myself, so I'm not speaking from experience.

WW/BW

posts: 3721   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8447945
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 MrsWalloped (original poster member #62313) posted at 1:08 AM on Sunday, October 6th, 2019

She recognizes that she might not like what she hears, but she still wants to know.

This really is what it’s all about for me. I’m not trying to force intimacy or vulnerability. If he’s working through things then that’s fine. If he’s just not going to get there which I totally understand then that’s fine too. Knowing will help me navigate our new M. There are new rules in our new M but I need to know if I’m projecting, if it’s soemthing he’s trying to figure out, if he’s comfortable where things are or if he wants something else. And my biggest concern is that if he’s working through things are is unhappy about something, then how can I help him assuming he wants my involvement? None of this is about my needs being met or pushing him into something he’s not willing or is unable to do. It’s what I’ve noticed and I’m asking because I’m worried there’s a lot there under the surface that he’s not sharing with me.

We didn’t get a chance to talk meaningfully today, but when we do I’m going to suggest some sort of counseling.

Me: WW 47
My BH: Walloped 48
A: 3/15 - 8/15 (2 month EA, turned into 3 month PA)
DDay: 8/3/15
In R

posts: 769   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2018
id 8447968
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strugglebus ( member #55656) posted at 4:56 AM on Sunday, October 6th, 2019

Also i was more concerned about a post in which he was talking about being triggered from a movie about an affair. He made a comment that concerned me about how he would really have some disgust if mrs walloped wanted to change the show because he would feel she had no right to feel embarrassed. It seemed out of grasp the reason she might change the show is that she hates infidelity as much as he does.

t/j HO, my husband is amazing. He has grown so SO much in the past 3 years. He is empathetic and wonderful through triggers and we communicate a LOT.

There is absolutely no way I can imagine believing he hates infidelity as much as I do. Just like I can't imagine him hating rape as much as I do. Unless you have experienced being on the receiving end of that form of abuse, it's flippant to imagine that you could have the same depth of feeling about it. /tj

Mrs. Walloped - all you can do is ask him if something is bothering him and tell him what you have noticed.

Often when I am working through something I don't say anything to my husband immediately. That's because I am still working through it and not at that point yet. Eventually I do come around but sometimes my husband has to ask and check in many times before I am ready

[This message edited by strugglebus at 10:58 PM, October 5th (Saturday)]

BS -DDay: 9/26/16- Double Betrayal

Happily reconciling.

Be True to your Word. Don't take things Personally. Don't Make Assumptions. Do Your Best.

posts: 2557   ·   registered: Oct. 18th, 2016
id 8448060
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 3:54 PM on Sunday, October 6th, 2019

I can understand that strugglebus - but when I want to change the channel because the show is too mythical about infidelity it’s because I am disgusted by it not because it makes me squirm in embarrassment. The response was to say something like poor whittle something rather and refusing to change the channel. So it just surprised me how it came across more than anything. It didn’t sound the way Walloped normally sounds. And this was just after d day anniversary in which he had a hard time with this year.. My intention was not to criticize walloped as I am sure it’s normal but more to say I have noticed a change in his posts.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:56 AM, October 6th (Sunday)]

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 8223   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8448160
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Unhinged ( member #47977) posted at 5:24 PM on Sunday, October 6th, 2019

I don’t know if he’s reading my posts. In a way I hope he is.

In a way? You're asking us how to build intimacy and yet you "hope" he reads this so he understands what you're going through?

Come on, MrsWalloped. You know the drill. If you want to build intimacy you start by being vulnerable. That just how it works, you know?

You can hope he reads what you've written to us, or... you can tell him. Which do you think will build more intimacy?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:26 AM, October 6th (Sunday)]

Married 2005
D-Day April, 2015
Divorced May, 2022

"The Universe is not short on wake-up calls. We're just quick to hit the snooze button." -Brene Brown

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id 8448194
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