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If you're divorcing then it's perfectly fine to set guidelines for communication. Her anger and hurt are no longer your concern. It's up to her to heal herself now.

Email communication only, keep emotions out of it and stick to facts. If that's too hard then communicate only through attorneys. Give her as generous of a settlement as you can. Then get yourself into therapy because you need it.

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[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:23 PM, December 27th (Friday)]

Mediators, attorneys are your best friend at this point.

Your lack of emotional response isn’t due because you’re a good dude, it’s due because any engagement, any contradiction, any “That’s not what you said yesterday” is simply another hack with the cleaver.

The disconnect you describe is based on expectations. Remove them from the deliverables needed in a divorce- Set clear expectations. Timelines, who completes what, format. These variables are all at play here- So when these are discussed, remove assumptions by being CRYSTAL CLEAR. Set guidelines at the outset of mediation/lawyer sessions:

“The purpose of this meeting is financial support. At the end of this meeting we should have x completed.”

I guess you're getting a divorce?

Because oh hell, that poor women deserve a break and some freedom. I just read your post here and I was already tired of dealing with you and she had to put up with that for decades.

Take it one day at a time.

Decide today not to react. Choose ambivalence when something arises. (I will not react with a hot temper) Set boundaries for yourself for the day. (I will only email or read messages or spreadsheets between the hours of 3-4). Instead, today is a great day to start something JUST FOR YOU. Something healthy. A new hobby. This will help to pass time of uncertainty and give you something to look forward to. Some peeps pick exercise. I chose art and painting.

Remember, YOU can only control YOU. no matter what, YOU are responsible for YOUR choices. Make the healthy choice. Sometimes, that is simply not reacting and taking care of ourself. Chin up. This too shall soon pass.

Thank you to all of you who have replied so candidly and honestly. I have posted in SI before with fake platitudes and misrepresentations of who I really am and how badly I think and act every day. This post is the real me - ego, selfish, defensive and arrogant to the end and devoid of empathy for the wonderful woman I destroyed. the scathing comments you gave are right - I am that asshole through and through. I have to abandon me and the way I have lived and think and change literally everything. I deserve nothing and have taken everything from her, and still rant like this and believe I have any authority to do so to her. I ruined her world, stole her reality, and continue to act with entitlement - I am a truly evil and awful monster. After yesterday, and reading all of your posts I know what I have to do and going to try to do this and maintain this course with humility. I sent her this note in a conversation about being agreeable with regard to plans moving forward:

"Full stop because it has to be agreeable to you and that's it. Nothing that is agreeable to me is going to be agreeable to you, it has to be the other way around with me agreeing with you. For any progress to be made by me I need to do nothing like I have done before because my way of doing and living is wrong. It won't solve everything, but it will make things better for all of you and that is what matters. So I abdicate and will do what you know is best for you and the kids. Custody, money, schedules, house repairs, everything. I am clearly not the decision-maker because I have proved over 47 years that my decisions are bad. I need to shut up and listen and observe and do what I am told."

Her response to that was that it was platitudes and bullshit. Rereading our hours long text conversation, and all of your posts, I believe this is the right way to act and be, and want to go down this path and change everything and stop trying to forcing my agenda, wants, desires, and opinions. I will fail repeatedly in doing this I know (I have already in a conversation later last night), but am I correct in saying that regardless of when I fail at being this way I need to get up and keep trying because this is the only way to change and be and live a better life and help her?

I think you have to be realistic and reasonable. One month after my last TT, I was a zombie. The rug was pulled under me. I was disoriented learning that half of my marriage had been a sham, that my H wasn’t who I thought I married. For your wife, it’s 26 years! How would you feel if you discovered that you have wasted 26 years of your life? Imagine you were in prison for 26 years and is just stepping out into the world again. Those years are gone and her future love life will also be a mess because of the damage. Wouldn’t that drive you insane? Yet, she is standing on her two feet, trying to organize finance. One month post TT, I couldn’t recall the first names of people I worked with for years. I think you are grossly underestimating the impact of trauma and you are underestimating her courage.

As a compassionate human being, your job is to help build her up, send her materials however she wants it without complaints, remind her of her strength, and physically stay away from her as much as possible. Make the divorce as easy and fast for her as possible. You owe her that much.

am I correct in saying that regardless of when I fail at being this way I need to get up and keep trying because this is the only way to change and be and live a better life and help her? am I correct in saying that regardless of when I fail at being this way I need to get up and keep trying because this is the only way to change and be and live a better life and help her?

Yes. But i think it is a bad idea to be so wordy. I was never married to tou and i want to scream reading this. You are taking the right steps. Ask her what she needs. Do it. And then get out of her life.

But after 26 years, i dont know why she would trust anything you do or say. Maybe talk about lawyers. And then you pay for everything at the end.

Now that you have had a chance to vent and feel sorry for yourself. Pick yourself up. Stop rinsing and repeating a cycle that clearly doesn't work. Get a fucking mediator and stop being disrespectful to your soon to be ex. She doesn't make sense. Join the club because years of multiple Ddays don't make much sense either. Stop any communications with her except through a mediator.

Full stop because it has to be agreeable to you and that's it. Nothing that is agreeable to me is going to be agreeable to you, it has to be the other way around with me agreeing with you. For any progress to be made by me I need to do nothing like I have done before because my way of doing and living is wrong. It won't solve everything, but it will make things better for all of you and that is what matters. So I abdicate and will do what you know is best for you and the kids. Custody, money, schedules, house repairs, everything. I am clearly not the decision-maker because I have proved over 47 years that my decisions are bad. I need to shut up and listen and observe and do what I am told."

Man, that entire post was so passive aggressive. She sees through it. She has lived with this for years. Just stop. It really sounds like a temper tantrum, feel sorry, hide behind the door pouting with your arms crossed type of shit. Waiting for her to say, I am sorry-what is wrong. Is this how you got your way all your life? Passive aggressive manipulations? Pointing out how horrible you are and getting other people to hopefully say you just aren't that bad?

Just say, you are sorry. You are going to fix this and get a mediator because you don't know how to function and cope.

Reply in text with the following 7 words.

I will have a mediator contact you.

Press send and then stop the rest of this crap.

Somebody here told me once to read up on the effects of trauma on the brain. I am passing that suggestion on to you.

PTSD seriously fucks with the brain's ability to do much of anything sensical when it is activated in a perceived dangerous situation. And guess what? You ARE a dangerous situation, there is no perceived about it. And she is coming to terms with the reality that she has been in perpetual danger for 26 years.

You traumatized your wife. You have no right to be getting angry with her or to expect ANYTHING she does/says to make sense to you if it doesn't line up with your desired outcome.

I get that is easier to say and more difficult to live. I struggle with my own anger and frustration still some days with how my BW reacts to me when I don't get the outcome I want. It has taken years to be able to get to a place of understanding exactly what my infidelity did to her brain, and still sometimes I get frustrated when it feels like she "doesn't make sense" when I think I'm doing "what I'm supposed to". And that's the issue. You aren't going to get the outcome you want no matter what you do. You have to stop wanting a specific outcome entirely.

If you can't keep your frustrations and rage in check, you absolutely have to step back and away from the situations that activate your own broken brain patterns. Get a mediator and stop trying to communicate with her at all. You will absolutely make EVERYTHING worse if you continue like this.

And if you haven't already, look into IC, anger management, or CBT therapy. Or all of them. Awareness is the first step. You are aware that you are not ok and you want to be a better person. So now DO something about it.

Today is our 25th Anniversary - A day more painful to her than any because of what I have done and and that it represents 25 years I have stolen from her because if my cheating and lies. In reading all of your responses and looking honestly at what I have done to her I am at a total loss for what do for her. I can only imagine the pain she is in right now and want to reach out and tell her I am sorry for ruining her life and stealing away the good life she could have had. I have apologized many many times before and they are all platitudes that only hurt her more. How do you extend regret and remorse to someone whom you have hurt so badly? Is there any way to help her today?

You extend “regret and remorse” by having a mediator contact her.

Everything else you say is indeed platitudes and white noise.

Edited for typo

[This message edited by AnnieOakley at 9:24 AM, December 29th (Sunday)]

Wantstorepair you asked,

I have apologized many many times before and they are all platitudes that only hurt her more. How do you extend regret and remorse to someone whom you have hurt so badly?

And you received a response,

Wantstorepair, every instinctive/ego reaction you are having and going to have for the next 6-9 months will be wrong and worsen the situation.

There are at least two levels of fog for the WS that I have observed through SI posts and my own WS. One is the fog of the "love" for the AP and the reality that it was a farce. So that has to go away first. Then comes the fog of the entitlement and misunderstanding about regret and remorse. That took my WS YEARS to overcome and is at the crux of the responses to you here.

You don't deserve anything from her - absolutely nothing. She doesn't owe you anything the least of which is being okay to help you feel better about what you did to her. Stop wanting her to be okay so you feel better. That isn't her job - to make you feel better. She is trying to survive as her world just got destroyed.

What can you do? Own it all. That doesn't mean admitting it. You can say what you want - yes I cheated, yes I had APs, yes I [fill_in_the_blank]. It means empathy, remorse, the actions that put your needs completely aside for the sake of her well being. You cannot do that right now. So you are/will make it worse. Back off - give her what she wants because she is in too much pain to trust anybody not just you. Please understand the gravity of that statement. You have altered her ability to have safe relationships with anyone right now.

The relationship has shifted. You had control - you manipulated her for years. She is in the driver's seat now and you need to give up your needs. If you cannot, because you don't feel it, then stop. Do as others suggest. Give her what she needs and don't pick apart little nuances about her reaction that you feel are not appropriate.

Give in to stopping the control - you don't have it anymore because she is woke.

I must be a weird BS as in reading your post I didn't see a lot of 2x4s needed - all I saw was a BS who was hurt, angry, and lashing out because they feel entitled to do so. Unfortunately I have no advice for you as to how to deal with it going forward except to say that (most likely) the anger will fade.

I honestly want to agree with those who are saying "deal with it because you created this mess" and on the other hand tell those who are somehow trying to argue that your BS is acting rationally, or that you are acting incorrectly in relation to THE EMAILS AND SPREADSHEETS (the rest of it - the attempting to force your way into plans etc is problematic to say the least - the first paragraph is NOT what I am talking about here).

What do I think is happening in regards to communicating? You already know when you said:

Does anyone else have perspective and ideas on how to better communicate with someone who is so hurt and destroyed that they aren't making any damn sense?

Your BS is angry and hurt and quite honestly likely does not want to be rational. Her action (to me) seems like a conscious or even unconscious attempt to push your buttons and to give you the big middle finger without saying so. You can't say you want information quicker on one hand and then say you don't want it via email on the other and then get pissed about it. Would have it been better had she said: "Hey, I see you did this but I would like a hard copy - please put it in the mail asap" but the fact that she is unwilling to just print the thing out if that is what she wanted...um, yeah, it's contradictory and meant to frustrate you on some level.

All that being said, I don't know what else happened - I might change my mind about some of this - but to answer your question - there is likely no making things immediately better with someone who doesn't want to play along. So how do you deal with it? Focus on your own reaction and try to let it not bother you, remind yourself that you created this mess (as you have already said), and try to be patient I guess. Killing bad behavior with kindness often is the best medicine in these situations. Do the best you can to get through it without escalation (on your end - you can't control her of course) and move forward.

You describe yourself as a total POS. Do you want to change from betrayer to good partner?

I see a possible desire to change in the name you gave yourself, but your rant seems to be about changing your W, not yourself.

If you want to change yourself, I think you'll get some support.

Stop wanting her to be okay so you feel better. That isn't her job - to make you feel better. She is trying to survive as her world just got destroyed.

This is spot on IMO.

Your BS is angry and hurt and quite honestly likely does not want to be rational. Her action (to me) seems like a conscious or even unconscious attempt to push your buttons and to give you the big middle finger

and

someone who doesn't want to play along.

TISL, I'm gonna assume you are serious here, but man, those are some pretty hurtful words from a fellow BS, and frankly outright harmful when said to a WS who clearly does not "get it" and has been abusing his BS for, what, 25 YEARS.

Would you say the same thing if instead of lying to her for 25 years, he had been punching her in the kidneys? Would she be the one to blame (and maybe I stand corrected, but it's how I took your post) for behaving like a human who has been traumatized?

Your post makes some pretty giant assumptions about the reasons for another BS's conduct - without making a SINGLE mention of TRAUMA. And it communicates those assumptions in black & white, without even the slightest inkling that it's -even remotely -possible that she was in the midst of a huge trigger on the eve of their 25th anniversary. FWIW, I hit that "milestone" recently, and trust me, the 25yr mark with a WS who is still acting like an asshat ain't easy, and just bc I managed to get through it devoid of complete crazy does not mean I could presume to say that another BS who did not, somehow feels "ENTITLED" to experience trauma in ways that are problematic. Telling a WS that his BS (who I would bet is suffering from some serious fucking PTSD, given what HE has described - we don't even know what she would say) does not WANT to be rational implies that there is some learning to do about PTSD and its effects. It's like saying "I got over my rape without acting like a psych patient, so she should be able to as well".

And telling an abuser that his victim is goading him? Doesn't strike me as very compassionate. Rather, it's a huge pile of bullshit and totally counterproductive.

Response from BW today when I said I am trying to understand what I am doing wrong in our conversations and with my actions so I can change: "You can’t, because you think you aren’t doing anything wrong while you are being an arrogant uncooperative defensive justifying minimizing asshole controlling the narrative trying to achieve your desired outcome"

ISSF you spoke out letting go of control, and BW has many times too, and I am trying to figure out what I am doing to retain control. your post makes sense and I think the answer is "everything", everything I am doing is trying to get control of the situation I created in order to make myself feel better - not making about her and what she needs.. thanks for points about it not being her job to make me feel better. she and you are spot on about that. I have to stop being a selfish narcissist.

WantsTo - there's something about your posts that remind me of an old Seinfeld episode, where George basically did the opposite of whatever he thought he should do, and kept coming out smelling like a rose. I mention this bc IME we all can have trouble stopping and checking in with ourselves sometimes. So - it's not like 'do the opposite' of your gut (like George did in the show), but it IS like 'stop and check the gut before action'. I guess it's another form of mindfulness.

I'm a BS, but my suspicion is that a WS has spent some time (obviously varies from person to person) doing all they can to turn off their gut, to turn off their feelings, as listening to that part of them brings pain or prevents them from engaging in wayward thoughts/behaviors. My own WH has probably spent a lifetime (and certainly the last 20+ years) shutting off feelings that he's judged as "bad", whether its anger or pain or lots of stuff in between. This has left him (a) having no clue what he even is feeling (it was tough for him to be an over 60, well educated man who needed a 'feelings chart' to have a conversation) and (b) needing to second guess his 'gut' (which he still cannot do - is absolutely a factor in why we are S and not "in R" ).

It's like Jiminy Cricket and "always let your conscience be your guide". If you spend enough time rationalizing away the conscience, it's not in a good place to be a guide. It needs to be retrained to become the conscience that the WS thought they had - even while engaging in selfish, hurtful, destructive behaviors. And I'd guess that it's hard for a WS to see/accept that their gut is no longer a reliable barometer (there's a line in "High Fidelity" where John Cusak is talking about his history and whether he should listen to his gut, and says "I've been listening to my gut since I was 14 years old, and frankly speaking, I've come to the conclusion that my guts have shit for brains." I've thought about that line a lot since dday)

As I ponder this, I wonder if this is why empathy is such a BFD after dday. If your conscience has gone to sh*t, then empathy needs to take over where your own 'gut' or conscience has taken a walk? The idea being that by finding empathy and the ability to perceive the wrong from the perspective of the wronged, the WS is also rebuilding their own inner compass, or conscience. I dunno, but it seems something to consider.

I can't speak for YOUR BW, but I can say that as I approach the 2yr mark of dday, I'm exhausted and hurt. I cry and shake regularly. Like you, my WH wants to do "something" in those moments. What he does not understand is that a back rub or an "I'm sorry" in those moments were what I needed 2 years ago. At this point, what I need is real CHANGE - lasting change, consistent change, change that is tangible TO ME (and not simply in his own mind). Anything less is just more bologna to me.

My WH recently saw a CSAT who recommended the book "out of the doghouse". It is written in a straighforward way and seems to be opening up a pathway or two for him. It was available in audiobook from our library. So far, I'd recommend it.

wantstorepair - it is all about seeking your value extrinsically. That's why you had the affair. And now that you did this and got caught, you are feeling even worse than before (funny how this turns on itself). So, you are even more needy because now you are at risk of losing her by your own hands. So you figure, perhaps subconsciously, that you can nice her to loving you. You can't. But the only thing that will do is put more burden on her to love you on your terms. That's not her job. You need to nice her because you love her and want to see her happy not because you want to be safe. She knows the difference, believe me.

...today when I said I am trying to understand what I am doing wrong in our conversations and with my actions so I can change...

Why is it her job to tell you how to change? Stop asking that of her. Stop making her tell you the litmus test of what is right and wrong.

Maybe I can say it another way. If you do as she says and she is happy then she has to keep telling you what to do to get that response. If she is not happy after you do as she says then it is her fault that she is not happy. You see how that works?

What is your job? What is your responsibility for you? Why do you need her to tell you? She is buried in trauma - real, palpable trauma. She cannot think like she used to, she cannot function like she used to, nothing looks the same, tastes the same, feels the same. She cannot and should not help you because she is drowning. You are asking her, while she is drowning, to give you a life boat. It's too much and you are getting a reaction that tells you as such.

If I may and as gently as possible, your comments come off as if you feel sorry for yourself. That nothing you can do can make her happy and she makes you feel badly with her comments. Nope...she's not having it at all. You have to fix you. That's what she's looking for as she tries to figure out how to breath.